As some of you know Im running a Touque Flyte behind my Gen 3 in my Landrover 110
I took it out of the weekend to race
I basically stripped the planetary gearset in the second river crossing I did
Im now concerned that Ive made the wrong decision regarding a gearbox
Originally When I purchased it I was told tihs is about the strongest landrover box around
Does anybody have any ideas??
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Touqueflyte strength????
Moderator: Micka
TF727 are very beef. I'm selling my spare one (from behind a Val 360)soon coz too much stuffing about to get him into the Jeep..like a serious streeeeeeetching 
Some TF info : http://www.allpar.com/mopar/torqueflite.html
Some TF info : http://www.allpar.com/mopar/torqueflite.html
97 TJ [i]Goatsack[/i]
TF727 are very beef. I'm selling my spare one (from behind a Val 360)soon coz too much stuffing about to get him into the Jeep..like a serious streeeeeeetching
Some TF info : http://www.allpar.com/mopar/torqueflite.html
Some TF info : http://www.allpar.com/mopar/torqueflite.html
97 TJ [i]Goatsack[/i]
Just "finished" the Gascoyne Dash which would have to be one of the hardest races Ive been in
Even the OBC competitors from WA that went in it said it was very hard and a much harder endurance event than the OBC
Anyway the torqueflite stuffed it again on day 2 same thing or similiar. This tiime Ive got a noisy 1st gear and no second and reverse works fine I broke it going up a steep rocky hill in 1st high and it changed to 2nd at full noise. The motor simply doesnt stall and it doesnt feel like it has to go into low range??
Am I just expecting to much from this box???? Its had a crap load of money spent on it with heavy duty clutches, steel cased gears, big torque converter, oil coolers etc
Ive spoken to people here in WA but most are at a loss. Most builders keep refering to drag cars
Ive tried to expalin this is completly different ie Long hrs or driving over rough terrian the car is nearly two tonnes climbs hills and is double diff locked
Im wondering if the box cant take the weight of the car going up a hill and deal with the traction that the JT2s put down
Is there anybody in the East that I should be talking to or getting them to build my gearbox??
My only other thought is to look at a turbo 400 ( i beleive they are of similiar strength and may not be any better) or go a manual say a tremec or something out of a chevy truck
Coverting to manual will only be a last resort due to $$$
Whats your thoughts
Even the OBC competitors from WA that went in it said it was very hard and a much harder endurance event than the OBC
Anyway the torqueflite stuffed it again on day 2 same thing or similiar. This tiime Ive got a noisy 1st gear and no second and reverse works fine I broke it going up a steep rocky hill in 1st high and it changed to 2nd at full noise. The motor simply doesnt stall and it doesnt feel like it has to go into low range??
Am I just expecting to much from this box???? Its had a crap load of money spent on it with heavy duty clutches, steel cased gears, big torque converter, oil coolers etc
Ive spoken to people here in WA but most are at a loss. Most builders keep refering to drag cars
Ive tried to expalin this is completly different ie Long hrs or driving over rough terrian the car is nearly two tonnes climbs hills and is double diff locked
Im wondering if the box cant take the weight of the car going up a hill and deal with the traction that the JT2s put down
Is there anybody in the East that I should be talking to or getting them to build my gearbox??
My only other thought is to look at a turbo 400 ( i beleive they are of similiar strength and may not be any better) or go a manual say a tremec or something out of a chevy truck
Coverting to manual will only be a last resort due to $$$
Whats your thoughts
If you get a built turbo 400 you shouldn't have a problem as the desert racers in the US use these and they don't seem to have problems with them. In terms of strength its much easier to get an auto to handle high horsepower and torque compared to a manual.
As for shock loading any drag car will put a auto box through its paces with that (0-100 in under 3 seconds anyone). Is there plenty of cooling for the box, prehaps its getting too hot causing the parts to let go??? Id say if its built tough for drag racing and given plenty of cooling it should last a long time.
Have you considered using the 4l80e or 4l60e (the boxes that originally came with this motor). The 4l80e cost a few $$ but is built to take lots of toque and handle the big 4wds that use them in the US. With a bit more cooling an a bit of an upgrade it should work fine for what your doing. All the street cars that have high horspower with the gen3 have coped fine with the lower torque capacity 4l60e and their getting amazing amounts of power and torque and using it regulary (not as harsh conditions as you though).
I agree with Michael though, that is you got a sus boxas it doesn't sound like you've got an extreme motor (ie 450kw and 700Nm). Get a copy of Perth Street Car as this has all the top name box builders in it. Hope you get it fixed.
PS you got any info of putting the gen3 into the 110. Wouldn't mind putting one in the disco if I can't find any reasonable upgrades for the rover. Got quoted upwards of 10 000 just to get a 4.6 put in by jordan rover tech. I would rather spend another 5g and put in a gen 3. Just don't know if the thing will fit
??
edit** just looked at some of your previous posts, no pics unfortunately, sound like you've got a tuff car but
As for shock loading any drag car will put a auto box through its paces with that (0-100 in under 3 seconds anyone). Is there plenty of cooling for the box, prehaps its getting too hot causing the parts to let go??? Id say if its built tough for drag racing and given plenty of cooling it should last a long time.
Have you considered using the 4l80e or 4l60e (the boxes that originally came with this motor). The 4l80e cost a few $$ but is built to take lots of toque and handle the big 4wds that use them in the US. With a bit more cooling an a bit of an upgrade it should work fine for what your doing. All the street cars that have high horspower with the gen3 have coped fine with the lower torque capacity 4l60e and their getting amazing amounts of power and torque and using it regulary (not as harsh conditions as you though).
I agree with Michael though, that is you got a sus boxas it doesn't sound like you've got an extreme motor (ie 450kw and 700Nm). Get a copy of Perth Street Car as this has all the top name box builders in it. Hope you get it fixed.
PS you got any info of putting the gen3 into the 110. Wouldn't mind putting one in the disco if I can't find any reasonable upgrades for the rover. Got quoted upwards of 10 000 just to get a 4.6 put in by jordan rover tech. I would rather spend another 5g and put in a gen 3. Just don't know if the thing will fit
??
edit** just looked at some of your previous posts, no pics unfortunately, sound like you've got a tuff car but
Those Torqueflytes are strong, but they can overheat. I've cooked mine.
For many years they were the only auto than Aston Martin could fit. Anything else just broke.
My 1972 AM is a 2 ton, 160 mph car. 5.4 litres of top end power, but not so much low down torque.
Anyway, the auto would not take too many laps of Amaroo or Eastern Creek before overheating. It was a tossup whether the brakes or trans would cook first.
This thing has serious grunt. I don't know how it compares to a GenIII, but to do 140 mph down Eastern Creek's main straight, in a heavy road car, is big torque. The only manual trans that could handle it at the time was one particular ZF 5 speed, at $25000 per gearbox.
So I'd say your a TF 727 should be up to a Gen III. I assume you've got a shift kit in it. If its been rebuilt with a hi-stall converter, put a std one back in, you'll get more grunt out in low speed situations, and by eliminating some of the slippage, you'll eliminate some of that heat.
Its a lazy lump, but as others have said, it shouldn't break.
Regards
Max P
For many years they were the only auto than Aston Martin could fit. Anything else just broke.
My 1972 AM is a 2 ton, 160 mph car. 5.4 litres of top end power, but not so much low down torque.
Anyway, the auto would not take too many laps of Amaroo or Eastern Creek before overheating. It was a tossup whether the brakes or trans would cook first.
This thing has serious grunt. I don't know how it compares to a GenIII, but to do 140 mph down Eastern Creek's main straight, in a heavy road car, is big torque. The only manual trans that could handle it at the time was one particular ZF 5 speed, at $25000 per gearbox.
So I'd say your a TF 727 should be up to a Gen III. I assume you've got a shift kit in it. If its been rebuilt with a hi-stall converter, put a std one back in, you'll get more grunt out in low speed situations, and by eliminating some of the slippage, you'll eliminate some of that heat.
Its a lazy lump, but as others have said, it shouldn't break.
Regards
Max P
Stereo by Simex!
Stuee
One of the reasons I went with the gen 3 is that is was cheaper overall than a worked 4.6 for the horse power etc
Look at some of the TVR rovers etc you talking 20K plus for an engine
I put a 4.6lt in my old disco. The additional costs were Haltech, Cam, Heads etc and I still didnt get the HP or the Torque of a Gen 3
In the members sec there is some posts of my build up
With the Gen 3 I was able use the standard computer etc which saved a fair bit of money
Rovercraft helped put the motor in so if you are going to do a gen 3 I would ring them and find out what $ etc
I know City Motors is selling brand new gen 3s at the moment for about 6K this is very comparable to a rover 4.6 in terms of $ but I reckon you get a lot more
Go for the Gen 3 I just hope you diffs are up to it
Do suppose you know of anyone in PErth I should be talking to about my Torqueflite?
One of the reasons I went with the gen 3 is that is was cheaper overall than a worked 4.6 for the horse power etc
Look at some of the TVR rovers etc you talking 20K plus for an engine
I put a 4.6lt in my old disco. The additional costs were Haltech, Cam, Heads etc and I still didnt get the HP or the Torque of a Gen 3
In the members sec there is some posts of my build up
With the Gen 3 I was able use the standard computer etc which saved a fair bit of money
Rovercraft helped put the motor in so if you are going to do a gen 3 I would ring them and find out what $ etc
I know City Motors is selling brand new gen 3s at the moment for about 6K this is very comparable to a rover 4.6 in terms of $ but I reckon you get a lot more
Go for the Gen 3 I just hope you diffs are up to it
Do suppose you know of anyone in PErth I should be talking to about my Torqueflite?
Sorry I don't have any personal experience with any of the high power tranny builders here in perth (not yet needed to 
). If you like I can post up some info of various shops to save you buying the magazine if you like. Will just have to wait till I get home tonight.
I've actually been reading Perth Street Car for about a year now as you can see what are the workshops that put out the quality cars compared to say an eastern states mag. When I can afford to get some decent stuff done I'll be looking in there to see who does the good jobs and the normal jobs.
Cheers Stuee.
PS by the way the pictures in your last threads have been wiped when the server went down I think, but don't bother posting them back up I have a pretty good idea about what was going on.
In terms of diffs I would be upgrading them first (limetless options from the look of things), and possibly a brake upgrade before the engine.
). If you like I can post up some info of various shops to save you buying the magazine if you like. Will just have to wait till I get home tonight.
I've actually been reading Perth Street Car for about a year now as you can see what are the workshops that put out the quality cars compared to say an eastern states mag. When I can afford to get some decent stuff done I'll be looking in there to see who does the good jobs and the normal jobs.
Cheers Stuee.
PS by the way the pictures in your last threads have been wiped when the server went down I think, but don't bother posting them back up I have a pretty good idea about what was going on.
In terms of diffs I would be upgrading them first (limetless options from the look of things), and possibly a brake upgrade before the engine.
spoke with a hotrod and drag car tranny builder today...
he reckons your box from what you have said here, was a case of long service intervals, overheating and/or pre existing damage ..
as for shock loading... he laughed and said that the shock loading encountered by 4wheelers in moderately powered vehicles.. i.e small block V8's, is no where near the amount experienced by drag cars at take off and during the drag..most have full manual conversions and are flat out on the loud pedal slamming from gear to gear... and these are guys running big blocks with tons more power than most if not all 4x4's/buggies out there...
So... his suggestion was to look in local drag mags.. and do some research online...
he reckons your box from what you have said here, was a case of long service intervals, overheating and/or pre existing damage ..
as for shock loading... he laughed and said that the shock loading encountered by 4wheelers in moderately powered vehicles.. i.e small block V8's, is no where near the amount experienced by drag cars at take off and during the drag..most have full manual conversions and are flat out on the loud pedal slamming from gear to gear... and these are guys running big blocks with tons more power than most if not all 4x4's/buggies out there...
So... his suggestion was to look in local drag mags.. and do some research online...
Home now so the people out Perth Street car are
(Specialist Tran only)
Pefect Transmissions
9494 1418
General tranny specialist. Don't show much in the add. But don't judge a book by its cover.
DTM Transmissions
9249 9658
These guys built eddy tassone's gearbox. Behind a 1000RWHP ttV8. Seem to be more strength orientated than general work.
From my reading and browsing on performance car forums its seems these guys are probly the most reputable mob in Perth.
Conerter Services
9472 3007
These guys just do torque converters and may be able to do one for your ty[pe of racing???
All Fast Torque converters
9249 3066
Same as above
Just about every engine building place also does transmissions too but theres to many for me to write out at this time of night. If none of these guys help get the mag and try some others. Also because your not dealing with huge horspower, just a standard gen3, see if they can give you some sort of waranty. If they truly did a good job they shouldn't have to worry about it breaking behind something like a gen3.
(Specialist Tran only)
Pefect Transmissions
9494 1418
General tranny specialist. Don't show much in the add. But don't judge a book by its cover.
DTM Transmissions
9249 9658
These guys built eddy tassone's gearbox. Behind a 1000RWHP ttV8. Seem to be more strength orientated than general work.
From my reading and browsing on performance car forums its seems these guys are probly the most reputable mob in Perth.
Conerter Services
9472 3007
These guys just do torque converters and may be able to do one for your ty[pe of racing???
All Fast Torque converters
9249 3066
Same as above
Just about every engine building place also does transmissions too but theres to many for me to write out at this time of night. If none of these guys help get the mag and try some others. Also because your not dealing with huge horspower, just a standard gen3, see if they can give you some sort of waranty. If they truly did a good job they shouldn't have to worry about it breaking behind something like a gen3.
Maxtd5def wrote:Those Torqueflytes are strong, but they can overheat. I've cooked mine.
I remember overheating mine at Fraser Island years ago when I had my 84 Rangie. Never had a wiff of burnt auto trans oil before that incident, but will never forget it in a hurry.
Strong box, but no place in front of a 3.5 Rangie
Trav
Land Rover- The Collingwood of 4WD's!!!!
Just got my Torqueflite back
It was the sprag
Im no gearbox expert but I know I had the bolt in type for extra strength
Apparently these things break from slamming gears back ie 2nd to 1st
I havent been doing that at all however my shifter is a little out of wack its a B & M Quicksilver so Im wondering if thats it
Ive also changed the touque converter from 13" to 11" its much smoother in the changes now
Any suggestions for the bung sprag???
It was the sprag
Im no gearbox expert but I know I had the bolt in type for extra strength
Apparently these things break from slamming gears back ie 2nd to 1st
I havent been doing that at all however my shifter is a little out of wack its a B & M Quicksilver so Im wondering if thats it
Ive also changed the touque converter from 13" to 11" its much smoother in the changes now
Any suggestions for the bung sprag???
Hi,
a few years ago we used to build the TF 727 for racing, this entailed a whole host of mods, some bought in, some our own design, to give you are idea :
raybestos clutch plates and bands
stock converter, small one makes too much heat
Art Carr 'Z' gate shifter
Art Carr kit to modify valve body for higher pressures and full manual control
bolt in rear sprag
Art Carr steel planetary gear set (not Ali)
now the clever stuff !
turn down and press on a phosfer bronze bush and remachine to allow more oil to the rear stator that the rear drum spins on,
turn ali rear piston and plunger parts and rework valve body to let the rear band come off hydrolically as opposed to the stock spring which is too slow and allows the rear band to fight the front band and overheat when shifting fast,
rework oil cooler return using a 1 bar check valve so all oil over 1 bar is rerouted through the rear casing to the rear drum bush mentioned above,
always use huge oil coolers, not mounted too high so as to avoid air locks,
a few years ago we used to build the TF 727 for racing, this entailed a whole host of mods, some bought in, some our own design, to give you are idea :
raybestos clutch plates and bands
stock converter, small one makes too much heat
Art Carr 'Z' gate shifter
Art Carr kit to modify valve body for higher pressures and full manual control
bolt in rear sprag
Art Carr steel planetary gear set (not Ali)
now the clever stuff !
turn down and press on a phosfer bronze bush and remachine to allow more oil to the rear stator that the rear drum spins on,
turn ali rear piston and plunger parts and rework valve body to let the rear band come off hydrolically as opposed to the stock spring which is too slow and allows the rear band to fight the front band and overheat when shifting fast,
rework oil cooler return using a 1 bar check valve so all oil over 1 bar is rerouted through the rear casing to the rear drum bush mentioned above,
always use huge oil coolers, not mounted too high so as to avoid air locks,
Dave
www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk
www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk
David,
welcome to Outer Limits.
Its a pleasure to have you onboad, I hope you stay around your knowledge will be greatly apreciated on here.
regards
Michael.
welcome to Outer Limits.
Its a pleasure to have you onboad, I hope you stay around your knowledge will be greatly apreciated on here.
regards
Michael.
Mitsubishi 2010 NT DID Pajero wagon, Factory rear diff lock, Dual batteries, ARB bar, winch, Mt ATZ 4 rib tyres.
1986 RR.
Custom suspension links etc.
HSV 215 engine.
4.3 diffs.
1986 RR.
Custom suspension links etc.
HSV 215 engine.
4.3 diffs.
Yep just blew another one up
This time its a different thing....Heat
It was running at 160c all day while racing. Ive got two coolers on it but they are located in the tray so they obviously arent getting enough cool air through them
Looking at running 3x huge coolers on top of the rear braces on the roll bar and a separate oil pump to pump the oil with one way valves to avoid airlocks
Going to a full manual valve body as well
Any other ideas on heat besides what ashtrans said???
This time its a different thing....Heat
It was running at 160c all day while racing. Ive got two coolers on it but they are located in the tray so they obviously arent getting enough cool air through them
Looking at running 3x huge coolers on top of the rear braces on the roll bar and a separate oil pump to pump the oil with one way valves to avoid airlocks
Going to a full manual valve body as well
Any other ideas on heat besides what ashtrans said???
this is race no 5 and rebuild no5
Im already using fans but if its in a vacum in the tray they will still suck little air (or so Ive been told)
I will be going to a t400 if something happens again
The trouble with the t400 is the converstion to the lt230. Ive been told this could be a weak point. all the things we are doing at the moment could be used with a t400 anyway
The oil pump Im using is the same one the v8 supercars run to cool their manuals so I cant see why it wouldnt work if I go to a manual either
The shame of it was that we were kicking some arse and it was a national championship of over at Hyden but not to worry thats racing
Im already using fans but if its in a vacum in the tray they will still suck little air (or so Ive been told)
I will be going to a t400 if something happens again
The trouble with the t400 is the converstion to the lt230. Ive been told this could be a weak point. all the things we are doing at the moment could be used with a t400 anyway
The oil pump Im using is the same one the v8 supercars run to cool their manuals so I cant see why it wouldnt work if I go to a manual either
The shame of it was that we were kicking some arse and it was a national championship of over at Hyden but not to worry thats racing
If you ran a manual what would it be. Just the standard 4spd?The strength is in question as it has some sort of shaft that joins the two
Some 4wds that are lighter and dont run as much horsepower have been blowing transmissions for years. It seems to be the biggest thing in my class of offroad racing. The autos seem to work well when heat is kept at bay but mostly turbo 400s in 2wd hiluxs etc
As for manuals my mate who has a similiar set up have blown all the rover cases 4 speed & 5 speed Santana etc ( he gets two races out of a santana). Nissan GQ not even a race
So hes now looking a the manual out of the Suburban but its a big heavy box he reckons even heavier than the Nissan GQ box agin the adaptation to the LT 230 is a problem
Some 4wds that are lighter and dont run as much horsepower have been blowing transmissions for years. It seems to be the biggest thing in my class of offroad racing. The autos seem to work well when heat is kept at bay but mostly turbo 400s in 2wd hiluxs etc
As for manuals my mate who has a similiar set up have blown all the rover cases 4 speed & 5 speed Santana etc ( he gets two races out of a santana). Nissan GQ not even a race
So hes now looking a the manual out of the Suburban but its a big heavy box he reckons even heavier than the Nissan GQ box agin the adaptation to the LT 230 is a problem
Are you using an LT230 behind the TF727, with no problems concerning the connection between them?
I'm not familiar with the adaptor used between T400 and LT230, but I would have thought it should be as strong as the 10 spline spud shaft into the LT230 (same as TF727 to LT230).
What about a divorced LT230 with double cardin joint between? Are you running 110 wheelbase?
What are you blowing up in LT95?
These are strong boxes except for lubrication to transfer case intermediate shaft bearings and the cross shaft and thrust washers in the centre diff. The t/c intermediate shaft can be converted to taper roller bearings. A one piece cross shaft and diff lock should solve centre diff issues. Then they should be stronger than LT230.
I'm not familiar with the adaptor used between T400 and LT230, but I would have thought it should be as strong as the 10 spline spud shaft into the LT230 (same as TF727 to LT230).
What about a divorced LT230 with double cardin joint between? Are you running 110 wheelbase?
What are you blowing up in LT95?
These are strong boxes except for lubrication to transfer case intermediate shaft bearings and the cross shaft and thrust washers in the centre diff. The t/c intermediate shaft can be converted to taper roller bearings. A one piece cross shaft and diff lock should solve centre diff issues. Then they should be stronger than LT230.
John
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