House wiring for welding

[kranked_dirt]

Occasionally when using the Arc welder my safety switch triggers, is the only way to stop this installing a 15a powerpoint and extension lead?? What does everyone else use??

[Tas_Dean]

If your firing your safety switch, it means that your welder isn't properly earthing the job. Make sure that your earth clamp is well attached, to a rust free spot as close to the weld as possible.

There is provision in the wiring rules to run a dedicated circuit for a welder, that is not covered by the RCD (safety switch), but having a circuit run in could be very expensive.

If it is only occasionally, put up with it, but make sure that you earth the job properly using the earth clamp of the welder. Try putting a rubber mat under your welding bench if it is a steel bench, or get your welder serviced and the earth lead on it replaced.

Cheers, Dean

[HSV Rangie]

INstall 15 amp socket

Michael.

[just cruizin']

What's the amperage of the welder?

Most will be OK to a 10 amp outlet up to about 150 then they step up to the 15 amp plug.

As mentioned check earth.

Turn off un-nessecary electrical components on that curcuit. Not the fridge though, hot beer not good.

[slowhilux]

Install dedicated 15A circuit, NOT run through RCD. Problem solved.

[-Scott-]

They make "Industrial" RCDs with a 100mA trip rating, as opposed to 30mA "Domestic" RCDs. If you're gonna put in a separate circuit for your welder, put in a 100mA RCD. Be prepared to argue with your electrician, because some wouldn't have a clue that RCDs come with different ratings.

Better to be safe than sorry.

Cheers,

Scott

[Tas_Dean]

. Be prepared to argue with your electrician, because some wouldn't have a clue that RCDs come with different ratings.

Cheers,

Scott

Too True!!!

I'm an electrician, and in most cases I found that welder's run fine even on domestic RCD's providing that the machine is in good condition, and that the earth clamp is properly attached.
Whilst the provisions allow for a circuit without an RCD, the authorities generally don't like it, and in any case spending 30 seconds with a wire brush getting a good earth connection is far cheaper than getting an electrician to run a new circuit!

Cheers, Dean

[crankycruiser]

They make "Industrial" RCDs with a 100mA trip rating, as opposed to 30mA "Domestic" RCDs. If you're gonna put in a separate circuit for your welder, put in a 100mA RCD. Be prepared to argue with your electrician, because some wouldn't have a clue that RCDs come with different ratings.

Better to be safe than sorry.

Cheers,

Scott

Well if they dont know they should have their arses kicked.....

I'm a sparky and i know.....

[mickyd555]

Dean, i think its time for you to buy a new rule book.


AS3000:2000

clause 2.5.3.1 domestic electrical instalations

RCD's with a maximum rated residual current of 30 mA shall be installed for the protection of the following final subcircuits in domestic electrical instalations:

(a) sockket-outlets

(b) Lighting



this requirement need not apply to a socket outlet, or a connecting device installed in accordance with Clause 4.11(c) for the connection of fixed electric cooking appliances, such as ranges, ovens and hotplates.



basically all this means that everything usually associated with a domestic install has to be protected by a 30 mA RCD, the only exclusions are, cooking appliances, hot water systems and directly connected air-cons.




kranked_dirt, your gonna have to directly connect it mate.

[Tas_Dean]

Dean, i think its time for you to buy a new rule book.


AS3000:2000

clause 2.5.3.1 domestic electrical instalations

RCD's with a maximum rated residual current of 30 mA shall be installed for the protection of the following final subcircuits in domestic electrical instalations:

(a) sockket-outlets

(b) Lighting



this requirement need not apply to a socket outlet, or a connecting device installed in accordance with Clause 4.11(c) for the connection of fixed electric cooking appliances, such as ranges, ovens and hotplates.



basically all this means that everything usually associated with a domestic install has to be protected by a 30 mA RCD, the only exclusions are, cooking appliances, hot water systems and directly connected air-cons.




kranked_dirt, your gonna have to directly connect it mate.

Perhaps it's in the Aurora Installation guide then, but I'm sure you can put a circuit in for a welder without an RCD! I never have put one in, because generally they are not needed!

I think there is a section specifically discussing a single outlet for a welder, I have not long moved house so I have no idea where my rule book is! I haven't worked in the trade for 2.5 years, I'm a disabled pensioner these days.

Cheers, Dean

[mickyd555]

Dean, i think its time for you to buy a new rule book.


AS3000:2000

clause 2.5.3.1 domestic electrical instalations

RCD's with a maximum rated residual current of 30 mA shall be installed for the protection of the following final subcircuits in domestic electrical instalations:

(a) sockket-outlets

(b) Lighting



this requirement need not apply to a socket outlet, or a connecting device installed in accordance with Clause 4.11(c) for the connection of fixed electric cooking appliances, such as ranges, ovens and hotplates.



basically all this means that everything usually associated with a domestic install has to be protected by a 30 mA RCD, the only exclusions are, cooking appliances, hot water systems and directly connected air-cons.




kranked_dirt, your gonna have to directly connect it mate.

Perhaps it's in the Aurora Installation guide then, but I'm sure you can put a circuit in for a welder without an RCD! I never have put one in, because generally they are not needed!

I think there is a section specifically discussing a single outlet for a welder, I have not long moved house so I have no idea where my rule book is! I haven't worked in the trade for 2.5 years, I'm a disabled pensioner these days.

Cheers, Dean

nope, theres no way round it nowadays, WH&S are making them a requirement in factorys too, although im not 100% on what it is they require. we normally put a RCD, circuit breaker combo for each circuit. and with the phase out of coil elements for hot plates, id say its not that far away from being a requirement to put them on ranges soon too, then they will ban electric hot water, so we will be done with MEN and go to a ELCB system.................

[Tas_Dean]

RCD's make more sense in factories anyway! The amount of damaged appliances, cords and wiring I have seen in industry is amazing, however there tends to be a more strict maintenance regime in place eg. testing and tagging, onsite electricians...

I'll admit defeat, now that I think more about it, I remember a lot of noise from local electricians about the deletion of the provision for welding outlets in the 2000 edition!

Do the rules allow a portable welder to be hardwired??

Cheers, Dean

[mickyd555]

anything can be hardwired, dryers and friges included, but remember that bit in the front about "due care"........its still there. a lot of things are changing and its hard to keep up with it all, but i think that most guys are out there with safety the priority. and thats the most important thing.

[built4thrashing]

15 and 20 amp sockets are allowed to be un-protected as they are normally installed for specific use. ie welders, big fridges, room airconditioners and split system. Some people (sparkies) say any plug in appliance has to be on a RCD but its not true.

the cost to put in a new 15 or 20 amp socket wired back to a new existing switch boardwould be about $250 to $400 depending on its distance from the board.

[mickyd555]

15 and 20 amp sockets are allowed to be un-protected as they are normally installed for specific use. ie welders, big fridges, room airconditioners and split system. Some people (sparkies) say any plug in appliance has to be on a RCD but its not true.

the cost to put in a new 15 or 20 amp socket wired back to a new existing switch boardwould be about $250 to $400 depending on its distance from the board.

dude, i dunno if your a sparky or not, but if you read up a few posts i quoted straight from our "bible". it has to be protected, if your not qualified to give advice on the subject i sugest keeping quiet. If you are qualified, id sugest updating your rule book, RCD's save lives........no question.

[AndrewT]

I agree, ask your local electrical inspector. ALL socket outlets now have to be RCD protected. The rule about dedicated circuits went out ages ago.

[Hoonz]

if u value ur life u will have it RCD protected ...

[Rainbow Warrior]

Silly question not asked yet, is the welder OK?
Is it newish or an ancient 3 poster home cased mongrel?

Safety switches are your friend, it is also possible you have a combined safety switch and over current circuit breaker. Do you lose just the one power circuit or 2 when it trips, maybe you need to turn off the jug and clothes dryer while welding

My $200 arc welder is in good nick but nearly 10yo, it has never tripped the RCD yet even with bad job earthing. It only trips a 16A circuit breaker when it is cranked up high.

I believe a new decent 15A welder can be around $90 nowdays, a mate picked up one still in the box from cash converters last week for $50, same as mine different colour case.

[Tas_Dean]

Silly question not asked yet, is the welder OK?
.

or get your welder serviced and the earth lead on it replaced.

I believe that touches on the subject!

Cheers, Dean

[mickyd555]

Silly question not asked yet, is the welder OK?
Is it newish or an ancient 3 poster home cased mongrel?

Safety switches are your friend, it is also possible you have a combined safety switch and over current circuit breaker. Do you lose just the one power circuit or 2 when it trips, maybe you need to turn off the jug and clothes dryer while welding

My $200 arc welder is in good nick but nearly 10yo, it has never tripped the RCD yet even with bad job earthing. It only trips a 16A circuit breaker when it is cranked up high.

yep, this did get a bit off topic, transformers, which is what an arc welder is (except the inverter ones i know) have an efficiancy of about 90-95%, its the losses that normally cause the RCD to trip, they gotta go somewhere, and if they go to earth, tripped RCD. if it never used to trip it, you can get it srviced, the windings are probably losing there insulation properties, but unless it was a 3 phase one, i dont think the cost would be worth it. give it a clean up your self, make sure all the 240V side of things looks right. ie no damage to cord, plug top not burnt at all, and the cord still secure to the appliance. maybe even get it tested if ya know someone?? keep a note of what conditions your in when it does trip, is the ground wet, is it cranked up, all that stuff. i cant see how a bad earth on the the work side would trip an RCD, its still an "isolation transformer" so if it is causing problems, then id say make do with it, or buy another cheapie.

[Rainbow Warrior]

Silly question not asked yet, is the welder OK?
.

or get your welder serviced and the earth lead on it replaced.

I believe that touches on the subject!

Cheers, Dean

A bit, but to some people servicing a welder would be greasing the terminal threads, mind you there's not much else you could do with a Handyman arc unit anyway except an insulation & earthing test.

[-Scott-]

yep, this did get a bit off topic, transformers, which is what an arc welder is (except the inverter ones i know) have an efficiancy of about 90-95%, its the losses that normally cause the RCD to trip, they gotta go somewhere, and if they go to earth, tripped RCD.

I disagree. Yes, efficiency is never 100%, but the losses are typically resistive power losses in the windings and eddy currents producing heat in the core. They're not normally due to current running to earth.

If you're getting that much current down the earth wire there's an insulation problem somewhere or you're getting some really wierd coupling effects. If bad job earthing trips your RCD I'd say your welder is seriously unhealthy.

You can't put an industrial RCD in? Jeez, that sucks! Can you get your garage classified as an industrial site?

Scott

[Rainbow Warrior]

yep, this did get a bit off topic, transformers, which is what an arc welder is (except the inverter ones i know) have an efficiancy of about 90-95%, its the losses that normally cause the RCD to trip, they gotta go somewhere, and if they go to earth, tripped RCD.

I disagree. Yes, efficiency is never 100%, but the losses are typically resistive power losses in the windings and eddy currents producing heat in the core. They're not normally due to current running to earth.

If you're getting that much current down the earth wire there's an insulation problem somewhere or you're getting some really wierd coupling effects. If bad job earthing trips your RCD I'd say your welder is seriously unhealthy.

You can't put an industrial RCD in? Jeez, that sucks! Can you get your garage classified as an industrial site?

Scott

Wouldn't help, even industrial outlets have to be 30mA. You can only use 100mA to protect permanent wired things that don't have to be protected anyway.

[mickyd555]

yep, this did get a bit off topic, transformers, which is what an arc welder is (except the inverter ones i know) have an efficiancy of about 90-95%, its the losses that normally cause the RCD to trip, they gotta go somewhere, and if they go to earth, tripped RCD.

I disagree. Yes, efficiency is never 100%, but the losses are typically resistive power losses in the windings and eddy currents producing heat in the core. They're not normally due to current running to earth.

If you're getting that much current down the earth wire there's an insulation problem somewhere or you're getting some really wierd coupling effects. If bad job earthing trips your RCD I'd say your welder is seriously unhealthy.

You can't put an industrial RCD in? Jeez, that sucks! Can you get your garage classified as an industrial site?

Scott

good point NJ, i dunno what i was thinking.......i supose i was just looking for an answer too hard.......

[ToyTruck]

kranked_dirt ......... was it actually an RCD causing the problem OR was it just a standard 10Amp circuit breaker that tripped out???????

10Amp circuit breaker / wiring will definately NEED upgrade to 15Amp ... NO ifs or buts.
but if it was an rcd causing the problem then i would get an electrician to check out your RCD & welder setup.... dodgy welder , super sensitive RCD etc etc could keep speculating but that wont help you.
Maybe one of the "sparkies" who posted here could be close enough and kind enough to share a beer and check it out for ya ?!?


signed the burnt out electrician

[built4thrashing]

just aquestion to those that think they know it all but how do you go putting a new power point into a house with an old federal switch board without a RCD?

[ToyTruck]

built4thrashing the last time i checked .... which was yyyyyyyyyears ago was that NEW instalations in older switch board setups required RCD to be installed as well BUT service / repair of existing wiring didnt require addition of RCD ...... more of a technical loophole than any thing

[Tas_Dean]

built4thrashing the last time i checked .... which was yyyyyyyyyears ago was that NEW instalations in older switch board setups required RCD to be installed as well BUT service / repair of existing wiring didnt require addition of RCD ...... more of a technical loophole than any thing

I think you have it pretty much spot on. TECHNICALLY, the whole wiring would have to meet current standards, including RCD's etc, but depending on the electrician (and probably how you treat him), some will put it down as a repair, not an installation, thus sidestepping the rules.

Cheers, Dean

[mickyd555]

i think if its a new installation, only the section that you install has to legally be to current standards, but the cheapest way to do it is to put an RCD in the switchboard rather then one mounted on the GPO itself. but you have to remember that if you work on the switchboard, it too has to meet current standards. so the lights need to be RCD protected aswell.

[Tas_Dean]

i think if its a new installation, only the section that you install has to legally be to current standards, but the cheapest way to do it is to put an RCD in the switchboard rather then one mounted on the GPO itself. but you have to remember that if you work on the switchboard, it too has to meet current standards. so the lights need to be RCD protected aswell.

I think that these rules come down to individual regulatory bodies in each state, eg here in Tasmania Aurora Energy put out an Installation Guide, which has to be read in conjunction with the standards.

And I don't know about you, but I think the new (2000) standards are very open to interpretation!

Cheers, Dean