In WA, the department of planning and infrasture have imposed a 2" height maximum for lifts, which includes body, suspension and tyres. Anything over 2" you need to perform a lane change test. Anything over standard (up until 2") need to go over the pits to be approved. Also any modification you do to a vehicle needs prior approval before you undertake it.
So I have been speaking to a local shop who undertake 4x4 mods. They have been doing the lane change test in the past and getting them legal. However some of his customers have recently been declined permits to undertake modifications. Apprently one guy got a lawer involved and he has not found any legislation that stipulates the maximum height of a vehicle or size of tyres.
So do other states have this in legislation ??? To me it looks like the WA planing and infrasture do not want to deal with these modifications and are now just not approving them at all. While in the past they tried to enforce a very dificult and expensive test to try and deter these kind of mods. Is this illegal for them to do this ??? Are they alowed to make up rules with out legislation behind it ??
So this leads me to the question does this mean that all we need to do is ensure that our 4x4's adhear to ADR rules?? Are there any ADR's pertaining to height of vehicles and tyre size?? Do we have to adhear to current ADR's or ADR's for the year of the vehicle in question ??? Any web links to ADR's ???
Should vehicle modifications be a federal policy and have nothing to do with the states?? Arn't ADR's federal, therefore the states have no legal enforcement to make there own rules related to modifications??? If a company was to build a vehicle that meet ADR's and then sold it thoughout Australia, but it broke some state enforced guidlines, what would happen????
Anyone out there with legal background or vehicle engineering background care to have some input??
Chris
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Legalality of modifications
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mickyd555 wrote:can they do that, does that mean you cant cross the border into WA with 4" lift........... it doesnt sound right to me. but i know nothing just a random guess
That's right I'm pretty sure, you can get pinged once you cross the border.
I heard talk of the mystical nationwide rules that were always supposed to be coming actually coming next year. Anyone else heard similar
i reckon you shold be able to do what you want to your vehicle
as long as it passes the usual changing lanes at speeds and stopping in time
as long as it passes the usual changing lanes at speeds and stopping in time
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bruiser wrote:I also heard that all states will have the same rules sometime this year.
Great for us Queenslander's if it all happens
I reckon our's are the worst and can therefore only improve.
Steve
what if every other state follows us that would suck but i hope we go with others then all this work i have been doing can be legal
any idea when this will happen
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bruiser wrote:I also heard that all states will have the same rules sometime this year.
Great for us Queenslander's if it all happens
I reckon our's are the worst and can therefore only improve.
Steve
This has been talked about for a number of years. I dought it will be any time soon!!
But are these rules legal?? This is a federal law rather then state??
Chris.
police/transport canot "ping" you for a car that complies to the requirements of the state it is registered in, they could if they were fussy try to ping you for your vehicle not complying to YOUR states requirements, but most would just wave you through.
so no, this cannot affect tourism.
ADR's will not list a maximum height etc, well it might, but it will be about 3 metres, it will not list a height that a vehicle can be lifted from standard, because this is not what the ADR's are about.
The problem is you are modifying a car that a manufacturer (toyota nissan etc) has spent millions engineering. You want to do an 4", 6", 8" lift, well suddenly all aspects of the vehicles handling, stopping etc etc have changed. The responsibility is then on you to prove that the vehicle is still safe, and still complies with all ADR's. gonna spend millions proving that? for minor modifications a minor test is often enough to prove the car is still safe, but more extreme modifications cannot be verified by simple tests.
The idea that there should be no restriction to modifications is ludacris, a simple lane change and brake test is not enough to deem a vehicle safe. There are millions of aspects that could make your vehicle not necessarily un-safe, but less safe. Thus if the WA allowed you a 8" left aslong as it can brake and change lanes, thier head would be on the chopping block when the coroner finds that 3 children died needlessly when a modified nissan rolled over after swerving etc.
I cannot comment on WA bringing in a 2" restriction as legal or not, although id be suspicious if there is no legislation to support it. All you can really do is contact your local/state/federal member and ask him/her to find out for you, thats what they are there for. If enough of you ask, they will at least attempt to answer.
so no, this cannot affect tourism.
ADR's will not list a maximum height etc, well it might, but it will be about 3 metres, it will not list a height that a vehicle can be lifted from standard, because this is not what the ADR's are about.
The problem is you are modifying a car that a manufacturer (toyota nissan etc) has spent millions engineering. You want to do an 4", 6", 8" lift, well suddenly all aspects of the vehicles handling, stopping etc etc have changed. The responsibility is then on you to prove that the vehicle is still safe, and still complies with all ADR's. gonna spend millions proving that? for minor modifications a minor test is often enough to prove the car is still safe, but more extreme modifications cannot be verified by simple tests.
The idea that there should be no restriction to modifications is ludacris, a simple lane change and brake test is not enough to deem a vehicle safe. There are millions of aspects that could make your vehicle not necessarily un-safe, but less safe. Thus if the WA allowed you a 8" left aslong as it can brake and change lanes, thier head would be on the chopping block when the coroner finds that 3 children died needlessly when a modified nissan rolled over after swerving etc.
I cannot comment on WA bringing in a 2" restriction as legal or not, although id be suspicious if there is no legislation to support it. All you can really do is contact your local/state/federal member and ask him/her to find out for you, thats what they are there for. If enough of you ask, they will at least attempt to answer.
adr
ADR and "road worthys" are different, in victoria you can increase and decrease ride hight by a perecentage of its original suspension travel, unsure of the persentage and if that includes body lift, but the persentage is = to aprox' 2" in most cars. i believe that if you are doing bolt on mods the they should automaticly be approved, EG: 4" lift on a patrol requires caster correction, adjustably pan hard rods and extended brake lines, these are off the shelf items so all companys like 4ways etc should do one kit get it aproved buy the apropriate ppl and when you buy their kit you are automaticly legal?
does that make sence? what do you all think?
does that make sence? what do you all think?
dont tell the missus
yes once a kit gets approved and it is installed by an approved dealer or you get it approved again just to say hey i haven't taken any short cuts it should be ok across australia not in one state how do NSW roads differ from QLD roads do we have sharper turns or something 
MUD BEERS & MAYHEM 4x4 & SOCIAL Group
[url=http://www.fourbys.com.au/]Fourby's tyre and mechanical[/url]
[url=http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=24441/]My build up for ttc[/url]
[url=http://www.fourbys.com.au/]Fourby's tyre and mechanical[/url]
[url=http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=24441/]My build up for ttc[/url]
Bartso wrote:yes once a kit gets approved and it is installed by an approved dealer or you get it approved again just to say hey i haven't taken any short cuts it should be ok across australia not in one state how do NSW roads differ from QLD roads do we have sharper turns or something
In WA if the kit is over 2" then it needs a lane change test full stop. They don't care if it is an arb, king, dobins or home made kit.
I have looked at the VEHICLE MODIFICATION APPLICATION form and it states "Modifications must not contravene the Road Traffic (Vehicle Standards) Regulations/Rules 2002 or the Australian Design Rules applicable to the vehicle’s date of manufacture." Does anyone know if these documents have suspension or tyre limits?? Anyone know where I can get copies from the net ???
Chris.
So in WA if you can't get the go ahead for some mods, all you can do to say, a Hilux, is fit 31 inch tyres no other mods, or keep the stock tyres with 2" suspension lift..... that's gotta be tougher than QLD!
If I was in that situation would probably just keep pestering the Roads Authority, maybe tackle an engineer for help. They have a set of rules in place that joe public is trying to abide by.
If I was in that situation would probably just keep pestering the Roads Authority, maybe tackle an engineer for help. They have a set of rules in place that joe public is trying to abide by.
cbr, If I were you I would find an engineer and discuss first what is legal to do. Once you have determined this I would approach the Transport Dep. for the pre-approval. If they knock it back, just keep sending them in. Also as mentioned before, approach you local member and complain that this gov't body if screwing you around as everything you want to do is legal or approach a lawer to see what you can do. This will be my approach when I go to do my lift.
If your planning something over an 8" lift or something silly you have to question whether or not the car should be road registered as it would no doubt be a danger to other road users. To me a 4" spring lift and 2" body lift seems to be about the maximum and extreme to which you should go on a road registered car. Even this would be hard pressesd to get through as its a 6" lift not including tyres.
My long term plans are to do a 4" lift with a 2" body lift (seems to be the standard amongst whinch and outback challenge trucks) though I believe I would have trouble putting it through so it may just have to be 4" spring and chop the body to fit larger tyres. Registering something like 35" tyres with a lift would also be next to impossible too, but thats what trailers are for.
The point that shadow raises is a very important one. Car makers don't spend millions each year to develop these cars only to have someone cut the springs in half or whack in a spring twice the size. It makes sense to keep the mods within reasonable limits. Unless of course you have millions of your own to redevolp the vehicle
If your planning something over an 8" lift or something silly you have to question whether or not the car should be road registered as it would no doubt be a danger to other road users. To me a 4" spring lift and 2" body lift seems to be about the maximum and extreme to which you should go on a road registered car. Even this would be hard pressesd to get through as its a 6" lift not including tyres.
My long term plans are to do a 4" lift with a 2" body lift (seems to be the standard amongst whinch and outback challenge trucks) though I believe I would have trouble putting it through so it may just have to be 4" spring and chop the body to fit larger tyres. Registering something like 35" tyres with a lift would also be next to impossible too, but thats what trailers are for.
The point that shadow raises is a very important one. Car makers don't spend millions each year to develop these cars only to have someone cut the springs in half or whack in a spring twice the size. It makes sense to keep the mods within reasonable limits. Unless of course you have millions of your own to redevolp the vehicle
When a vehicle is first released to the market it must comply with the ADR's. There is a max height requirement within the ADR's but that is not low enough to effect lifts. One of the first problems is that there are limits for the heights of lights and lifting a vehicle can put your lights over the max heights.
The major vehicle manufacturers spend a lot of money developing vehicles to comply with their requirements and the ADR's. The testing alone is very expensive. The states allow you to modify your vehicle within some boundaries without full testing to keep the risk of non comliance down and the cost down too.
Theoretically you could make your own vehicle or modify your vehicle and class it as a new one and have it certified at a federal level but this would mean full ADR testing or analysis for the vehicle. That would mean a full brake test, full emissions test, seatbelt test, belt anchorage test and so on. $$$$$$
The major vehicle manufacturers spend a lot of money developing vehicles to comply with their requirements and the ADR's. The testing alone is very expensive. The states allow you to modify your vehicle within some boundaries without full testing to keep the risk of non comliance down and the cost down too.
Theoretically you could make your own vehicle or modify your vehicle and class it as a new one and have it certified at a federal level but this would mean full ADR testing or analysis for the vehicle. That would mean a full brake test, full emissions test, seatbelt test, belt anchorage test and so on. $$$$$$
bruiser wrote:I also heard that all states will have the same rules sometime this year
that has been talked about since before cars were invented.. it will never happen.
CBR.
My GQ had to go through swearve test, and braking test for the 6in lift, and 33's.
Bazzles had to go thru breaking test for 35's..
IMHO, I see no reason for peoples cars NOT to go thought these tests. If they pass all is sweet, if they dont, then get em fixed....
2in lift inc tires, sus, and body seems fuckin anal though.
Shadow wrote:police/transport canot "ping" you for a car that complies to the requirements of the state it is registered in,
So since in Vic box trailers dont need to be registered since they are covered under the cars insurance (so Ive been told thats why no box trailers have # plates), how far do you think I would get driving around Aussie with no # plate on the trailer?
cbr wrote: Anyone know where I can get copies from the net ???
Chris.
http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/licensing/form ... rodveh.pdf
interesting reading the form
Last edited by bogged on Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cbr wrote:Can someone please tell me if it has testing procedures for lane change test ?? When do lane change test need to be performed ???
They drive down the road and swerve very sharply to simulate a kid running out on the road, so its basically hard right, then hard left back to your lane, then opposite of that. They do this numerous times, dude was away for 20 mins in my car. Also round abouts, are tested I was told.
Took the words out of my mouth Joe, hit the nail right on the head.
Also the Road Traffic regulations do stipulate some regulations, it is designed to fill in the gaps the ADR's dont cover but because new mods come up all the time they cant cover everything.
The best thing to do is get a good understanding of the ADR's, Road Transport Regs and the local WA regs and use them in conjunction with each other.
DONT ABUSE THE TECHO OFFICER at the rego authority, you want something from him & if you are nasty you might not get it.
The rules might seem silly but when you understand them better they are not so silly.
My 20c worth now Im going home to paint the pergola, see ya.
Also the Road Traffic regulations do stipulate some regulations, it is designed to fill in the gaps the ADR's dont cover but because new mods come up all the time they cant cover everything.
The best thing to do is get a good understanding of the ADR's, Road Transport Regs and the local WA regs and use them in conjunction with each other.
DONT ABUSE THE TECHO OFFICER at the rego authority, you want something from him & if you are nasty you might not get it.
The rules might seem silly but when you understand them better they are not so silly.
My 20c worth now Im going home to paint the pergola, see ya.
Don't ask me, ask them. I'm just runnin for my life myself.
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
Well they are all following you...
No they ain't, I'm just in front...............
Chris
The States are able to specify their own vehicle road safety rules in conjunction with the ADR's hence WA has the Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977). They can specify whatever they want and even internal policy can apply while a proposed law is being examined. You can get a copy from the State Law Publisher for a fee
Its been said but I believe it is proposed that the 2" height restriction along with others, such as wheel widths will be adopted by all States as part of a National approach. Any deviations from this will require certification and as a part of this, WA requires a lane change test etc.
Personally, I consider a simple lane change test as a means of certifying a vehicles safety as a crock, as no way could a simple drive threw some witches hats at a set speed prove a vehicle is safe for all circumstances, ie what about when its loaded, wet, driver ?, emergency etc etc. I've been in a few "lifted" 4wd's and IMHO their driveability and general road holding left a lot to be desired.
Only a few months ago I looked at a mid 90's 4Runner that had a 4" suspension lift and a 2" body lift along with a 350 Chev.
I test drove it and checked it out for a mate. It trammed something shocking and handled like a wet dog. The sump pan was actually sitting on the diff and general engineering was not good, yet as it passed a lane change test it was fully approved by DPI. Hello !!!
Others have indicated the lane change test is easy so it seems your truck would have to be a real dog not to pass. There's no way to circumvent this so I would suggest you get it done before they wake up !!!!
For the QLD's you are right. I had to go threw the hoops with your DOT people to be PERMITTED to drive my V8 4Runner on your roads. After many emails I eventually got one guy to reconsider after pointing out reciprocal laws etc and forwarded him copies of approvals. He eventually gave permission for my TWO week visit. For a moment I thought I must have been visiting Russia
JD
The States are able to specify their own vehicle road safety rules in conjunction with the ADR's hence WA has the Road Traffic Vehicle Safety Regulations (1977). They can specify whatever they want and even internal policy can apply while a proposed law is being examined. You can get a copy from the State Law Publisher for a fee
Its been said but I believe it is proposed that the 2" height restriction along with others, such as wheel widths will be adopted by all States as part of a National approach. Any deviations from this will require certification and as a part of this, WA requires a lane change test etc.
Personally, I consider a simple lane change test as a means of certifying a vehicles safety as a crock, as no way could a simple drive threw some witches hats at a set speed prove a vehicle is safe for all circumstances, ie what about when its loaded, wet, driver ?, emergency etc etc. I've been in a few "lifted" 4wd's and IMHO their driveability and general road holding left a lot to be desired.
Only a few months ago I looked at a mid 90's 4Runner that had a 4" suspension lift and a 2" body lift along with a 350 Chev.
I test drove it and checked it out for a mate. It trammed something shocking and handled like a wet dog. The sump pan was actually sitting on the diff and general engineering was not good, yet as it passed a lane change test it was fully approved by DPI. Hello !!!
Others have indicated the lane change test is easy so it seems your truck would have to be a real dog not to pass. There's no way to circumvent this so I would suggest you get it done before they wake up !!!!
For the QLD's you are right. I had to go threw the hoops with your DOT people to be PERMITTED to drive my V8 4Runner on your roads. After many emails I eventually got one guy to reconsider after pointing out reciprocal laws etc and forwarded him copies of approvals. He eventually gave permission for my TWO week visit. For a moment I thought I must have been visiting Russia
JD
Was just reading more carefully through the WA form (only ever glanced at it previously) and it seems as though its written in a way that assumes you've already completed the modifications??? Yet its an application form for modifications ie
Examples of the way its written
[quote]Has the vehicle body been modified? ô€
This application is to be used by any person wishing to modify a vehicle for which prior approval
must be obtained from Licensing’s, Technical Section.
Examples of the way its written
If the seats have been altered from original equipment explain changes.
[quote]Has the vehicle body been modified? ô€
cbr wrote:Bartso wrote:yes once a kit gets approved and it is installed by an approved dealer or you get it approved again just to say hey i haven't taken any short cuts it should be ok across australia not in one state how do NSW roads differ from QLD roads do we have sharper turns or something
In WA if the kit is over 2" then it needs a lane change test full stop. They don't care if it is an arb, king, dobins or home made kit.
I have looked at the VEHICLE MODIFICATION APPLICATION form and it states "Modifications must not contravene the Road Traffic (Vehicle Standards) Regulations/Rules 2002 or the Australian Design Rules applicable to the vehicle’s date of manufacture." Does anyone know if these documents have suspension or tyre limits?? Anyone know where I can get copies from the net ???
Chris.
They may have given you the best present yet, if you have typed correctly.
They have used the word "or" in reference to Rules 2002 or the ADR's. You may want to get a legal-eagle to look it over, but to my mind (and most/all dictionaries I have seen) the word "or" is a mutually exclusive term (ie. one OR the other) rather than mutually inclusive (must be both).
If your vehicle complies with the ADR's you may well have a reasonable chance....
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
The ADR will not specify a max tyres size but changing a tyre will alter things such as
ADR 13/00 Light layout - height of lights
ADR 14/02 Rear view visibility, The seating reference point will have changed therefore retest need to confirm acceptable are (category specific)
ADR 18/xx - Instrumentation. Vehicle odometer and speedometer may not be within the required accuracy range.
ADR 24/02 - Tyre placard may not match replacement tyres and inflation ressures will have to be recalculated.
ADR 28/01 - External noise. Tyre roll out is specified in this test along with exhaust height. Both have been change so full test to confirm compliance
ADR 35/00 or 35/01 Compliance with brake regulations - vehicle height is changes along with centre of gravity (this rule has a lane change requirement) hence stability has changed and the vehicle is no longer representative on the vehicle that was test initally.
ADR 62/XX - height and location of towbar
ADR 42/XX - coverage of wheel arches, proximity of mudflaps to road, coverage of full tyre section, exhaust outlet height,
I'm not saying larger tyres will cause the vehicle to not comply with these regulations but the burden of proof is now on you, not the original manufacturer. The ADR will require the rim and tyre to be an approved combination and the tyre to meet the speed and load rating requriement relevant for the vehicle.
This is just an example of how many ADR's can be affected by something as common as a wheel change. These regulations can not be read independently. You need to have a good understanding of both the state and federal regulation to be aware when a regulation is not being complied with.
ADR 13/00 Light layout - height of lights
ADR 14/02 Rear view visibility, The seating reference point will have changed therefore retest need to confirm acceptable are (category specific)
ADR 18/xx - Instrumentation. Vehicle odometer and speedometer may not be within the required accuracy range.
ADR 24/02 - Tyre placard may not match replacement tyres and inflation ressures will have to be recalculated.
ADR 28/01 - External noise. Tyre roll out is specified in this test along with exhaust height. Both have been change so full test to confirm compliance
ADR 35/00 or 35/01 Compliance with brake regulations - vehicle height is changes along with centre of gravity (this rule has a lane change requirement) hence stability has changed and the vehicle is no longer representative on the vehicle that was test initally.
ADR 62/XX - height and location of towbar
ADR 42/XX - coverage of wheel arches, proximity of mudflaps to road, coverage of full tyre section, exhaust outlet height,
I'm not saying larger tyres will cause the vehicle to not comply with these regulations but the burden of proof is now on you, not the original manufacturer. The ADR will require the rim and tyre to be an approved combination and the tyre to meet the speed and load rating requriement relevant for the vehicle.
This is just an example of how many ADR's can be affected by something as common as a wheel change. These regulations can not be read independently. You need to have a good understanding of both the state and federal regulation to be aware when a regulation is not being complied with.
bogged wrote:bruiser wrote:I also heard that all states will have the same rules sometime this year
that has been talked about since before cars were invented.. it will never happen.
CBR.
My GQ had to go through swearve test, and braking test for the 6in lift, and 33's.
Bazzles had to go thru breaking test for 35's..
IMHO, I see no reason for peoples cars NOT to go thought these tests. If they pass all is sweet, if they dont, then get em fixed....
2in lift inc tires, sus, and body seems ***** anal though.
Bogged, was your lane change test conducted at 110km/h??, this is what is required is WA. Have a look at this http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/sagecom ... r/Lane.xls This was sent to me by the WA 4x4 association. Apparently a stock jeep could not pass this test. People who have done them are saying they are building the suspension for the test (ie hard) so it passes and then softening up the suspension.
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