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Gas Safe????
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Gas Safe????
My friend has a 100 series landcruiser in petrol. It is very thirsty and i sugested he get it converted to gas. He is concerned about the safety level of having gas in his car.......is gas really that unsafe or is ot quite a stable form of combustion?????
LPG is probably safer than petrol (if the system is installed correctly). I don't think there has been a LPG tank explosion in Australia (as a dirct result of a car accident), but there are many accidents that have caused a petrol tank to explode (or at least break).
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RUFF wrote:Beally STFU Your becoming a real PITA.
But why did it backfire????
Early falcons had a plastic pcv valve with a metal ball. SOME gas installers changed these to all metal (in taxis) and some didn't. If the vehicle backfires, it blows the plastic pcv valve apart and the ball drops into the engine. Was the cause of many "lunched" motors in falcon cabs.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that if gas is installed and tuned correctly, it is brilliant. If not done properly, it can be the cause of lots of heartache (or your wallet burning!).
As isuzu Rover points out, gas is extremely safe. Only in the movies do cars explode! As gas systems are fully sealed, there is very little chance of an explosion, as there is no vapour, unlike petrol which has to have a ventilated tank.
What I was taught in the fire service (and also in refrigeration studies) is that gas tanks generally only "catch fire" when the cylinder is involved in an external fire, that heats the tank up, increasing the pressure in the tank until the overpressure valve vents, and that is when you see a "flame thrower" effect. Even under this circumstance, it is still extremely rare for a tank to explode!
Cheers, Dean
Early falcons had a plastic pcv valve with a metal ball. SOME gas installers changed these to all metal (in taxis) and some didn't. If the vehicle backfires, it blows the plastic pcv valve apart and the ball drops into the engine. Was the cause of many "lunched" motors in falcon cabs.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that if gas is installed and tuned correctly, it is brilliant. If not done properly, it can be the cause of lots of heartache (or your wallet burning!).
As isuzu Rover points out, gas is extremely safe. Only in the movies do cars explode! As gas systems are fully sealed, there is very little chance of an explosion, as there is no vapour, unlike petrol which has to have a ventilated tank.
What I was taught in the fire service (and also in refrigeration studies) is that gas tanks generally only "catch fire" when the cylinder is involved in an external fire, that heats the tank up, increasing the pressure in the tank until the overpressure valve vents, and that is when you see a "flame thrower" effect. Even under this circumstance, it is still extremely rare for a tank to explode!
Cheers, Dean
LilBlkDuck wrote:Hmmmmm, ever had a back fire in a fuel injected donk on Gas?
Not pretty.
Ummmm yeah - two days ago - my rangie - what is your point ?
The problem is when you don't have a path for the energy to go the falcons busted air boxes and bent bonnets because of the sealed nature of their air box, the force of the backfire couldn't be directed anywhere so it forces its way out.
Fit a back fire arrestor and that will at least give the energy somewhere to go where it won't blow things up. I have read also that they recommend leaving the clamps on the intake loose so it can blow the pipe off.
An arrestor is much neater than that.
Gas is safe, the tanks are sealed from the cargo area and vented underneath the car so there is no risk there. One of the best things is that gas is dense and falls so it "runs away" so to speak rather than petrol that sits in a vapour cloud.
I have had LPG on both my rangies and as long as the igintion system is up to it they were fine.
Tom
Just thought I'd point out that this "Factory gas fitted" Falcon I once owned did all of the above. blew the air box, dented the bonnet, retarded the engine enough to allow the timing chain to double up a link and cracked a hole the size of my fist in the timing case. $3K later it was all fixed and I sold it to a guy who drives Taxi's 
As far as the tanks being safe, yeah no probs there. As Bazzle said thousands of taxi's use it.
I'm sure they've progressed to the point now where this never happens
As far as the tanks being safe, yeah no probs there. As Bazzle said thousands of taxi's use it.
I'm sure they've progressed to the point now where this never happens
Lifted, locked, loaded, reduced, rolled, and rowed
FZJ80, 1FZ-FE, A442F, 37's & 5.29's.
FZJ80, 1FZ-FE, A442F, 37's & 5.29's.
Road Ranger
#Tiny wrote:Petrol tanks don't blow up either, they just burn vigerously. dont beleive the movies.
it's not terribly difficult for a petrol tank to create a boiling liquid vapour explosion.. Tank gets hot enuff ruputres releasing a huge amount of readily vapourised volitile liquid with a sudden increase in surface area .. = BOOM
It's not huge like the movies, but I still would not like to be to close to it when it pops.
LPG cylinders\tanks have pressure relief vales and excess flow valves (so if a line ruptures it will not empty its entire contents out that hole at great pressure)
as for LPG @ servos etc .. it's heaps safer than petrol..
A gas tank can do the same thing but it would need to be a mechanical rupture of the tank (meaning punctured/torn) by something, would create an explosion like a petrol tank, but with no superheated liquids flying around to stick to things and continue burning..
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
.
a few of the guys here are work have mentioned that the taxes for gas will be going up shortly and that it wouldn't be worth while to have a gas conversion. Has anyone else heard of this? i thought both economy levels for fuel and gas are the same but i thought the saving would come from the reduced price of gas????
does anyone know how long it's rated that you would pay back the price of the conversion from your savings in petrol?
does anyone know how long it's rated that you would pay back the price of the conversion from your savings in petrol?
Re: .
lowndsie wrote:a few of the guys here are work have mentioned that the taxes for gas will be going up shortly and that it wouldn't be worth while to have a gas conversion. Has anyone else heard of this? i thought both economy levels for fuel and gas are the same but i thought the saving would come from the reduced price of gas????
does anyone know how long it's rated that you would pay back the price of the conversion from your savings in petrol?
2011 last I heard, as far as not being worth it - if you are handy and install could cost a real novice under $1000 or a more experienced individual under $500.
That is bugger all and your savings will be very nearly instant. There are a lot of tanks of LPG to be had between now and 2011
Tom
Road Ranger
love_mud wrote:#Tiny wrote:Petrol tanks don't blow up either, they just burn vigerously. dont beleive the movies.
it's not terribly difficult for a petrol tank to create a boiling liquid vapour explosion.. Tank gets hot enuff ruputres releasing a huge amount of readily vapourised volitile liquid with a sudden increase in surface area .. = BOOM
It's not huge like the movies, but I still would not like to be to close to it when it pops.
LPG cylinders\tanks have pressure relief vales and excess flow valves (so if a line ruptures it will not empty its entire contents out that hole at great pressure)
as for LPG @ servos etc .. it's heaps safer than petrol..
A gas tank can do the same thing but it would need to be a mechanical rupture of the tank (meaning punctured/torn) by something, would create an explosion like a petrol tank, but with no superheated liquids flying around to stick to things and continue burning..
Petrol tanks do not BLEVE......they are not pressure vessels and will force the liquids out the various filler and vent orifices allowing large plumes of burning fuel, but will not explode (BLEVE) further, if a petrol tanks does catch alight it is generally due to the tank been ruptured due to stresses caused from and impact, so as there in no chance for pressure to build up no BLEVE
Gas tanks will need significant exposure to flame before the reliaf valve can no longer keep up. It is correct that the relive valve will ofter unexpectadly vent, and can ignite and shoot flame like a flame thrower, but poperly installed systems will vent under the vehicle and out of harms way.
Neither petrol nor LPG car can be deemed safer than the other, however special care must be taken when faced with cars with LPG fitted, due the risck of PUVCE and of course in the event of fire, a BLEVE
If the above post did not offend you in any way please PM me so I can try harder!!
#Tiny wrote:love_mud wrote:#Tiny wrote:Petrol tanks don't blow up either, they just burn vigerously. dont beleive the movies.
it's not terribly difficult for a petrol tank to create a boiling liquid vapour explosion.. Tank gets hot enuff ruputres releasing a huge amount of readily vapourised volitile liquid with a sudden increase in surface area .. = BOOM
It's not huge like the movies, but I still would not like to be to close to it when it pops.
LPG cylinders\tanks have pressure relief vales and excess flow valves (so if a line ruptures it will not empty its entire contents out that hole at great pressure)
as for LPG @ servos etc .. it's heaps safer than petrol..
A gas tank can do the same thing but it would need to be a mechanical rupture of the tank (meaning punctured/torn) by something, would create an explosion like a petrol tank, but with no superheated liquids flying around to stick to things and continue burning..
Petrol tanks do not BLEVE......they are not pressure vessels and will force the liquids out the various filler and vent orifices allowing large plumes of burning fuel, but will not explode (BLEVE) further, if a petrol tanks does catch alight it is generally due to the tank been ruptured due to stresses caused from and impact, so as there in no chance for pressure to build up no BLEVE
Gas tanks will need significant exposure to flame before the reliaf valve can no longer keep up. It is correct that the relive valve will ofter unexpectadly vent, and can ignite and shoot flame like a flame thrower, but poperly installed systems will vent under the vehicle and out of harms way.
Neither petrol nor LPG car can be deemed safer than the other, however special care must be taken when faced with cars with LPG fitted, due the risck of PUVCE and of course in the event of fire, a BLEVE
I stil fail to see how thats not a BLVE ?? By my definition it's the vapour of a boiling liquid going boom .. (my definition may be wrong
)
I assume that your involved in the emergancy services, possibly seen cars burn etc ..
Often the car will be burning . and then bang .. tank goes up (not flipping the car over etc like the movies) but still quite a definate event ..
Also a properly functioning gas system will vent easily, but after a few years of crud building up in a relief valve they can take signifigantly more presure to open that first time.. made for great air cannons .. at the workshop.
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
Road Ranger
love_mud wrote:#Tiny wrote:love_mud wrote:#Tiny wrote:Petrol tanks don't blow up either, they just burn vigerously. dont beleive the movies.
it's not terribly difficult for a petrol tank to create a boiling liquid vapour explosion.. Tank gets hot enuff ruputres releasing a huge amount of readily vapourised volitile liquid with a sudden increase in surface area .. = BOOM
It's not huge like the movies, but I still would not like to be to close to it when it pops.
LPG cylinders\tanks have pressure relief vales and excess flow valves (so if a line ruptures it will not empty its entire contents out that hole at great pressure)
as for LPG @ servos etc .. it's heaps safer than petrol..
A gas tank can do the same thing but it would need to be a mechanical rupture of the tank (meaning punctured/torn) by something, would create an explosion like a petrol tank, but with no superheated liquids flying around to stick to things and continue burning..
Petrol tanks do not BLEVE......they are not pressure vessels and will force the liquids out the various filler and vent orifices allowing large plumes of burning fuel, but will not explode (BLEVE) further, if a petrol tanks does catch alight it is generally due to the tank been ruptured due to stresses caused from and impact, so as there in no chance for pressure to build up no BLEVE
Gas tanks will need significant exposure to flame before the reliaf valve can no longer keep up. It is correct that the relive valve will ofter unexpectadly vent, and can ignite and shoot flame like a flame thrower, but poperly installed systems will vent under the vehicle and out of harms way.
Neither petrol nor LPG car can be deemed safer than the other, however special care must be taken when faced with cars with LPG fitted, due the risck of PUVCE and of course in the event of fire, a BLEVE
I stil fail to see how thats not a BLVE ?? By my definition it's the vapour of a boiling liquid going boom .. (my definition may be wrong
I assume that your involved in the emergancy services, possibly seen cars burn etc ..
Often the car will be burning . and then bang .. tank goes up (not flipping the car over etc like the movies) but still quite a definate event ..
Also a properly functioning gas system will vent easily, but after a few years of crud building up in a relief valve they can take signifigantly more presure to open that first time.. made for great air cannons .. at the workshop.
Yes im with the RFS, and the BLEVE is a boiling liquid EVAPERATING vapour explosion.
Yes the gas cylinder will vent easily, and as you say, can crud up and also become faulty. the relief valve, however is only there to allow for normal change in ambient temp, and will not cope with prelonges exposure to extrem heat by direct flame.
What yoou see when a car is alight, then suddenly "explosivly" ignoted furter, is that the fire has reached the tank, and probably allowed fuel to spill out, cousing extremlu large flame 5 or so metres into the air. this will continue until the fuel burns out.
If the above post did not offend you in any way please PM me so I can try harder!!
OK for my second post
BLEVE stands for Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion and only relates to flammable gases. It requires the complete mechanical failure of the pressure vessel to release ALL the contents basically at once which then burns/explodes.
PUVCE is a Percussive Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion - the gas has already been released and is ignited.
I have been to quite a number of vehicle fires (gas/petrol/diesel) in my time as a firefighter (both volunteer and career) and have yet to see an undamaged tank "explode" in fact often you can hear the petrol boiling in the tank.
LPG cyliders are certainly treated with a lot more caution, because in the event of a failure the results are more destructive.
Both LPG and Petrol created vapours that are heavier than air and hence will accumulate in low areas.
Consider that LPG cylinders are mechanically MUCH stronger than a petrol tank that may in fact be plastic.
In NSW as far as I am aware the LPG installation has to be inspected each year prior to rego, so in theory should be maintained in better condition than say your average fuel system.
For my monies worth I wouldn't have any reservations about an LPG installation provided it is done correctly and maintained.
M
BLEVE stands for Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion and only relates to flammable gases. It requires the complete mechanical failure of the pressure vessel to release ALL the contents basically at once which then burns/explodes.
PUVCE is a Percussive Unconfined Vapour Cloud Explosion - the gas has already been released and is ignited.
I have been to quite a number of vehicle fires (gas/petrol/diesel) in my time as a firefighter (both volunteer and career) and have yet to see an undamaged tank "explode" in fact often you can hear the petrol boiling in the tank.
LPG cyliders are certainly treated with a lot more caution, because in the event of a failure the results are more destructive.
Both LPG and Petrol created vapours that are heavier than air and hence will accumulate in low areas.
Consider that LPG cylinders are mechanically MUCH stronger than a petrol tank that may in fact be plastic.
In NSW as far as I am aware the LPG installation has to be inspected each year prior to rego, so in theory should be maintained in better condition than say your average fuel system.
For my monies worth I wouldn't have any reservations about an LPG installation provided it is done correctly and maintained.
M
Turn your snorkel head to face backwards, it works a treat and doesn't get mud down the intake as well.
Turning you snorkel around helps but if you get the gas tunned properly and the balance port fitted in the correct place , then the systerm will work correctly.
88 GQ SWB 5''SUS LIFT 60MM BODY LIFT, FRONT LOKKA, NOW WITH 304, ...... :D
www.roverpark.com
www.roverpark.com
A gas tank will BLEVE under the right conditions and will be much more dangerous than a fuel tank igniting.
Don't be fooled by pressure relief valves they are designed to vent slowly but will not vent enough pressure for an explosion due to ignition only a properly designed explosion hatch/bursting disc will do that.
We have Class 3 solvent/fuel storage tanks at work (total capacity of 1.2 million litres) and have just upgraded the explosion protection hatches and flame/spark arrestor systems on our tanks. Pressure relief is one thing explosion relief is a totally different ballgame.
I've also seen lots of safety doco's on gas tank BLEVE's not very pretty at all........................
Don't be fooled by pressure relief valves they are designed to vent slowly but will not vent enough pressure for an explosion due to ignition only a properly designed explosion hatch/bursting disc will do that.
We have Class 3 solvent/fuel storage tanks at work (total capacity of 1.2 million litres) and have just upgraded the explosion protection hatches and flame/spark arrestor systems on our tanks. Pressure relief is one thing explosion relief is a totally different ballgame.
I've also seen lots of safety doco's on gas tank BLEVE's not very pretty at all........................
I just luv my "clacker Jabber"
My dads rodeo used to run on LPG, it was a dual fuel system. I'd say it was an early conversion as the switch for Petrol/Gas has something like "Gore Research" on it. Problem is it started leaking for some reason when he was driving, he took it to get looked at but apparently they couldn't find the problem or they couldn't fix it so its back to guzzling the expensive stuff now.
In the event of something like a leak happening they are dangerous I suppose. The fire service didn't seem to care though, they just said leave it there... even though it was full of gas. It did disperse after a while though.
In the event of something like a leak happening they are dangerous I suppose. The fire service didn't seem to care though, they just said leave it there... even though it was full of gas. It did disperse after a while though.
The LPG industry has been particularly concerned since the May Budget that the new excise regime would send the sector broke. Under the changes announced today, LPG for cars, previously free of excise, will be taxed by 2.5 cents per litre from mid-2008. That'll go up to an eventual rate of 12.5 cents per litre by 2012.
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s1011376.htm
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s1011376.htm
LPG Gas
Do a search on google you find heaps of information there
Before i brought my GQ V8 on gas i did a bit of searching cause I and the GF thought the same thing. Once I found information about how safe they were it made us both feel better.
Also gas has a higher ignition point then petrol
Before i brought my GQ V8 on gas i did a bit of searching cause I and the GF thought the same thing. Once I found information about how safe they were it made us both feel better.
Also gas has a higher ignition point then petrol
Bitsamissin wrote:A gas tank will BLEVE under the right conditions and will be much more dangerous than a fuel tank igniting.
Don't be fooled by pressure relief valves they are designed to vent slowly but will not vent enough pressure for an explosion due to ignition only a properly designed explosion hatch/bursting disc will do that.
We have Class 3 solvent/fuel storage tanks at work (total capacity of 1.2 million litres) and have just upgraded the explosion protection hatches and flame/spark arrestor systems on our tanks. Pressure relief is one thing explosion relief is a totally different ballgame.
I've also seen lots of safety doco's on gas tank BLEVE's not very pretty at all........................
From this site here
http://www.csu.edu.au/faculty/health/ae ... ter_12.htm
BLEVE - An entire community was involved at Mississauga, Ontario, Canada when 250,000 had to be evacuated to avert disaster following a train accident which triggered a series of bleves (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosions). Liquefied gas Bleves have occurred in Cairns (1987 - 1 dead, 24 injured) and in Sydney where fortunately, there were no casualties.
The area where this occured is now the harvey norman shop and hypermarket centre.
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2008 Patrol wagon and 99 Patrol TD Ute
Cairns
Cairns
LPG Gas
Even though this is going a bit off topic have a read of this
http://www.dccouncil.washington.dc.us/p ... xcerpt.doc
I have been told about how gas can BLEVE but it take extreme heat
http://www.dccouncil.washington.dc.us/p ... xcerpt.doc
I have been told about how gas can BLEVE but it take extreme heat
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