Stub axles for 30/35 spline.

[ISUZUROVER]

I have been thinking of possible stub axle sources for 30/35 spline, since boring a 30 spline stub will weaken it and JM 35 spline stubs are very $$$.

The two options I have considered are: Machining your own from 4340 tube, after welding the tube to a bored out factory stub axle flange (a double sided weld should be strong enough, and making them from tube and a flange not billet will save $$$). They will of course need hardening after.

Or the other option (if it is possible) would be to get some cruiser/patrol flanges and modify them to suit - provided ther is enough meat on them (may have to anneal and machine and then re-harden).

What does everyone think??? Here is a picture of what I think is an 80 series cruiser stub, which looks nice and beefy and must at least be bored for a 1.31" axle.

[daddylonglegs]

Ben, I think the Landcruiser spindles are worth a look. I once had a pair of Toyota spindles that had been reworked( not by me) to fit a salisbury rear axle housing with Toyota hubs ,but I gave them away. but at least we know it is doable. I think the ID of the Toyota inner bearing is 50mm so a rover wheel hub would need to be bored out to accept the toyota bearings. toyota hubs are a bit longer than rovers too but rover drive flanges are deeper so it may be workable. I think your suggestion with fabricating a spindle would work too but our rego authorities would probably lock us up and throw away the keys if they found out.
bill.

[red90]

My 2 cents are to warn you about considering welding 4340 or similar. It is very hard to do properly and requires pre and post heat treatment plus exacting procedures. In a critical and stressed component such as this, I would caution against the idea.

Has anyone been breaking bored coiler stub axles? I understand that bored Series stubs have been known to fail, but from what I've heard, nobody is breaking the coiler ones.

You know Ben. Why don't you just pick up a cheap 101 in the UK and ship it down.

[daddylonglegs]

Red90, I have seen a couple of unbored RangeRover spindles used in outback conditions broken over the years . The cross sectional area of a coiler spindle is actually less than a series spindle.because coilers use an inner hub bearing with a slightly smaller inside diameter, but the coiler ones are stronger because the oil seal ring is integral whereas the series have a removable seal ring. this means that the distance from the inner bearing thrust shoulder to the most highly stressed area of the spindle is increased from zero to half an inch. The spindles on coilers and series were originally designed for around 29 inch diameter tyres on rims with very little offset. They do a pretty good job holding up under our modified rigs with 36 inch tyres and big offsets but boring them out any amount is expecting a bit much from them. Better to limit the steering lock a little and run standard CV,s. Stage 1 Landeys hardly ever broke CV's because they only had 26 degrees steering angle verses 32 degrees for coilers.
bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

My 2 cents are to warn you about considering welding 4340 or similar. It is very hard to do properly and requires pre and post heat treatment plus exacting procedures. In a critical and stressed component such as this, I would caution against the idea.

Has anyone been breaking bored coiler stub axles? I understand that bored Series stubs have been known to fail, but from what I've heard, nobody is breaking the coiler ones.

You know Ben. Why don't you just pick up a cheap 101 in the UK and ship it down.

Thanks for the advice John. I have successfully welded and machined 4140 and 4340 before, without pre heat treatment, but I then heat treated the components myself before use (crude heat treatment using oxy torch and oil quench). If I was making something like a spindle I would get the annealing and hardening done professionally.

Yes a 101 would be good, but so would a cheap Mog 404.

Re the stub axles, when I bought my IIA (after it had been rolled by the previous owner) one of the stub axles was bent quite badly - this was on 7.50's. The SII and IIA stub axles were even weaker than the SIII because they were bored out inside to fit a brass bush in the end, for some strange reason the SIII had hard steel instead of a brass bush.

[daddylonglegs]

Ben, The bronze bushing in the series 1, 2 and earlier 2A's were a hangover from the even earlier 80 inch models that had Tracta jointed front halfshafts which required support at both the spindle and swivel ball. It took a few years for Rover engineers to realise that the universal jointed axles they had been using for quite some time did not require these bushes and reports of broken spindles began filtering in from Africa and Australia, so they created a stronger spindle by not boring it out for the bush.
Bill.

[Strange Rover]

I would (and have) just bore the stock spindles. The amount of material being removed is very small and I dont think it would reduce the strength of the spindle much. And I dont think that the failure rate of a bored spindle would be any different to a stock. I figger if you hit something that would break a bored spindle you would probably break a stock spindle anyway. I guess you could find something to hit that would break a bored spindle and not break a stock one but i think you would have to look for a long time.

And if you run disc brakes whats the worst that can happen if the spindle breaks?? Its not as if the wheel can fall off cause the caliper will stop it from coming totally off. I dont think it would be much different result from blowing a tyre.

Just bore the spindles and carry spares.

Sam

[ISUZUROVER]

Sam I think you have shown that bored stub axles are easily strong enough for your application. In my post I was more thinking about a cheaper stub axle for 35 spline applcations.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachme ... 7294&stc=1

[Strange Rover]

Probably best to make them from scratch for the 35 spliners. You wont be able to bore a nissan or toy spindle to take a 35 spline axle they are just too small on the outer bearing.

Only cheap way that i can see is to use a rear 30 spline D60 spindle (from an F250 say). They use spindles with a 2in OD on the inner and outer bearings. I rover hub can be bored to take bearings on this size. Can use a LM104949 cone to get the 2in ID and a JLM104910 cup to get a 82mm OD. The rover hub is them bored to 82mm for the inner and outer bearing. (using a metric cup gives a smaller OD than using the smallest imperial cup).

The 30 spline D60 spindle will have to be bored to take the 35 spline axle but this is commonly done in the US. Will have to muck around with spacers etc cause the D60 spindle is a few inches longer than the rover one. The D60 spindle is welded to the axle tube so you got to work out how to attact this to the rear axle (could just weld it onto the rover axle tube or try to come up with some way of bolting it).

Buying them from Jac Mac is the easiest way to do it at $300 each.

Sam

[red90]

Thanks for the advice John. I have successfully welded and machined 4140 and 4340 before, without pre heat treatment, but I then heat treated the components myself before use (crude heat treatment using oxy torch and oil quench). If I was making something like a spindle I would get the annealing and hardening done professionally.

Well, there is successful in that it didn't fall apart after welding and successful in that the strength of the component is as strong around the weld as in the parent metal.

I won't get into the details, but designing and welding alloys is a major part of my life. We have the budget for proper testing. It is nearly impossible to weld 4140 or 4340 and produce a strong joint based on destructive testing that I've seen. In this particular application, it is quite important that the area around the weld is strong. If you have been welding 4140 without preheat, you have been very lucky the weld didn't crack immediately.

[daddylonglegs]

If you have disc brakes and break a bored out spindle at 5kmh on a quiet road the results may not be catastrophic, but if ypu hit something hard enough to stress but not immediately break the spindle and it later breaks at speed and the wheel jams on the chassis and sends your vehicle spearing into a tree or the path of an oncoming car , the spares you carry will not be of much use.
Would you feel safe driving across if one day they decided to remove a couple of trusses from the Sydney harbor bridge?
Bill.

[Strange Rover]

If you have disc brakes and break a bored out spindle at 5kmh on a quiet road the results may not be catastrophic, but if ypu hit something hard enough to stress but not immediately break the spindle and it later breaks at speed and the wheel jams on the chassis and sends your vehicle spearing into a tree or the path of an oncoming car , the spares you carry will not be of much use.
Would you feel safe driving across if one day they decided to remove a couple of trusses from the Sydney harbor bridge?
Bill.

This may be true although I honestly believe it wont be this dramatic. I think it will be more of a case of a cracked spindle breaking at speed will just make the car drive a bit funny as if there is something loose. Probably a lot less dramatic than a tyre blow out say. I was navigator in the out back challenge in a series rig and we broke a front stock spindle. After the spindle cracked the wheel just cocked over a bit and it drove funny. We probably drove for a few hours like this(on 100kph dirt roads) not quite knowing what had come loose (thought a trunion bearing had collapsed). I think with a disk braked rig once the spindle cracks the wheel will lean over and drag the brake.

Sam

[rick130]

It is nearly impossible to weld 4140 or 4340 and produce a strong joint based on destructive testing that I've seen

without having John or Ben's knowledge of metals or facilities, I can back up John's view that these metals can let go when not handled correctly.

when I worked for my mate Mark Hammond, all our anti roll bars where 4140, IIRC.
I'd sometimes do the fabrication, but Mark would always do the welding, (can't understand why he wouldn't let me practice on customers jobs ) and they were always pre and post weld heated, then sent to the heat treaters (someone at Greenacre, IIRC)

A couple of rival chassis tuners/preperation 'experts' also started using these steels when they bought cheap Tig welders.
I saw a few of their customers end up in walls when the anti-roll bars snapped when fully loaded.....
No, they weren't heat treated.
Of course, they blamed the steel....

Rick.

[derangedrover]

Patrol GQ stubs are pox, very short with bearings close together, same smallest dia's as hilux stub.

Hilux stub ID is 35.3mm and outside thread is ~41.2mm, smallest od on outer bearing surface is 45.10mm, so to bore out to ~38.2 id to accept 35 spline 1.5" axle would reduce your wall thickness to ~7mm from ~10mm, 30% might be pushing your luck in the strength department?

Can get pics and measurements on patrol, hilux, & rover stubs if you need them.

Cheers
Daryl