power upgrade to efi3.5???

[smac]

gday all,
im pretty new to this forum, i have a 86 3.5EFI Rangie. Just wondering what i can do to it to get some extra grunt from it. It has done over 260thou kms.
i beleive that it already has an aftermarket exhaust on it as it looks a lot bigger than standard (sounds ok at the back, not real lumpy though)
obviously air filter - what sort is recommended and easy to install??
Also, is there any decent Cams available for these ? a LandRover mechanic told me that my cam is warn due to it makeing a bit of noise, so if i was gonna replace it, it would be worth going a better one.

cheers,
Shem

[smac]

here is a pic for your interest...

[fridgefreezer]

Try ringing RPi, Lund Engines, or Real Steel, they all know their stuff and are usually happy to give out advice.

If your engine has done 260k a simple rebuild with new cam, lifters and (duplex if possible) timing chain should see it much better anyway, you can stick a stock 3.9 cam in at the same time for a bit more performance for not much extra outlay.

Oh and don't buy a hot cam from a speed shop, the power will be at the wrong end of the RPM range.

[smac]

i just got the quote to fix a heap of probs
Air flow meter, battery, efi service and a tune up - looking at around $1300. plus possibly an ignition module.

what do you guys recommend? get it done? or look at other options if there is any
whats a 3.9v8 worth?

[RaginRover]

i just got the quote to fix a heap of probs
Air flow meter, battery, efi service and a tune up - looking at around $1300. plus possibly an ignition module.

what do you guys recommend? get it done? or look at other options if there is any
whats a 3.9v8 worth?

That is pricey IMO,

AFM should be $500 second hand
Injector service/clean/reseal $180 ish
Plugs, leads, rotor, cap $160 ish
ignition module - hold off on that till you have done the rest.

Total = $840 parts

You engine really needs a cam etc as outlined by fridgefreezer
it will give it a nice tidy up. Are you sure the AFM is stuffed ??

Just a thought
Tom

[Loanrangie]

If you are handy with a soldering iron you can build a mega squirt ecu and get rid of that a/f meter for less than the replacement cost and have better tuning capabilities to boot - $1300 is way to steep for that.
Look up triumph rover spares on the net for cam/ lifters/ timing chain.
where are you located ?

[smac]

im in SA.
I rang triumph rover spares and they will sell me a 2nd hand AFM for 395 (not reconed). From what i can tell the AFM is stuffed, car runs very rich etc. My bro in law is an auto electrician and recommends these guys i went to, he said they are pretty good (probably a bit pricey though hey?)

in regard to that mega squirt ecu - i can solder, but i wouldnt have any idea on how to build it, unless it comes with some good instructions.

tomorrow im gonna ring another Rover shop here in SA and see what price they have AFMs for, and i thought i might try some shops in Vic/NSW.

Is there anyway that the AFM can be rebuilt?

[smac]

RaginRover - How do you do an Injector service/clean/reseal?

[ISUZUROVER]

My bro in law is an auto electrician

in regard to that mega squirt ecu - i can solder, but i wouldnt have any idea on how to build it, unless it comes with some good instructions.

How willing is your brother in law to help? surely the two of you could build and install the Megasquirt system?

[fridgefreezer]

If it's just running a bit too rich there are some verys imple remedies, b*ll*cks to paying out for a new AFM, as others have said you can ditch it and build a MegaSquirt for that kinda money.

Things that can make it run rich:

- AFM thinks too much air is getting in, you might be able to sort this by adjusting the bypass screw on the AFM. You can also give them a new lease of life by popping the top and ever so slightly bending the wiper arms, they wear a groove in the carbon tracks over the years, if you tweak the contacts by 1/2 a millimeter it's out of the groove and onto fresh carbon.

- A temperature sensor is dodgy, either coolant or the air temp sensor located in the AFM. Coolant one is an easy change and cheap enough, just make sure you get the coolant sensor (plastic) not the thermotime switch (brass).

- Injectors injecting too much fuel, this would most likely be down to a faulty fuel pressure reguator, another cheap 'n' easy thing to replace (just de-pressurise the system first, trust me!)

Lucas being Lucas there are probably 100 other things that could cause it, if you e-mail me I can send you a great big PDF file of the main dealer troubleshooting guide, will keep you going for weeks.

My 2p worth is rebuild the engine first, if the Lucas EFI is shagged then replace it with MSEFI after you've sorted the engine. Running a bit rich is not a major problem compared to a shagged cam / timing chain.

Just out of interest, how do you / did you diagnose it's running rich? By smell or a more scientific method?

[RaginRover]

RaginRover - How do you do an Injector service/clean/reseal?

Call a mobile bloke to come around and look do the service on site
yellow pages is as good as any and get some prices where are you somone here might be able to recommend one for you

Tom

[smac]

Just out of interest, how do you / did you diagnose it's running rich? By smell or a more scientific method?

1 by smell, and 2 by looking at the black smoke coming out the exhaust. especially when you rev it, you can see it a fair bit.

Im more interested in fixing the running rich problem, as it runs rough as guts as well, rather than replacing the cam, that is just noisy, hasnt actually presented any problems yet as far as i know (thats what a land rover mechanic said anyway about a year ago)

the way this mechanic the other day tested the air flow meter was buy having the rangie on a 4wd dyno and running some tests through it - he said its definately cactus.
Ill get the report he wrote out for me and put his points up here for you guys to see.

[smac]

Ok, this is what the report has:

Setup dyno etc tested all sensor wiring etc..

noted Air Flow Meter, Air Temp Sensor and Throttle Position Sensor to be out of ranges.
Calibrated Throttle Position Sensor, removed AFM Top and visually noted warn dirty tracks within. Cleaned and tested operation including attempt to calibrate - failed.
Battery was faulty as well (this was fitted).

Advise replace AFM and retest for anything further.
Other areas that may benefit is a EFI service and a calibration inc fuel filter (which i did about 12months ago).
Complete V8 dyno tune and exhaust analysis and mechanical inspection recommended.

[fridgefreezer]

If the air temp sensor is "out of range" (fotever the wuck he meant by that) it is probably assuming the air is really cold and chucking in extra fuel. Unfortunately the sensor is in the AFM :( although you could bypass it with a fixed or variable resistor if you fancy chopping into your loom a little.

If I were you I'd seriously consider ditching the Lucarse EFI for the amount of cash that new AFM and "calibration" will cost you.

[F'n_Rover]

go the megasquirt. I built one a while back, not too hard. there are a few blokes around running it on the 3.5's so you could get a fuel map emailed. that will be half the battle. If you get on the ms forum australian section you should be able to find someone who will sell you a built and tested unit for not a huge amount extra.



btw i haven't fitted mine yet , still waiting to finnish the new donk. Also not 100% confident in reliability so will be running lpg as well.

[smac]

cheers.
got a web site http://www.msefi.com
looks a bit interesting. will look into it.

im gonna try a 2nd hand afm tomorrow hopefully. but yeah, ultimately, i would rather dice lucas for sometgin better

[fridgefreezer]

There are a few fuel maps available online too, check out:
http://www.getmuddy.co.uk click on "megasquirt", or
http://www.spagweb.com/v8mini/gallery/05/01_squirting/

If you use the V8mini one you might need to adjust the MAP sensor type as Spag is running an old MS with the 115KPA sensor, you will want to set that to 250KPA - you'll see what I mean if/when the need arises

[smac]

this is all gonna be about 300bux, i can get a working second afm for 400bux, but seems like a lot less stuffin around. i can have the afm in tomorrow

[Philip A]

Geez I get a bit frustrated about this Megasquirt stuff.
Maybe what is wrong with his car is a combination of worn out injectors, worn out sensors, worn out AFM.
Won't he have too buy all new with a Megasquirt anyway (except the AFM)???
You guys trivialise what is a very involved process to tune a stand alone injection sysytem.
I have looked at the Megasquirt site several times and read the whole thing, and again today at the success stories. I didn't see ONE that suggested that someone had a Rover V8 up and running in a way suitable for everyday use. ie cold starts under all circumstances, stages down to warm idle withouit stalling, idles with hot soak, doesn't have flat spots in acceleration under certain circumstances etc etc. Car makers spend millions just to develop start up maps.
Its OK in the city but what if you are in the desert without the lap top and the thing will not start at minus 10 degrees???
As I said on the Rangie and Disco forum today , it takes 2 full days of dyno time for an expert to tune a Motec and that is a commercial proven system. And that is only an approximate tune. Without professional help, you could be fine tuning for weeks, or months before it runs correctly. And tehre is no professional with a dyno who knows anything about it.
Even the developers say that Megasquirt is experimental and not a mature system.
While I am interested in it and think it is a great development in affordable injection, I have already retro fitted injection to a 77 and am pretty aware of issues to be confronted.
Look I can understand your enthusiasm, but Megasquirts are for "nerds", not guys who do not know how to troubleshoot their existing injection.
Regards Philip A

[Big T]

Phillip A you are dead right, genuine well maintained injection on rovers is about as good as it gets. it is interesting to note that the same system is used on a 1986 rangie as is used on mid to late 70"s porsche and mercedes vehicles. I work on them all. I think it's more about maintainence than model. Rover cams wear out quick without proper oil changes, this is a maintainence issue. Don't forget to allow for labour costs when having your whinge about workshop charges. Just a thought!!

[smac]

good point fellas.
in regard to the 'whinge' on labour cost, i understand why they are expensive - they ran it on a 4wd dyno, and they are one of a few that actually have one in that area, also they gave me pretty good report on what is wrong.

ill be gettin the AFM tomorrow and bunging it in, hopefully that gets it running ok (read: reliably). i will do the other things over time. i seriously dont think that the leads and plugs need doing as it runs smooth when it is idling etc, it never seems to mis fire or anything, it is just slugish and is gutless and runs very rich.

from my own research, i dont think there is any point in working my 3.5 as it has done a heap of kms. I know i can get a 3.9 for around abotu 2500 and obviously there is the 4, 4.6 etc available which would be much better performance wise.
i wouldnt mind banging in a Diesel Turbo actually. maybe the new V6Diesel ?? ChevV8Turbo Diesel ?? all big money im sure.

Any one out there wanna sponsor it for me - ill put your name down the side of the car

thanks for your thoughts guys.
Shem Mac

[F'n_Rover]

Big t - you cant be serious in thinking an 86 efi setup is as good as it gets? pure puss . $400 for a afm - fark that

ms comp - $180.00
6 x v6 turbo calibra injecters brand new $100.00 (with injector loom)
throttle posistion sensor $35.00 brand new
engine temp sensor $free (v6 commi)
inlet air temp sensor $~10 new
fast idle solonoid $free
fuel pump $50
ego sensor $20

software for tuning and logging $free

add another $180 for another ms comp - I might run two (switchable)
for reliability.

shitty old laptop for tuning - just borrow one or spend $200 for a clunker

yeah its not for everyone - for one you have to be prepared to learn new stuff and not be intimidated by what you don't know. It's a bit of mucking around and not an overnight fix. but $400 for a afm????

This is for shure - you will never get maxium potential out of any motor
running a shitty 86 efi setup.

oh yeah - if i was getting $150 + an hour for dyno tuning i would also take 2 days to do it. You cant compare a $3000 + motec comp to a ms
the MS is fairly basic compared.

car makers spend millions to develop start up maps??
yeah cause they have to meet emission standards.

don't call me a nerd again.

[smac]

that all adds up to just under 300bux, plus the extra ms comp on 180 so your up near the 400bux anyway, but then i would have donkeys ages of messin around with it to get it to work properly, time that i dont have. when all i really want is for it to work reliably

[F'n_Rover]

yeah thats cool, i can understand that.
below is worth a read ripped from -http://www.roversd1.com/fuel_injection.htm

The Lucas 4CU fuel injection ECU (fitted on 3.5 vehicles up to late 1986. the
system design is very good and a 3.5 Rover SD1 with a rebuilt ECU has excellent performance with economy of about 25 mpg in normal use.
The airflow meter is the most reliable part of the system and should NEVER be opened/adjusted/cleaned or lubricated.
The wiper and flap tension mechanism are located under the rectangular plastic cover (approx 2.5 by 3.5 inches) on the top of the airflow meter. The airflow meter is a precision mechanical balance and is sealed for life at the factory - the plastic cover should never be removed. The mechanism should NEVER be adjusted or lubricated or cleaned - it is meant to look as if the wiper arms have scored the carbon tracks!
If this cover is loose it has been removed. Do not mistake factory resin sealer beads for evidence that cover has been forced off - look for scratches and/or loose cover. If there is no evidence cover has been removed LEAVE IT ALONE and do not attempt adjustment - IT IS NOT WORTH THE PROBLEMS UNNECESSARY ADJUSTMENT WILL CAUSE!
Also - Please be aware that airflow meters from vehicles fitted with LPG gas may have suffered from blowback damage which may make any re-adjustment ineffective. ALWAYS ask owners of LPG vehicles if they have had blowback problems.
If the airflow meter has been opened AND 'adjusted' in an attempt to overcome running problems caused by ECU failure, it MAY be necessary to re-adjust the spring tension after the ECU problems have been rectified. ALWAYS ROAD TEST WITH YOUR REBUILT ECU - there may be no need to re-adjust airflow meter! If car runs fine and CO is adjustable then airflow meter should be OK.
3.5 Range Rover LPG Gas Conversion Problems
Please check here for late model V8 with blowback problems whilst running on gas.
we have seen many airflow meters from LPG gas converted 3.5 models that have suffered physical damage due to induction side blowback. This forces the airflow meter flap backwards and results in distortion of the flap spindle. A possible cause is lean running when switching from LPG to petrol (or vice versa) with engine running. Later type hot wire airmass meters are also suffering blowback damage.
Blowback damage to airflow meters can be reduced or avoided by ensuring air intake hose retaining clamps are loose enough to separate by hand. When a blow back occurs, the hose should be loose enough to allow separation from the airflow meter and/or throttle body and release pressure thus acting as a pressure relief valve protecting the airflow meter. If the retaining clamps are too tight, there is no pressure release if blowback occurs. This results
in destruction of airflow meter. LOOSEN THESE RETAINING CLAMPS NOW!
If the airflow meter has been opened AND 'adjusted' in an attempt to overcome running problems caused by ECU failure, it MAY be necessary to re-adjust the spring tension after the ECU problems have been rectified. ALWAYS ROAD TEST WITH YOUR REBUILT ECU - there may be no need to re-adjust airflow meter! If car runs fine and CO is adjustable then airflow meter should be OK.
Re-adjustment Procedure
1) Before commencing re-adjustment it is VITAL that ALL possible problems that could affect correct engine operation have been sorted. This includes head gasket failures, ignition advance/retard fully working, ECU rebuild and coolant temperature changed + full service carried out.
2) If possible, compare flap tension with another airflow meter by comparing effort needed to move flap. There should be about an initial one quarter inch of low resistance to movement which corresponds to engine idle speed. After this position, flap tension should increase and be constant throughout remainder of movement range. There should be no roughness or tight spots. It is NOT possible to adequately test these airflow meters with an ohmmeter.
3) Run engine up to normal operating temperature. Test emissions and idle CO adjustment with air bypass screw. IF CO adjustment is not possible, remove airflow meter cover and MARK current position of spring tension ratchet with Tipp-Ex. INCREASE SPRING TENSION TO WEAKEN MIXTURE. DECREASE SPRING TENSION TO RICHEN MIXTURE. Do this one or two clicks at a time testing for CO adjustability each time - as soon as you can adjust CO with air bypass screw you are there! If you run into problems reset ratchet to original position.[url][/url]

[smac]

hey, thanks mate.
interesting.

I personally am interested in the Megasquirt system, but i dont have the time/know how at the mo. Need the rover running. maybe on a truck in the future ill give it a go.
from what ive been lookin into, im basically gonna do the AFM, then keep it for about 6months and get rid of the rangie. it has a few other issues ilke slipping trans etc (not too bad yet).

[Loanrangie]

By the way, you can build a megasquirt that will plug straight into a rover loom unmodified and run, just a matter of arranging the pinouts and removing the maf, all factory sensors are used. Only an O2 sensor is required for finer tuning.

[smac]

By the way, you can build a megasquirt that will plug straight into a rover loom unmodified and run, just a matter of arranging the pinouts and removing the maf, all factory sensors are used. Only an O2 sensor is required for finer tuning.

anyone wanna do this for me?

i installed the AFM and it is worse than what i had in there. so ill be taking it back and saying "your Good Working AFM is CRAP".

Anyone know anything about the IDLE AIR CONTROL VALVE, the FUEL TEMP SENSOR or the INERTIA FUEL SHUTOFF SWITCH ??

Any one know where i can get a known good working AFM to test in my rangie?

[F'n_Rover]

do some basic checks first . comp test / fuel pressure etc. Make sure your base engine isn't the problem.

re afm - suggest you fit your questionable one to a known working setup.
you could have multible issues !!!

also try the hack process of elimination. disconnect componants one by one and look for any differance in operation. that website i ripped from a few posts up had some good info.

[fridgefreezer]

Philip A: I don't want to start an argument but I have to say you're just plain wrong about several important things regarding MegaSquirt.

"Maybe what is wrong with his car is a combination of worn out injectors, worn out sensors, worn out AFM."

If the injectors are worn / down on flow it doesn't matter because you can just increase the fuelling to compensate. Not the best solution but it will work fine for a considerable length of time (years).

"Won't he have too buy all new with a Megasquirt anyway (except the AFM)???"

No - it uses all the EFi hardware that's already there. Injectors, throttle pot, coolant sensor. You need a new air temp sensor ($2) to replace the one in the now redundant AFM, and a lambda sensor ($20) if you intend on tuning it.

"You guys trivialise what is a very involved process to tune a stand alone injection sysytem."

Err, it's not that difficult. You don't need to spend days on a dyno, you just throw in a base map from one of the many available for the RV8 online, and then sit someone in the passenger seat with the laptop and let them get on with it as you drive.

"I have looked at the Megasquirt site several times and read the whole thing, and again today at the success stories. I didn't see ONE that suggested that someone had a Rover V8 up and running in a way suitable for everyday use."

Look again then.
Ones that are in everyday use / could be used everyday if they were needed are:

Dan:


Ashley:


Dave:


Puff:


Spag:


Dave White:

(Entering the Outback Challenge running MS'n'S)

Gavin - no photo 'cos he's taken the truck apart now.

And mine was also running fine until I took it apart.

I know Dan's has been used a lot recently as he had to rebuild the daily driver (300TDi Disco) so was / is commuting in the Rangie.

"Car makers spend millions just to develop start up maps."

No-one's saying these are mapped to within the accuracy you'd get from a manufacturer. However, even though half of the above are running my not-very-good base fuel map they still go at least as well as they did on the flapper EFi. The lambda sensor also takes care of the fuel economy aspect so the map being "out" does not matter once you're rolling. I had a terrible map in mine for a while, about 20% too rich across the board, and I still hit 15-20mpg on a day's playing.

"As I said on the Rangie and Disco forum today... ...Without professional help, you could be fine tuning for weeks, or months before it runs correctly. And tehre is no professional with a dyno who knows anything about it."

Righty:
1) You can get a vehicle from not starting to running on MS in a day, even with no base map to start with. I know, because that's how we did mine.

2) You can get it to a drivable map in about an hour's tuning or less, just driving on the road.

3) You can fine tune using MSTWeak and data-logging, which can take a data log from any journey and suggest new tuning settings. This will get you to within a few % of ideal for most of your map, at least the bits you use the most on the road. The other few areas either don't really matter or can be set pretty close by taking a look at the values around them.

4) There are several professionals with dynos who know about it. And a fuel map is a fuel map - you either want more fuel or less fuel at any given point on the map, it's not rocket science even if the keyboard shortcut on MegaTune is different to Alpha / Webcon / Omex's software.

Not that the dyno owner needs to know - if you've got the use of a rolling road and MSTWeak you can data log for as many load/rpm points as the rolling road can create.

5) Just how accurately tuned are most carb setups? Compared to EFi most carbs are so far off the scale it's unreal, yet they are all aparrently perfectly drivable and usable. You don't need to be super accurate to get a very drivable vehicle.

"Even the developers say that Megasquirt is experimental and not a mature system."

Mainly to avoid stupid people expecting it to plug straight in and run like a dream. It does require user input, if they didn't disclaim this can you imagine the number of idiots they'd be flooded with treating it like a commercial product?

"Megasquirts are for "nerds", not guys who do not know how to troubleshoot their existing injection."

I know how to troubleshoot existing injection systems, but quite frankly I find it faster to drop in a MS ECU (down to 90 minutes now to do this) and then be able to plug a laptop in and *see* what's wrong.

I've used this to "troubleshoot" several vehicles now, and all have shown up things that would have taken more time & money to find with the old system.

[smac]

thanks mate.
I actually have the rangie in at British4X4 at the mo - looks like he has found some real problems, not this damb crap those other guys tried to rip me off with.

I possibly will do a MS system later on down the track. It seems very interesting and I am a bit of a "nerd", so its right down my alley. Just at the moment, i need it running and dont want to muck around, i would rather get all the info and do it slowly to get it right. I also dont know what is and what isnt working on my EFI system - there has been some dodge ups which this guy is fixing at the moment.

thanks for your info Fridgefreezer