Scenario.....
You need to recover a rig that has a hayman reese reciever style towbar system and no other recovery points. It has the tow bar & ball fitted.....Also assume you don't have an apt spanner to remove the ball from the tongue...
Would you:
A. Remove the towbar tongue and use the reciever pin to hold the snatch strap,
B. Slip the snatchie over the tow bar?
I'd also like as much detail as possible why you selected the option you did, and what is wrong with the other option....
Notice: We request that you don't just set up a new account at this time if you are a previous user.
If you used to be one of our moderators, please feel free to reach out to Chris via the facebook Outerlimits4x4 group and he will get you set back up with access should he need you.
If you used to be one of our moderators, please feel free to reach out to Chris via the facebook Outerlimits4x4 group and he will get you set back up with access should he need you.
Recovery:If you cannot access your old email address and don't remember your password, please click here to log a change of email address so you can do a password reset.
Towball recovery?
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
Towball recovery?
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
I did read, but i would not use the ball for quids.
Like I said, I do carry a large shifter in my recovery box anyway.
As for method using the receiver pin to hold the strap, I do not think this would be strong enough either.
If I had no tools, I would look for other alternatives as I still think safety first.
Like I said, I do carry a large shifter in my recovery box anyway.
As for method using the receiver pin to hold the strap, I do not think this would be strong enough either.
If I had no tools, I would look for other alternatives as I still think safety first.
http://www.baby-troupe.i8.com
Remove the hitch and use the receiver pin.
The only chance of something breaking is the strap or the pin. If the pin breaks, the likelyhood is it is gunna be bent and get trapped in the receiver rather than becoming a missle.
If the strap breaks ... well, there is not much you can do about that but at least there is no chunk of metal giving weight to the recoil.
If you were to use the ball, there is a chance the strap will slip off or sheer the ball off and well, I think you can work out the rest ...
The only chance of something breaking is the strap or the pin. If the pin breaks, the likelyhood is it is gunna be bent and get trapped in the receiver rather than becoming a missle.
If the strap breaks ... well, there is not much you can do about that but at least there is no chunk of metal giving weight to the recoil.
If you were to use the ball, there is a chance the strap will slip off or sheer the ball off and well, I think you can work out the rest ...
KRiS
The receiver pin is my rear recovery point - a towball is just dangerous and stupid.
If I had access to an insert with recovery hitch on board _ I would use that instead.
But anyway - pretty obvious question really!
If I had access to an insert with recovery hitch on board _ I would use that instead.
But anyway - pretty obvious question really!
80 Series Turbo - the Toy car...
XR6 Turbo - the work car...
XW wagon - the dogs car...
XR6 Turbo - the work car...
XW wagon - the dogs car...
Now I know the stories of tow balls breaking and causing death & mayhem....But I'd like to get some facts or at least detailed theory on this.
I mean first & formost has ANYONE ACTUALLY seen a towball shearoff? No old wives tales....
Seems plenty of you will relie upon the pin (is that rated??) compared to the ball which according to ADR's SHOULD be rated.....
.
.
.
I mean first & formost has ANYONE ACTUALLY seen a towball shearoff? No old wives tales....
Seems plenty of you will relie upon the pin (is that rated??) compared to the ball which according to ADR's SHOULD be rated.....
.
.
.
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
IN order of preferance ... I would use pin through the eye of the strap, If that was unavaliable and it was not a super difficult recovery I WOULD use the towball .. if I could see that it was a standards approved item .. (normally stamped in the flat bit at the top of the ball)
A: The Australian Standard AS4177-2 recommends that 50mm towballs with a rating of 3500 Kg be used for towing trailers upto 3.5 tonne. The capacity should be stamped on the ball plus the manufacturer's identification and a '50' to indicate the towball diameter in millimetres. " (From the haymen reese web site)
So these towballs are rated to haul a constant weight if almost 8000 pounds (3.5 tonne is 7700pounds) as well as stand up to mometary loads and acceleration braking etc .. and I am sure that there is a pretty decent safety margin built in ... or people would be suing left and right ..
I stress that if it was a ONE pull snatch where the strap would not have a chance to work loose on the ball etc .. and that the towball was in good nick..
But as with ALL recovery situations they need to be considered on their merits and dangers ..
A: The Australian Standard AS4177-2 recommends that 50mm towballs with a rating of 3500 Kg be used for towing trailers upto 3.5 tonne. The capacity should be stamped on the ball plus the manufacturer's identification and a '50' to indicate the towball diameter in millimetres. " (From the haymen reese web site)
So these towballs are rated to haul a constant weight if almost 8000 pounds (3.5 tonne is 7700pounds) as well as stand up to mometary loads and acceleration braking etc .. and I am sure that there is a pretty decent safety margin built in ... or people would be suing left and right ..
I stress that if it was a ONE pull snatch where the strap would not have a chance to work loose on the ball etc .. and that the towball was in good nick..
But as with ALL recovery situations they need to be considered on their merits and dangers ..
Last edited by Guy on Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
I've seen a similar question posed somewhere else where it was mentioned that the tow ball is actually rated well beyond the forces that would be exerted on it. Having said that, I would not and have not used the towball. As RoldIt says, if the pin breaks there will be nothing attached to the end of the strap, however if a ball breaks you've got a metal missile flying towards you.
OK LM now your on the path that I was thinking.....
Now thinking about the preference of the pin:
Would the leverage on the pin by the force of the recovery more likely to damages the pin - given that most force would presumably placed on the centre of the pin, compared to vertually zero leverage and pure sheer effect of having the tongue fitted???
Now thinking about the preference of the pin:
Would the leverage on the pin by the force of the recovery more likely to damages the pin - given that most force would presumably placed on the centre of the pin, compared to vertually zero leverage and pure sheer effect of having the tongue fitted???
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
TuffRR,
I know what you're saying - but I'd really like to get a clear handle on is this - Is it just an old wives tale to scare those with nor real expereince or is it a genuine concern.
I'm slightly prompted after a breif discussion with a 4x4driveing instructor that flat-out ruled it out yet when pressed couldn't give a clear reason.
Naturally it goes without saying that EVERY recovery is potentially dangerous and needs to be assesed individually to determine the best/safest method - however I think it's also good to be aware and have clear reasoning on why one approach is ok or preferable to another and what the various risks might be...etc...
I know what you're saying - but I'd really like to get a clear handle on is this - Is it just an old wives tale to scare those with nor real expereince or is it a genuine concern.
I'm slightly prompted after a breif discussion with a 4x4driveing instructor that flat-out ruled it out yet when pressed couldn't give a clear reason.
Naturally it goes without saying that EVERY recovery is potentially dangerous and needs to be assesed individually to determine the best/safest method - however I think it's also good to be aware and have clear reasoning on why one approach is ok or preferable to another and what the various risks might be...etc...
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
i use the pin method as my rear recovery point
the load its spread enough by the wide eye on the strap not to stress the pin that much.
Just make sure you check the pin every now and then.
Id never try a recovery with the strap just over the ball, to much risk of it slipping off.
the load its spread enough by the wide eye on the strap not to stress the pin that much.
Just make sure you check the pin every now and then.
Id never try a recovery with the strap just over the ball, to much risk of it slipping off.
Last edited by spazbot on Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www.overkill4x4.com
ph 94766137
ph 94766137
The other way to use the ball is to go the elec tape and secure the snatch to the ball - limiting teh chances of it slipping off via movemnet etc...
I have done this with a street car, my snatch and a mate stuffed car.
Works fine.
One factor to consider - teh quality of the shackle securing it to the other car - I rememebr recovering a bloke once and he had a 300kg rated shackle and NO tow points - needless to say I ended up wrapping around his diff instead.
I agree that the forces applied to a ball that is rated would justify using it - but the limits of attahcment/securing your snatch to it would mean it could become a missile. phew!
I have done this with a street car, my snatch and a mate stuffed car.
Works fine.
One factor to consider - teh quality of the shackle securing it to the other car - I rememebr recovering a bloke once and he had a 300kg rated shackle and NO tow points - needless to say I ended up wrapping around his diff instead.
I agree that the forces applied to a ball that is rated would justify using it - but the limits of attahcment/securing your snatch to it would mean it could become a missile. phew!
80 Series Turbo - the Toy car...
XR6 Turbo - the work car...
XW wagon - the dogs car...
XR6 Turbo - the work car...
XW wagon - the dogs car...
Doesn't a tow ball have the same "rating" as a shackle 
"What IF the strap slips off the ball"
What is the potential damage of the strap coming off the tow ball
A broken rear window maybe............how much for your submerging (insert name of expensive 4x4) that could have had the repair bill reduced while you were debating the pros and cons of which recovery method to employ
"What IF the strap slips off the ball"
What is the potential damage of the strap coming off the tow ball
A broken rear window maybe............how much for your submerging (insert name of expensive 4x4) that could have had the repair bill reduced while you were debating the pros and cons of which recovery method to employ
Wooders wrote:Now I know the stories of tow balls breaking and causing death & mayhem....But I'd like to get some facts or at least detailed theory on this.
I mean first & formost has ANYONE ACTUALLY seen a towball shearoff? No old wives tales....
Seems plenty of you will relie upon the pin (is that rated??) compared to the ball which according to ADR's SHOULD be rated.....
.
.
.
A good friend of mine died 30 kilometres from my house towing from the towball, on the 21st of March 2003 (less than two weeks ago) NO OLD WIVES TAILS, That is as true as I am sitting here, the ball sheared off, and tore his head in half. His Landrover Defender 130 was trapped in quicksand on the beach. He was towing with his Tractor.
Ive also seen 3 other incidents, of note, involving towballs and vehicular damage, and one other incident of a towball and personal injury.
I have used the ball to tow MANY MANY TIMES!
NEVER AGAIN! PLEASE DONT DO IT!
hands and mums dont count!!!
The ball is rated for 3.5tonnes or similar. The ball is NOT designed to take shock loads. The ball is meant for towed mass. Not submerged in mud/water/rock mass. This can significantly multiply the forces on recovery items.
Ive bent tow hooks straight and not sheared them. A ball will shear. It can easily kill/maim or do severe damage. The kinetic or stored energy is bad. Ive got a video on my computer of a winch cable on container hoist equipment snapping, chopping a malaysian (or simlar islander) in half.
Hook it onto something else. Recovery points are an important part of your vehicles safety equipment!
Ive bent tow hooks straight and not sheared them. A ball will shear. It can easily kill/maim or do severe damage. The kinetic or stored energy is bad. Ive got a video on my computer of a winch cable on container hoist equipment snapping, chopping a malaysian (or simlar islander) in half.
Hook it onto something else. Recovery points are an important part of your vehicles safety equipment!
hands and mums dont count!!!
Ok my $0.02
Tow ball is designed to have a full coupling around it and a soild draw bar meaning there is a very soild connection reducing shock load
this also means the line of force is kept pretty square on to the ball
There is also downward weight on the tow ball
A strap on the ball wll only load up a very small part of the ball and will effectly pull the ball on a angle
The tow ball has a single sheer point where the bolt goes throw the tounge when you twist this it means a very small contact point increasing the sheer load. Then you had the stretch and kinetic energy of the strap and things go bang sure you may get away with it a number of times but I WILL NEVER HELP YOU RECOVER IF YOU WANT TO USE THIS METHOD
The pin has 2 sheer points either side of the hitch tube this makes it a lot harder to sheer the pin and the pin will remain square to the tube maximising the contact patch and spreading the sheer load.
The pin can bend as you are putting the load in the middle of the pin where normally the load is on the edges of the ping near the indside surface of the tube
If none of this makes sense do these 3 tests and tell me what you think
1. Wrap your hand around the other hand made as a fist then push down and pull at the same time how hard is it to bend your wrist of the hand made into a fist ??? This is a tow ball and coupling
2. make a fist then wrap a bit of string around it and pull it should be easier to bend your wrist this is a strap on a tow ball
3. get a pen and put either end behind a couple of books and put a bit of string around the pen and pull between the gap in the 2 books how hard is it to break the pen ??? This is the pin in the tube
The pin is my 2nd choice option
My number 1 option is to remove the tow ball and use the tounge or easier still is to carry something like the Warn recovery hook hitch
Tow ball is designed to have a full coupling around it and a soild draw bar meaning there is a very soild connection reducing shock load
this also means the line of force is kept pretty square on to the ball
There is also downward weight on the tow ball
A strap on the ball wll only load up a very small part of the ball and will effectly pull the ball on a angle
The tow ball has a single sheer point where the bolt goes throw the tounge when you twist this it means a very small contact point increasing the sheer load. Then you had the stretch and kinetic energy of the strap and things go bang sure you may get away with it a number of times but I WILL NEVER HELP YOU RECOVER IF YOU WANT TO USE THIS METHOD
The pin has 2 sheer points either side of the hitch tube this makes it a lot harder to sheer the pin and the pin will remain square to the tube maximising the contact patch and spreading the sheer load.
The pin can bend as you are putting the load in the middle of the pin where normally the load is on the edges of the ping near the indside surface of the tube
If none of this makes sense do these 3 tests and tell me what you think
1. Wrap your hand around the other hand made as a fist then push down and pull at the same time how hard is it to bend your wrist of the hand made into a fist ??? This is a tow ball and coupling
2. make a fist then wrap a bit of string around it and pull it should be easier to bend your wrist this is a strap on a tow ball
3. get a pen and put either end behind a couple of books and put a bit of string around the pen and pull between the gap in the 2 books how hard is it to break the pen ??? This is the pin in the tube
The pin is my 2nd choice option
My number 1 option is to remove the tow ball and use the tounge or easier still is to carry something like the Warn recovery hook hitch
well
If as the question asks, you are using a snatch strap ie a bloody big force multipier then you are an idiot if you put it onto a item suck as a towball which is designed under the ADR to handle what really equates to a static load. The towball is not there to handle such forces as a snatch strap. It is kind of liek hitting two hammers togeather and woundering why they can shatter.
A class 4 hitch pin is not rated as such it generally has a 1/2 " or 12mm minimal diameter and is made from about grade 5 steel (or equiv ) It is designed to handle the sheer force applied from the square hitch and will bend before it brakes. Thus resulting in far less chance of casuing damage and mahem.
A guy I went to school had the towball of the 4WD he way towing out of A soft patch of sand on fraser island sheer off and go through his back and front windscreen of his 75 series cruiser in 1993. I was there and actually told him he was a bloody idiot for hooking on there, but like some many people had the attitude of it will be right. He was very very lucky.
It is easier to avoid an accident than mop up after it happens.
A class 4 hitch pin is not rated as such it generally has a 1/2 " or 12mm minimal diameter and is made from about grade 5 steel (or equiv ) It is designed to handle the sheer force applied from the square hitch and will bend before it brakes. Thus resulting in far less chance of casuing damage and mahem.
A guy I went to school had the towball of the 4WD he way towing out of A soft patch of sand on fraser island sheer off and go through his back and front windscreen of his 75 series cruiser in 1993. I was there and actually told him he was a bloody idiot for hooking on there, but like some many people had the attitude of it will be right. He was very very lucky.
It is easier to avoid an accident than mop up after it happens.
Brad
www.offroadvw.net
www.offroadvw.net
what an eye opener!!!! 
never put that much thought in to the subject
just used what was easier if the ball was there than i would just use that, if not i would use the pin
never again!!!! thanks for bring this issue up
has alerted me to a problem that will not occur thanks to you guys
(thanks bj for sharing a story that must of not been easy to tell, a very sobering reminder that we under estimate the danger of recoverys all to often.)
never put that much thought in to the subject
just used what was easier if the ball was there than i would just use that, if not i would use the pin
never again!!!! thanks for bring this issue up
has alerted me to a problem that will not occur thanks to you guys
(thanks bj for sharing a story that must of not been easy to tell, a very sobering reminder that we under estimate the danger of recoverys all to often.)
Aus standard balls have to take around 15 tonne for a certain number of seconds!! so they SHOULDNT break in a snatch! winching would be differant!!
Try putting the strap over tounge and crossing it over the ball, that way the most force is on the younge and the ball only supports it in position!!! Used this many times, WONT BREAK, AND the strap WONT flick off!
Try putting the strap over tounge and crossing it over the ball, that way the most force is on the younge and the ball only supports it in position!!! Used this many times, WONT BREAK, AND the strap WONT flick off!
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 151 guests