competition classes

[thunder]

there has been discussion about the different classes
of the jambo,nissan, and toyota comps...
i would like to add my 2c worth and see what u think
to see if all the comps could adopt the same classes..
add any changes u think or do u like the way classes have been the last few years!!!!!!

POINTS SYSTEM=
FRONT LOCKER=1 POINT
REAR LOCKER=1 POINT
TRACTION CONTROL-2 POINTS
CUSTOM FRONT END=1 POINT
CUSTOM REAR END=1 POINT
LOWER TRANSFER=1 POINT
DIFF RATIOS=1 POINT MAYBE!!
ENGINE=1 POINT(NOT BELONGING TO THE ORIGINAL 4B)
32S-34S 1 POINT
OVER 34S-36S 2 POINTS
OVER 36S-38S 4 POINTS
OVER 38S-40S 6 POINTS
OVER 40S-44S 8 POINTS

STANDARD-2 INCH LIFT WITH HALF INCH TOLERENCE=
2.5INCH MAX..EXAMPLE IS U GO TO YOUR 4B STORE 4 A LIFT AND U GET
35MM FRONT AND 60MM REAR....NO LOCKERS,TRACTION CONTROL,
LOWER GEARS,ENGINE NOT BELONGING TO THAT CAR,CUSTOM SUSPENSION.
MAX 31S TYRES.OR WHAT THE 4B CAME OUT WITH.

MODIFIED=MAX 3 POINTS
OPEN =MAX 8 POINTS
OUTLAW =MAX AS MANY POINTS AS YOUR BANK WILL ALLOW!

my 4b has....front locker---5 link---35s---lower gears=5 points
if something like this was adopted i would have..front locker--5 link
lower gears,,rear locker.,37s==8 points

[big red]

what about points for lift?
what do you class modified front end, caster plates,drop brackets, shock mounts modified, bump stop modified, adjustable panhard rod etc they are all a modification so anyone of them modifies the front end.
What about rear end, adjustable trailing arms, ''a'' frame that uses the original mounts, johnny joints in trailing arms etc etc etc
what about body lifts?
And thats only nissan mods !!
it sounds pretty complicated unless you generalise the mods , eg: height increase, traction increase over open diffs,tyre size , motor change, drive train change etc.
shane

[thunder]

i just put more points for the tyres instead of the lift......

what do you class modified front end, caster plates,drop brackets, shock mounts modified, bump stop modified, adjustable panhard rod etc they are all a modification so anyone of them modifies the front end.
What about rear end, adjustable trailing arms, ''a'' frame that uses the original mounts, johnny joints in trailing arms etc etc etc
thats is all custom.....
i have a 5 link front..and weather it is a bolt on or weld .it is custom.

i posted this up to maybe get a fairer system....at the jambo if a zook only had lower gears(rock hopper)they were in class 3 super modified....against people with lockers and 36s...

[RUFF]

Biggest problem i see with this and many other style of rules is how do you know wether gearing has been changed unless the competitor is honost enough to say that they have gears.
Also how do you measure lifted suspension unless you know the exact bumpstop heights every vehicle has from factory?

From the rules i have seen from comps down south they all seam way to complicated and there are so many different ways to bend the rules. Most comps up here go basicaly by tyre size,Locked or unlocked,and lifted or not.

[big red]

from the comps i have been in the biggest advantage comes from:
tyres,
double lockers,
1 locker and 1 lsd,
1 locker,
1 lsd,
[dont know where you would fit traction control, with double lockers ? ]
suspension lift,
gearing,
motor mods.
depending on suspension you can move that up the list sometimes.
Because of the lift i'm always chucked in with the locked mob which is a bit unfair but putting me in with the unlocked mob is also a bit unfair to them so i dont mind ,but i guess theres not many around with a big lift and no lockers so i just compete against my self.
I think thats the biggest problem with classes, theres just too many variables.
shane

[Slunnie]

According to 4WD monthlys testing, ETC is about 1 locker.

[thaoldman]

Thunder you are darn right about the classes being stuffed for Jamboree (and Willoglenn). I too want to know why sierra's with rockhoppper gearing and open diffed with 31's have to compete against double diff locked and 36" tires. Is it that we are such a threat ?
From memory even with a factory LSD a Patrol could compete in standard class ?? doesn't make sense to me. I would have thought traction control devices are more of an advantage than gearing ?

[thunder]

Biggest problem i see with this and many other style of rules is how do you know wether gearing has been changed unless the competitor is honost enough to say that they have gears.

when i was at nissan trials this year they first gave me a modified sticker
and i spoke up saying i had a 5 link front,they end up giving me a open sticker and said if they found out later i would be disquilafied..everyone knows what mods u have got ,u make yourself look stupid if u dont declare what class u r in.....u can read the classes before u get there and u know what class u r in..

in the nissan comp if u only had a 5 link u were in open against 37s and double locked etc...

IN ALL THE COMPS ITS ALL ABOUT HOW HONEST THE COMPETITOR IS!!!

[OVERKILL ENG]

Thunder I think you are on the right track there as the point system makes sense and sounds like it be would be fairer.Lets just hope the powers to be get hold of the idea.

Just my 2 cents

[Pal]

What about

33 class
No lockers, trac control, bead locks (internal or external) or portal diffs
Factory type LSD only
Factory type body panels (No cut down bodies etc)

Modified Class
36 Tyres Maximum ( Measured Horizontally)
No portal diffs

Open Class:
38 tyres
No Portal diffs

Outlaw
Anything goes


Unfortunately some people will try to cheat or break the rules and should be removed from the comp.
The less rules the easier it is for the organizers and competitors to abide by.

[Slunnie]

I think that looks good Pal, though open and modified are very close. I also think modified should be back at the good ol' 35"

[Pal]

I think that looks good Pal, though open and modified are very close. I also think modified should be back at the good ol' 35"

There has been a good ol' 36" class for years :wink:

Maybe move Open Class up to 39" Tyres.

A lot of daily drivers at comps are now getting around on 36 s and would be uncompetitive against the 'way out ' Open class trucks & half buggie creations in this 38" (or 39) Open class.

[thunder]

when i was at the jamboree, there were a lot of 4bs around on 35s that did
not have diff locks,so if these cars wanted to do a nissan trials they would have to drop to 33s and go in standard class and be super competative or be in modified and get a hiding,,,,...that is how it is!!!!!!!

[thunder]

DOES ANY ONE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE STANDARD CLASS....
at the moment some comps allow up to 33s in standard,but with most 4bs
the first lift they get is 2 inch or there abouts!!!!!!!!

[65Mog]

The Toyota and Nissan clubs should just keep the rules they have, you can't please everyone and if you change the rules every year all you do is piss everyone off. These rules are only new in a few years people that want to compete will build there car to suit the class they want to be in.
You can do anything you want to your truck but it still comes down to the person behind the wheel.


Cheers

[big red]

33's on a suzuki makes it a bit more than standard though.
35's can be legal so that seems a good size.
38's seems like a size that a lot of rigs can use with different ratios in their standard axles.
above 38's usually means major mods

[big red]

thunder, STANDARD class seems ok, you can have 33's and 2" suspension lift and be legal without engineers cert.
But a nissan lsd has a big advantage over a tojo so maybe you could make it one LSD of any description to allow others to fit an aftermarket one.
you could also have any suspension lift if you put a decent side slope into the track to stop those with huge lifts having an advantage.
maybe make it 2'' oversize in tyres instead of 33's to stop suzi's having the advantage.
maybe these ideas would make it fairer.
shane

[thaoldman]

Big Red have you driven a zook with 33's fitted ?......it would stall at the first speed bump with standard gearing.(well almost)
There is virtually no zooks competeing without rockhopper low gearing which according to the "Gods of rules" puts us against flaming big arsed patrols with double diff locks !!!.....so there are just as many "rules" already in place in stop suzi's having an advantage as you put it.

[POS]

Big Red have you driven a zook with 33's fitted ?......it would stall at the first speed bump with standard gearing.(well almost)
There is virtually no zooks competeing without rockhopper low gearing which according to the "Gods of rules" puts us against flaming big arsed patrols with double diff locks !!!.....so there are just as many "rules" already in place in stop suzi's having an advantage as you put it.

I have nothing against Zuki drivers but you guys always go on about how great they are!!!

So a stock Zuki with 33's (no lower gearing, just stock) against a STOCK hilux with 33', and stock nissan with 33's and so on and so on!

Stiff SHAIT if they cant push 33's.

If you need to put Rockhoppers in to make it capable than you would compete in the same class as a hilux with lower gearing!

Same as for a locker, if a STOCK hilux fits a locker than it goes up a class same for the ZUKI if it fits a locker (and no gear reduction) it goes up a class and so on!

COME ON IF THERE SO CAPABLE THAN THERE SHOULDN'T BE A DRAMA!!

What do you guys want a separate class for little cars!!!

Hey if they can't turn 33's than put the 29's back on, you would still be in the same class!

[BeZeRK]

too many classes

Normal..
Up to 2" over standard tyres
Off the shelf sus mods up to 2" lift
No lockers, no diff ratios!

In between
Single locker
up to 36" diff ratios
No super big suspension mods (dunno where to draw line (some engineer dood could figure that out)

Modified..
5 links etc, big lifts allowed.
no hydralics, no 4 wheel steer etc.
up to 38s.
Lockers Diff ratios etc all ok

Outlaw
ANYTHING GOES!!!

ahh, you would never be able to please everyone!!!

I like the points system!!!!!

[MADSHORT]

I like the way the poor suzuki drivers are complaining
Damn when i fitted 35s to my Toyota i could not drive them either
3.4 ltr 4cyl diesel (bugger)
So i had to change the diff ratios
So be it if you want more clearance the you should pay for it
A zook on 33s has got more clearance under the diff than a toyota on 35s
Go figure
Gordon

[thunder]

DID I OPEN A CAN OF WORMS!!!!

i was just seeing if there was a fairer system out there!!!!!

bezerk.i like this one...
Normal..
Up to 2" over standard tyres
Off the shelf sus mods up to 2" lift
No lockers, no diff ratios!

[thaoldman]

You guys need to read what has been said in the context it has been written before repling.
My comment was merely that nobody would compete in standard class with a zook fitted with 33's, and walk away a winner as Big Red was implying.
The fact that classing is being so strongly debated is why the organisers of events need to come up with a formula / set of rules that most people agree with.
Instead of leaping about like idiots, calm down and think about a few things......
Why is it that some makes are allowed LSD's in standard class and others are not ? "Standard class" is not meant to be as they come off the production line.
Back in the good old days, classing was based on the simple points. Two classes: Open diffed or locked diff. This is my gripe, I dont want a seperate class as some of you seem to have imagined.
How many of you would be able to drive further along a track than my zook if you didnt have lockers ? Thats what standard class is all about. Fitting Diff locks / LSD's wil get you much, much further than what fitting diff ratio's or low gearing ever will.

[Strange Rover]

I think that the rules need to be as simple as possible.

Now IMO if somebody wants to compete and doesent have diff locks then thats their decision. Nowadays diff locks are so available (and common) that its easier to assume that any modified rig has diff locks. And if they dont then thats their decision and they shouldnt complain they carnt drive stuff cause they are unlocked. Suck it up and get some lockers.

Gearing is the same thing. If you got standard gearing and oversized tyres thats your bad luck. Ride the clutch a little or side step the thing and keep it planted. You built the rig - you drive the bloody thing how you want.

Same with suspension lift. Lift it to the moon and we will just laugh at you when you fall over. Lift it how ever you want, I dont care.

So what classes does that leave you with.

You have locked and unlocked (limo are allowed in unlocked).

Stock and modified.

Different tyre sizes.


So if it was me, the clases would be.

STOCK - unlocked (limos allowed) and 1in increase in tyre size max

MODIFIED - up to 36in tyres

OPEN - over 36in tyres

You can run the unregistered (outlaw) in the open class, run them in a seperate class or not run them at all.

Now if you are going to complain that a zuke with rockhoppers, toy axles, V6 engine and 35s is going to kick a GQ trayback arse all over the place. Well, hey, maybe thats just because its a better comp rig and maybe it really should win.

Sam

[Wendle]

you will never please everyone, but basing it around tyre size is the probably the best option, as alot of the other mods are there to produce more torque, more clearance, more strength to allow the use of bigger tyres..
Steve, your system would put me up from open class to outlaw class, so I hate it (joking).. I think it is very fair..

[onall4]

Guy's,

Some good points here. But in the end, the individual event commitees have only taken on rules that they see fit to adopt to what they think will work with there style of competition.

About 18months ago a small commitee was formed, With the likes of Norm Needam, Dave Rossitor ( Suzuki Club) , Chris Chapman (TLCC), My self (Peter Antunac - On All 4 ), Nick Mannel ( Mannell Motors ), Dean (T4 ARB Artarmon). Thats all I think.

Now in this commitee we have a broad range of people from Drivers, Scruitineers, Club Presidents, Event organisers, 4x4 Business Owners etc.
Which was great,
However due to the high demand on the many public views about vehicle classes, It was near impossible to create a standardisation of vehicle classes. When most of the events had to use our Supplementry rule section more often than the standard rules.

Its a very tough issue to dabate, & I gaurentee that once it is debated again & again, That most comps will only use a few of the suggestions that are put forward, if any.

All I can say for now is. That there are rules out there now that are working well, ie. Nissan Trials. WillowGlen, Tuff Truck, Woodpecker, XRCC, Winch Challenges etc. I know they have there problems. But like it or lump it they are set for this year & probably the next. So If you want to be in a different class than your in now I suggest you take that Locker out, so you only have 1. or put that locker or lockers in so your more competitve. There are many other variables...

Good Luck Guy's

Pete

[mike]

Attached is an excel spreadsheet I made for the classes for our mudracing up here it could be easily modified/adopted for whatever.
I'd be interested to get some feedback from the group on how their vehicles fit.
We have a very broad range of competitors but most have fairly standard vehicles with a few mods. Being very keen to encourage people into the sport we're aiming to have some fairly easy entry levels where people can have fun and compete without committing serious bucks straight up.

Damn, can't attach a spreadsheet...
Ok now in HTML...
damn that's not allowed either...
OK rename it to a .htm extension before opening

[thunder]

[quote="onall4"]Guy's,

Some good points here. But in the end, the individual event commitees have only taken on rules that they see fit to adopt to what they think will work with there style of competition.

so does this mean that we will never see a universal set of classes for all the comps....
im mainly interested in the classes of nissan trials,willowglen,jamboree.
woodpecker,tuff truck ..there is only one class which is fine...

[Slunnie]

Universal sets of classes makes sense, so then it can give some type of direction to what rig you buy, how you set it up and what to expect when you turn up. Its like any other form of racing really.

[zerosin]

So If you want to be in a different class than your in now I suggest you take that Locker out, so you only have 1. or put that locker or lockers in so your more competitve.

Ummm either way 1 locker or 2, doesnt this mean u are still super modified???

Its all well and good when the class you are in is obvious but for most of us who use our 4b's as daily drivers as well, and have limited mods to get us thru the trails we choose 2 do, it is not so clear...I have IFS and 2 lockers, no lift, no huge tyres, standard suspension, so im super modified...How competitive can i be. even with one locker ..same class..was a time when there was a class for 1 locker..

classes should pay more attention to those who want to compete

So heres my Rant....

ie standard - factory with tyres to 33" no lockers, lsd if standard equipment

modified - 1 locker tyres to 35", 5" lift max (including bodylifts) no custom suspensions (after market only), diff ratios allowed.

super modified - 2 lockers tyres 35" to 38" , aftermarket suspension only(ie - nothing requiring alteration to existing setup, bolt on only, no welding!), lift to 8" (to allow the aftermarket 5" lifts with 3" bodylift), diff ratios free.

Open(outlaw) - Go for it! Engines, suspensions, tubes...etc

This setup would allow more people to be able to compete, more compettition for the classes, distinguish the better drivers vs the better vehicles...Fair enough i'd still be super modified but i'll give anything a go...Thats my 2 cents worth anyhow..