Let's talk about engines

[1985LWB]

I am about to make some serious investments into my 1985 NB LWB, but I am not sure the direction I should or want to take.

It currently has a 2.6L Petrol, which from what I can gether from my research is a very capable engine that can be tricked up quite a bit.

But I am seriously looking at the diesel options, 2.5TDI or 2.8TDI.

The confusion is the conflicting information I am getting from everyone. I have been told the best thing to do is to scrap the 2.6, while I spoke to another fellow, who used to race the engine in the 80's and had only praise. I have heard the 2.5TDI is a slug and yet another person has one says it flies, while the 2.8TDI has been described as gutless and then I hear that someone with a 3.8L conversion is smoked by a modified 2.8TDI.

Since I know my truck is going to need a complete rebuild, engine to diffs, having 400,000klms, I am planning on buying a wrecked or totalled truck as a donor. So I need to come to a decision on which engine I am going to use, since especially with the 2.8TDI, you need a completely different drivetrain.

So lets have some discussion, yes, I have used the search feature on this site and every other site I could find on the web that has to do with this subject.

Thanks

[-Scott-]

I sort of hijacked xappas' thread about IFS lift to ask him about his engine - see here -> http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=25992

His results sound impressive, and if you're happy to stick with petrol then this could be worth investigating too - you get 16 valves and EFI in a factory package, and don't give up much capacity from the 2.6. I've never really understood why more people don't do this transplant.

Cheers,

Scott

[1985LWB]

Scott,

I do not have an issue with petrol engines as such. I have run petrol engines off-road for years, as a matter of fact until I came to Australia, I never heard the preference for a diesel when offroad.

What I am looking for in a engine, which I will be using mostly off-road, is reliability, a minimum of things to go wrong, and the ability to fix it in the bush, low-end torque, and water tightness.

I have been following xappas' thread, and noted with interest his engine swap. But I am concerned with how the engine would perform in a LWB with the extra weight. Also I need to be able to convert his performance data to something usable to me, HP, KW, NM, or Ft/Lbs.

Buying a diesel just for economy sake must be really looked at hard to be justified. Consider that a petrol engine gets 15L/100klm and the diesel gets 10L/100klm, looks like a no brainer, right? Well, in today's fuel enviroment, you would save about $5 per 100klm(not taking into account that diesel usually costs more per litre), or about $50 per 1000klm. So if you are buying a new truck, and you pay $4000 more a diesel, you would break even after 80,000klms. Now remember that servicing a diesel is twice the cost of petrol, and anything that breaks costs double to repair, you really have to be buying the diesel for a performance purpose to justify the cost. Also longevity of the new diesels with alloy heads, turbos and etc, has called into question the old adage the a diesel will run for 500,000klm without any work. Am I against diesels, no way, I love diesel engines, but I am not scared of the reliablity of a petrol engine either.

When I lived in Arizona(US) in the late 70's, the Jeep CJ 5 or 7 was the offroad weapon of choice, you would see them in the scalding heat of the Baja to the freezing thin air above the treeline at 14,000 ft in the San Juan Mountains. They were all petrol engines.

So I am looking more at the performance factors that I want from a engine than the fuel it burns. I am happy to stay with a 2.6L petrol or move to a 2.8TDI.

I am want an engine that will run about 105 to 120KW(140 - 160HP) producing between 240 - 300NM(180 - 225 Ft/Lbs) of torque. I want the torque curve to start as low as feasiblily possible. I prefer to stay with carburetion in petrol, if possible, simple to fix in the field. Although I am not adverse to FI, I am wary of water tightness in water crossings. I seldom run any engine above 4000 rpms, so all the power spec'd above needs to be at the low end of the rpm range, this where a diesel rules supreme. As long as I can average around 15L/100klm, I am happy.

I am open to all suggestions for this powerplant application.

Thanks

[Grantw]

It would seem that everything that you are after is available in the later model pajeros. Have a look at the NH, NJ GLX models as they came with the 2.8TD donk standard. After having a quick look around, they are fairly cheap too. Not only would you get the diesel for economy and torque, but all the benefits of the later models.

I would think that you would not see change from $3000-$4000 to do an engine conversion. This is not allowing for any driveline changes.

My 2c anyway.

[Grantw]

NH, NJ GLX models as they came with the 2.8TD donk standard

My bad... I meant 2.5TD...

[-Scott-]

The NH had the 2.5, the NJ saw the release of the 2.8.

Cheers,

Scott

[Bitsamissin]

Sounds like you would be better served with a diesel.
The 2.5TDI is probably underpowered for what you require without running massive boost which compromises long term reliability.
The 2.8TDI is a much better motor (chain driven vs belt driven) and is well known for it's longevity if looked after (400,000Ks +).
Unfortunately you have a Gen 1 2.6 so only a 2.5TDI will bolt in with minimum fuss.
The 2.8TDI uses the Gen 2 3.5 V6 running gear so you will need the geabox and t/case from one as well.
They are also hard to get 2nd hand and are still expensive (around $4K) the importers are not bringing any in as they are also hard to get in Japan.
If you can find one reasonably cheap with the gearbox/t/case go for it.
Another option is a Commodore V6 you can get these for $1500 complete with wiring loom and ECU. Marks 4wd Adaptors do the adaptor to mate to the Mitsu box. This may work out cheaper for you.
Your 5sp box is a KM145 which will only bolt up to the 2.6 or 2.3/2.5 diesels.

[xappas]

The dyno test from my engine is below:

http://www.hyperpress.gr/phot/dynojet1_small.jpg
http://www.hyperpress.gr/phot/dynojet2_small.jpg

What we have done is to increase the compression rate from 9.8:1 to 10.9:1 and put a new exhaust.

1985LWB to convert the torque multiply it by 9,81 (or 10 for a round figure).

[1985LWB]

xappas,

I am quite impressed with your engine performance. If you would be so kind as let know me what "PS" is equal to, HP, KW and the KG-M, is the conversion you gave above to convert the torque to Ft/Lbs or NM? How has you powerplant performed in water crossing and etc. I really what you have achieved, I am just wary of all the extra electrical goodies and keeping it dry.

Frank,

I have been keen on getting a 2.8TDI, ever since this saga started with the NB. But if you spend anytime on the Pajero Owners of UK forum, you will find that there seems to be a major issue with cracked heads. And often not under seemingly stressful conditions.

Has anyone looked into a transplant from Canter diesels? They run very similiar sized diesels in the small trucks, but I seriously doubt that you will find any alloy heads. And there may be less demand for them on the secondhand market.

I am only sticking with the NB because I like the raised roof and the extra room it gives to the interior. One of the things I dislike about the Patrol and Landcruiser is how cramped they feel, especially the 80 Series.

To be honest, I am starting to lean toward keeping the 2.6, when adding up all the costs vs benefits, for the cost of full driveline transplant and rebuild for changing to a GENII system, I can rebuild the 2.6 a few times and have plenty of funds left for the extra fuel and some good holidays. Especially since I have found that I can buy complete donor truck for around the $500 mark.

If I choose the option of buying a Gen II 2.8TDI donor truck, can the rear suspension be changed over to the coil and trailing arm system, along with rear disc brakes?

[xappas]

xappas,
I am quite impressed with your engine performance. If you would be so kind as let know me what "PS" is equal to, HP, KW and the KG-M, is the conversion you gave above to convert the torque to Ft/Lbs or NM? How has you powerplant performed in water crossing and etc. I really what you have achieved, I am just wary of all the extra electrical goodies and keeping it dry.

PS is the same as HP. And the conversion is for NM.

As for the water is about the same as every injection petrol engine. Meaning i doesn't like it very much. No worse than average though.

I will be installing an electric fan in the future, so I will be able to turn it off manually.

[1985LWB]

Thanks everyone for the input. I have been seriously internet impaired because of this renovation at the moment. I can only spend a few minutes at a time on the net, till we get moved back in the house.

Update is that I am in contact with Pickle's Auctions in Sydney, trying to find out the price of a 2.8TDI donor vehicle. Also if anyone in the area, Eastern Suburbs Sydney, has one that I can test drive and take a look at, I would be indebted to your kindness.

Several other things I have found -

I have heard rumours that Mazda used the same block as the 2.6L Petrol in a 2.6L Diesel configuration in a light truck application. Anyone else know about this?

Also I have heard that you need to modify the firewall for a Gen I conversion to 2.8TDI. Can anyone confirm this and what is involved?

I know that often the Triton drive-trains are interchangable, what about the Express van? I have seen a few of them very cheap with the 2.4EFI and also one with 2.5TDI.

Does anyone have or know anyone with experience with Canter or Mitsubishi Light trucks? I am sure that this drivetrain would have been used in light truck applications somewhere along the line, but I cannot seem to find any information on it.

Frank,

Did you gain any addition engine room clearance with you SAS? And what is this little modification cost all up?

Thanks,

[-Scott-]

I have heard rumours that Mazda used the same block as the 2.6L Petrol in a 2.6L Diesel configuration in a light truck application. Anyone else know about this?

I don't know about Mazda, but I heard that the 4G5 (G=gasoline) and 4D5 (d=diesel) series of Mitsubishi engines are essentially the same block configuration. The 2.6 petrol block is supposedly identical to one of the 4D5 series diesels, but I'm not sure which one.

Also I have heard that you need to modify the firewall for a Gen I conversion to 2.8TDI. Can anyone confirm this and what is involved?

The 2.8 wasn't introduced until NJ, so it is possible that it doesn't fit a Gen 1. The 3.5DOHC V6 was introduced at the same time, and the body was lifted 30mm higher on the chassis to make it fit. As the 2.8 uses the same drivetrain it is possible the 2.8s had the same bodylift, hence problems squeezing into earlier vehicles.

I find all this very interesting. Keep up the good work!

Scott

[gokhanugur]

Hi Guys,

I would like to change my Pajeros 2.6L petrol engine(4G54) with a 2.5L diesel(4D55). Do I have to get the diesels transmission box or would my old transbox work ok with it? How would this effect my top speed? and etc.

http://www.geocities.com/gugur/pajero.htm

[MontyMcV]

Are the Starions not plentiful down under? I never see you guys posting about doing a turbo swap on the 2.6. We're at least a good dozen and counting. They are a blast to drive...

[-Scott-]

We've never had a factory 2.6 turbo (the Aus factory did make one, but it never made production... ) - what we call "Starion" had a 2 litre 4G63 (Sirius family - not Astron) turbo - 8 valve, throttle body injection, 125kW with leaded petrol (110kW unleaded ?)

Cheers,

Scott

[Bitsamissin]

Maybe a cheaper option would be to do a performance rebuild on a 2.6 and use the Magna EFI set up.
They were getting 102Kw on premium fuel with a standard donk so 110-120Kw would be very achievable. Torque was around 225Nm from memory from those TR/TS Magna's.
With a turbo and the EFI you would have to be looking at 150Kw plus

[MontyMcV]

One extra challenge, at least here, is that to go EFI means having to use and aftermarket management system. Not that that is a deal breaker.

As for me, my first time wrenching since high school (20+ years back) was doing a turbo swap. So far so good. And it is real fun to drive, that's for sure.

The stock 2.6T here if intercooled ranged from 178HP to 188HP depending on year, 145HP if no I/C. If I did my homework right, that would be 133kw, 140kw, and 108kw. Kevin_C over here figures about 220HP (16kw) for his lightly modified setup. There are a few who have the EFI as well whose numbers I don't know. They say that with relatively little pushing, the [nearly] stock motor if built properly can do ~250HP (186kw)with relative safety. Torque on a stock 2.6T with I/C is ~300Nm.

Let me ask you guy this, jus tout of curiousity, would you be interested in doing the 2.6T if you could get the parts? Could you even? I don't mean in terms of skills, but you guys seem to have a fair bit of regulations to contend with. From what I've read, you can't do a body lift without an inspection. Would such issues preclude you from doing the 2.6T?

I picked up my donor car for $750 US and it came with a bunch of extra parts. By the time I'm done with ebay, I should recover a good $500 of that. Alternatively, I've known some who have gone out at picked up just the parts. They seem to spend from $500-800 US.

[ca18escort]

If I may be so bold, given my experience with engine rebuilds of the performance variety and engine conversions in general it would, in all likely hood work out cheaper to buy the vehicle that has the desired engine, than it would be to do the swap. In addition to that you won't have to worry about engineering costs that may be incurred during the conversion and the resale of the vehicle should be better in the long run.

Cheers
Paul

[J Top]

I agree.There has to be a special reason to modify a vehicle now as costs escalate so quick and at the end you usually have something you could have brought for less and sold for more.
J Top

ps I am the first to break this rule.

[MontyMcV]

Forgive the hijack. I just find this rather interesting. So are you saying that if the parts could be rounded up for what I think is a nominal $500+ US, that you likely wouldn't be able to do the work without spending a ton more? The swap is as close to a drop in as there is. Engine, ECU, main wiring harness, a few splices, electric fuel pump, fitting the I/C.

When you say "engineering costs," is that your way of saying "the things that have to be figured out and made," or are you meaning something more formal? Like over here when you put an addition on your house you have certain engineering specifications that have to be followed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sell turbos to OZ. Like I said, I find it interesting, as well as maybe a little unfortunate in that the darn thing is so much fun. If many more are imbarked on here, it might even qualify for "craze" status.

[ca18escort]

There is a large difference in talking about the US and Australia. Your $500 US is about $750 Australian, then you have freight costs. In Australia there are numerous laws depending on state that govern what you can and can't do and at times engineering costs are involved. I can't really see an engine conversion costing less than around $1500-$2000 in Australia if done properly and that is not counting the cost of rebuilding the engine before you fit it. It was just my opinion, and again I have broken this rule many times before including turbo engines in gemini's and escorts not to mention V8's in hilux's. But I can honestly say that none of them have cost less then about $2500.

Paul

[MontyMcV]

Yes to the US$ vs. AU$. Yes to the cost of the rebuild. Yes to the freight (a big unknown). Yes to the cost of rebuild before doing the swap. The real killer on the freight would be the short block. The only big difference between the Starion 2.6 and the Montero is oil squirters the shoot the back of the pistons. These I've heard can be readily machined into the Monty block.

Cost of the squirter machining and the engine rebuild itself aside, I think the swap costs for donor parts plus a few extra things is easily $1,000 US$ tops. So, $1,500 AU$. I don't know what other costs you'd have there for local factors.

You make this sound expensive. I'm not saying it is cheap. But I've seen you guys doing some pretty decent work to your rigs. And lots of them on Gen IIs. Hardly anybody here does Gen IIs because the cost of the rig itself is considered prohibitive.

I would call the swap something you'd do just because, like putting in a new stereo. But at least here, if you have a truck whose engine is on its last leg, and you are going to go through the brain damage of redoing it all, then the swap is definitely worth considering in the mix. That's basically where I'm coming from, and why I did mine. Not for the turbo by itsself, but because the truck needed major R&R, so why not go the extra ways and make it be truly driveable, and a bit unique, in the process.

Like I said, I'm not in the swap kit business here. Just talking it through with you guys. If anyone down there wanted to explore it, stop on over to the 4x4Wire board. There's plenty there who would help out any way they can.

Ride On,
Bill

[-Scott-]

Bill

What can you tell us about these 2.6 litre motors? Are they Astron motors or the Sirius family - I vaguely recall the 2l Sirius in our Starion had these squirters for the underside of the piston...

2 valve or 4? What's the injection system - MPI or throttle body? I'm curious about how similar they are to ours - I have a Sigma wagon with a 2.6 Astron, can't help thinking 2.6 EFI Turbo would get me into trouble.

Cheers,

Scott

[Bitsamissin]

Scott, you can get these motors through the major Jap engine importers such as API. They are the same 2.6 Astron motors as what was fitted to our local Scorpions. Remember Scorpions were a Jap import Sigma's were locally made.
This 2.6 has the same throttle body injection as a Starion or Cordia later versions are intercooled.
The imported 2.6 is whats refered to as a large valve head (slightly larger valves than the local 2.6 and bigger ports) it's sort of like a Astron 1.5.
The Astron 2 local version is better again with even bigger valves and ports with higher compression. After 1986 all 2.6's were made in Oz and even exported to Japan to be fitted into other vehicles. But I'm pretty sure the Astron 2 variant was never used in the Starion (only Jap 2.6 versions).

[MontyMcV]

Scott:

Sorry for not replying, was away for a few...

Seems like Frank it pretty up to date on it all. (No surprise there!) So it sounds like even though the Starion there was not 2.6L, you have other possible donors? What is a Scorpion? Sounds cool! Were they intercooled?

[turps]

What is a Scorpion? Sounds cool! Were they intercooled?

They where a 2door coupe. I nearly brought one but it had a dodgy gearbox and was told they wernt cheap to fix (was at UNI back then).

[-Scott-]

What is a Scorpion? Sounds cool! Were they intercooled?

As turps said, nice 2dr coupe, fully imported from Japan. Sold here during first half of the 80s. Unfortunately they were all naturally aspirated (OK, a few 2l turbos came in as private imports...) and the early ones were 2l Astrons. Mitsubishi Australia even evaluated a turbo-diesel, but dropped the idea.

We've never had a factory-supported 2.6 turbo in Australia. The Australian factory released a locally turbocharged carb fed 2.0l Astron in about '81, and they turbocharged one or two of the 2.6s for their own fun, but it all stopped by '83 - about when we first saw the Starion.

I'm thinking about this 2.6 Jap import motor...

Cheers,

Scott

[MontyMcV]

Sounds like what they sold under Chrysler here as the Dodge Challenger and Plymouth Sapporo. They were from around 78-84. 2.6L NA, and carbed I believe. I actually had an 83 Challenger, but that was before I wrenched so I don't remember the details.

That's a bummer on not having any 2.6L turbos readily available there. Does anyone know if the ECU from an EFI 2.6L can handle the turbo? Or would the swap mean aftermarket fuel management?

[-Scott-]

I'm guessing here:

I doubt the stock 2.6 EFI ECU would cope with a turbo - you'd need to input boost pressure, and the ECU would need to add fuel relative to the boost. Aftermarket ECU would be a more realistic solution.

Cheers,

Scott

[MontyMcV]

Makes sense. I've never dealt with an aftermarket FMS. Since the Starion here came with it all, it is a very simple swap. Just have to splice a few wires and fit a few things like the I/C and oil cooler. That's what made it so appealing for a newbie like me. I have all the service manuals as well so it was pretty straight forward.

On a related note, I just got an email from someone in Sydney on a Starion part I have listed on ebay. So I may be shipping to OZ if anybody wants anything...

Bill