resplining axle shop in Melbourne ?

[F'n_Rover]

can any one recomend a good place to get axles shortend and resplined
in Melbourne..

also if someone has had it done what sort of $$$ should i expect to pay

thanks

Simon

[ISUZUROVER]

Macnamara?

Resplined axles won't be as strong as the original axles, but you probably already know that (and it probably won't make that much of a difference).

[F'n_Rover]

rang mac today. he said he didn't do resplines ? wtf . he then mumbled something about something, didnt want to pick his brain too much, he sounded kinda grumpy.

How come not as strong? are they case hardend?

btw i am looking to cut the toy axels off at the 27? spline cv end.
i will be cutting off the thinner section at ~ the seal face and then grinding down to the cv spline diam with a proper blend in radius then polishing to remove stress risers. then respline...
this is the easiest way i can think to get a toy centre into a series.

thanks

[Slunnie]

Easiest? Wont JacMac just make them from scratch?

Yeah, Jeff is difficult to talk to. There is another fella in there who is pretty good though.

[F'n_Rover]

easiest - read cheapest

plus spares cheap. just gota find snapped toy's any length as long as they are broken at the cv. magnaflux, grind, polish and respline

how much should i pay for a broken axle?

[ISUZUROVER]

How come not as strong? are they case hardend?

btw i am looking to cut the toy axels off at the 27? spline cv end.
i will be cutting off the thinner section at ~ the seal face and then grinding down to the cv spline diam with a proper blend in radius then polishing to remove stress risers. then respline...
this is the easiest way i can think to get a toy centre into a series.

Most stock axles will be induction (case) hardenend. So if you machine them down too much you will be past the case hardened section and they will be as soft as butter. If they are through hardened they will be a bit softer but probably not a lot softer than the outer metal.

Resplining on the original outer section is OK on both.

I don't quite understand what you want to do - are you trying to connect a toyota axle to a rover CV? If so, you can dismantle both sets of CV's and rebuild a new CV with toyota inners and rover outers (27 spline inner, rover bell). But one of the toy axles will not be the right length.

What happened to fitting toyota CV's as well?

I think the cheapest way (if you have access to a lathe) would be to use the toyota CV's, a cruiser short axle (right length) and buy one axle from jacmac for the long side - $300ish (or respline a toy if you can find a longer axle).

[zzzz]

rockcrusher will cut and spline axles for you
well they will do it with blanks anyways

cheers

z

[HSV Rangie]

Geelong differentials will.
Custom gears and axles.

Greasable CV's for toys.
makes detroit lockers (under licence)) to fit toy t/case ect.
Michael.

[F'n_Rover]

thanks Ben,

i am trying to insert toy shafts and cv's into a standard length series 111
housing. even 40 series toy stuff is around 1 - 2" too long. (eyeballed only) So i need to cut down the toy axle shaft to the right length & respline .

if its not possible to get this setup heaps stronger than the original 10 spline rover stuff there is obviously no point. also $$$ if i can't do it heaps cheaper than custom macs then again there is no point.

[ISUZUROVER]

thanks Ben,

i am trying to insert toy shafts and cv's into a standard length series 111
housing. even 40 series toy stuff is around 1 - 2" too long. (eyeballed only) So i need to cut down the toy axle shaft to the right length & respline .

If that is the case then it would be better (as well as cheaper and easier) to chop off the 30 spline end of the axles and get that end resplined. That way you are resplining the original outer diameter, so it should be about the same strength (the toy axles aren't necked down are they?).

Sounds like an interesting idea for a cheap but strong drivetrain. Kep us posted on how it works out. May be interested in doing something similar to my father's IIA shorty.

[F'n_Rover]

allright some good news i think:

i spoke to my work neighbour today about it. He is a precision cylindrical grinder who does a lot of race prep work (non 4x4).
showed him what i am looking to do re - resplining.

i asked him about the case hardening and about normalising the shaft and re hardening. He said yeah can do it but why bother just make a new shaft.

yeah cool i said but how much for the u bute steel?

he said "EN36A about $5.50 kilo" (normalised ie non tempered / raw)
"bla bla up the road sell it. ex stock"
(not quite sure if this is the stuff i need but a good example)

what about case hardening

he said "$40 minimum should do 4 per batch ?? (induction hardening)
just tell them what hardness (rockwell ?) and the depth of hardening"

i said what about splining

he said "per hour rate at a big company he uses is $80 per hour but that is not the killer, its the set up cost. This will depend on the type of spline. ie : if its an off the shelf tool used to cut the splines or an imported / custom tool. Depends on the pitch bla bla bla..

What about machining the blank billit

he said "any monkey with a bullshit lathe is more than capable"
(kool as i'm going to do it myself )
also "get the closest billet diam to what you need"
something about the way the billet is made. If you machine too much off the final product needs to be stress relived. ????

from all this i get the impression its about the same cost to make a new axle as to do a respline (properly). but more running around.

rough ball park finnished costs :
front set en36a around - $300
or
two sets - $400
(plus mabie a slab or two also all cash money)
set up costs for the respline, the killer, more you do in a batch the cheaper. above costs vary, cheaper to go 30 spline to 30 spline rather than 30 spline to 27 spline for example as then you only have one set up cost.

Also asked about the temper of the axle shaft. he did not know but said if you know waht you after not too much $$ (similar to case hardening)

going to a bit more home work on axle tech. Mainly what alloy steel is the go / what case hardness and depth / what temper is the base steel.

Ben - the axles i have step down in diam from the 30 spline section to the shaft then step down again to the cv spline end 20 something spline.
ie the outer diam of the splines is greater than the shaft.



PLEASE NOTE : this guy is not an axle expert but i think does know his stuff.

also - how come i never needed any of this shit before i started reading the crap on this forum??

[ISUZUROVER]

Popeye. I think by the time you do all this, any money you save over buying JM axles will be more than used up in time.

Last prices I saw were $550 a pair for JM front axles, and about $600 rear. If your axles cost you $300 a pair it is not much of a saving.

However if you are going to do it, I don't think EN36A would be the best choice (seems to be more suited to gear manufacture). Some good axle steels are...

AMS6418 (HYTUF) - used by maxi drive
300M (4340M) - very $$$ used in the US for CTM axles
4340 - many aftermarket axles
EN25 - JM axles (and others)

Most of these steels achieve the best properties when through hardened, not case hardened.

SAE 1541 is a common automotive axle steel that is quite good and is usually case hardened, not through hardened.

With axle manufacture the hardening and tempering process is critical, if you want to create an axle that works like it should, not a breadstick or comething made of glass. However a good heat treater should know the best way to heat treat a particular steel.

However, if you want to continue, here is some info on the toyota 30 spline I have worked out. The 45 degree pressure angle should be easy for most places to cut. I assume the 27 spline is also 45 degree PA but you would have to verify yourself. If you want 30 spline both ends you could buy longfields, but for $450US a pair plus shipping that would blow your budget.

Toyota 30 SPLINE
Involute form?, flat root side fit?,
45 o PA,
Major dia 32.5mm (1.28") Root dia 30.8mm (1.21")
Zp (polar section) .??


Some info on EN36A is below (link to more info).

CASE HARDENING STEEL EN 36A

EN 36A is a Nickel-Chrome carburising steel, generally supplied annealed to HB 229 max. Carburised and heat treated it develops a hard wear resistant case of about Rc 60-63 and a tough strong core with a typical tensile strength range of 850-1200 Mpa, in a small to fairly large sections.
Typical Applications

Heavy-duty gears, bushes, ring gears, shafts, collets, king pins, sprockets etc. Or can be used uncarburised but suitably heat-treated for high tensile applications.
Welding

Readily welded in the annealed condition with correct procedure, but welding in the case hardened or through hardened condition is not recommended.

http://www.smorgonsteel.com.au/metalsdi ... GroupID=18


I didn't know the toyota front axles were properly waisted. From what I have seen the rears arent.

[F'n_Rover]

i dont know if any one is interested in this, but as its so quite i'll post an update.

the toy axles i have are case hardend- 57 rockwell - too hard to machine (hobbed ) without grinding through the hardening. This was from a large gear cutting business. (they also said just make new ones)

Case depth is as yet unknown. the two diff specialists i spoke to quoted around $120 each to respline. i dont know how they cut them, maby grind??

to make new shafts -
4340 - $3.00 per kilo comes in 33mm diam rod
en26a - $3.50 per kilo
from bohler uddenholm (spelling) ex stock
spline hobbing at big company - $20-$30 per end $190~ minimum charge
heat treating - through hardening -$45 per shaft (hills in bayswater)
works out to around $125 per shaft for a batch of eight. excluding base machining and polishing which i can do.

spoke to mac about axle flange spacers- he had no problems with the idea and quoted around $200.00 to make two. i"ll go see an engineer
soon and get his thoughts. But with this option i will need rear spacers and still need rear custom shafts.


a few questions -
would resplined axles, that is - resplined on the unhardend base metal be stong enough for locked 33's ?

are any of the newer toy cv's 30 spline ? ( not longs but factory ). Its cheaper and easier to make shafts 30sp both ends.

if i do make them i was thinking of using two shaft clamps to locate the axle instead of c clips. Any thoughts?

[Bush65]

A shop that heat treats steel can anneal your stock shafts so that the splines can be machined. After machining get them to harden and temper them.

EN26 is superior to 4340 for axles - a little better tensile strength and better impact energy.

Bohler is a world leading steel maker.

I would be very interested in knowing the name of the big company that you contacted for spline hobbing - I have a few small and large splines to get cut. PM me if you like.

If you were to make custom axles, why not make them a length that doesn't need spacers?

Instead of inner c-clips, you can use a martack.

[F'n_Rover]

thanks for that.
no secret with the splining mob - hardman bros braeside sorry don't know the number. Just dropped in as they are local. These guys aparantly do top notch work but are considered pricey. Not the sort of place where cash gets a better deal.

i am looking at the spacer idea because then stock toy axels will fit. cheap and easy to get. but i'm still stuffed with the rear.
spacers = stock toy axles

looking at the longfield site, 4340 toy shafts $115.00 each US.
through hardened, case hardened and cryoed.

anyone going to the states soon? Hope he starts doing stuff for rovers.

[ISUZUROVER]

$1000 for 8 axles is a really good price if you can get it done for that.

I would also be interested in the name of the spline hobbing company.

I am not aware of any stock CV's that have a 30 spline star, except for (possibly) 80 and 100 series cruiser CV's, but they are much bigger and probably won't fit in the swivel housing.

[ISUZUROVER]

i am looking at the spacer idea because then stock toy axels will fit. cheap and easy to get. but i'm still stuffed with the rear.
spacers = stock toy axles

looking at the longfield site, 4340 toy shafts $115.00 each US.
through hardened, case hardened and cryoed.

anyone going to the states soon? Hope he starts doing stuff for rovers.

Sorry I just got back from the US (bought some longfields)..

One other option would be to talk to Keith from Rovertracks (in the US). He sells Moser axles made for rovers (and has kits to fit toy CV's into rovers). His axles are 1541H which IMO is not as good as 4340etc, but I think they work out at similar proces to the Longfield axles. He is a pretty good bloke to deal with, and you may be able to get 4 custom length moser axles shipped to you for a pretty good price.

If you go with the stock axle route, for the rear, what about machining down and resplining some semi-float toy rear axles? Or is that not possible?

[Bush65]

$1000 for 8 axles is a really good price if you can get it done for that.

I would also be interested in the name of the spline hobbing company.

I am not aware of any stock CV's that have a 30 spline star, except for (possibly) 80 and 100 series cruiser CV's, but they are much bigger and probably won't fit in the swivel housing.

The 105 series stuff that I have lying about, is 1.25" od 24 spline.

[F'n_Rover]

john, ive just been surfing old posts. Dont know how i missed this one before

[/url]http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33942&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30[url]

page 4 you wrote :

daddylonglegs wrote:
Very interesting tech Bush65 and Red 90. If either of you were commisioned to design an optimum replacement rear 24 spline axle for a Rover without using prohibitively expensive exotic alloys, anything up to Hytuf would be permissable, How would you design and heat treat it ?
Bill.

Material: Hytuff

Design: Not much to design because of the constraints (splines at both ends and the length are fixed). Just pay attention to reducing the stress raisers to improve fatigue life - run the splines beyond where the side gear and flange fit and a large radius at the change in section. Neck the axle down between the splines to improve the resiliance.

Heat treatment: From my data sheets. Heat to 870 deg C and hold until uniform and quench in oil. While still warm from hardening, temper at 250 to 300 deg C for 2 hours.

-----------------------------------------

i was under the impression that necking down hy-tuf was a no no due to its longitudal silicon strings been cut and thus loosing strength.

thinking about it now the concept does sound stupid.
any thoughts?

thanks

[ISUZUROVER]

i was under the impression that necking down hy-tuf was a no no due to its longitudal silicon strings been cut and thus loosing strength.

thinking about it now the concept does sound stupid.
any thoughts?

I posted about this on pirate - it seems the origins of this info are a book by Carrol called "engineer to win". Everyone who posted said that it is crap, and 300M (4340M) has a higher silicon content than HYTUFF. Maxi-Drive axles are necked down, as are many others made from HYTUFF.

[Bush65]

Hytuff is used for lots of parts besides axles (components for jack hammers for example). It is normal practice to make these parts with shoulders etc.

I have never seen any advice from steel makers or the like about precautions/restrictions concerning these so called silicon strings.

To see the crystaline structure, the surface has to be specially prepared and viewed with a high magnification microscope. I haven't seen the structure of hytuff, but I would be very surprised if the silicon strings are very long relative to the proportions of reasonable fillet radii used where a shaft is necked.

[ISUZUROVER]

To see the crystaline structure, the surface has to be specially prepared and viewed with a high magnification microscope. I haven't seen the structure of hytuff, but I would be very surprised if the silicon strings are very long relative to the proportions of reasonable fillet radii used where a shaft is necked.

If anyone is really interested and wants to send me a sample of HYTUFF, I can get some SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) images taken of it - and then we can see the "silicon strings" for ourselves (or at least see the grain structure.

[F'n_Rover]

Ben you have way too much spare time. This coupled with access to expensive machinery is a pretty cool thing!

this below was ripped from the pirate axle tech section
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... dex1a.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE HIGH SILICON, NICKEL CHROME STEELS
These are usually known by trade names such as Hi-Tuff and Stress Proof. They contain up to about 3 % silicon and are, as the names suggest, tough as hell. They are popular for stock car and off-road racing axles—and the alloys are very suitable for these applications. They are not as good as 4340 M or even 4340, but they are also a damned sight cheaper and, especially where the minimum weights imposed are high, the fact that a part with the same strength and fatigue resistance can be made lighter by using a better steel may be a lot less significant than the cost difference. However, these steels are tough only because of the high silicon content, which is mainly in the form of longitudinal fibers or strings of silicon. This limits the efficient (and safe) use of the alloys to parts with minimal section changes and virtually no transverse machining (we don't want to cut the longitudinal strings that make the stuff tough to start with, do we?). They also don't like being bent very much because that may rupture the silicon strings. Mind you, I have made a lot of street car antiroll bars from Stress Proof with excellent results and pretty severe bends—but in this case the bends are almost, by definition, in lightly stressed areas.[7]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm sure the bloke who wrote this would like to see the pictures.

BTW - why to different axle manufactures use vastly different materials?
ie - en25 versus 4340 versus hy-tuf surely there must be a clear advantage over one than the others. The steel cost cant be the reason as they are all fairly cheap, a few bucks here or there. ?????????

[ISUZUROVER]

Ben you have way too much spare time. This coupled with access to expensive machinery is a pretty cool thing!

this below was ripped from the pirate axle tech section
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... dex1a.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE HIGH SILICON, NICKEL CHROME STEELS
These are usually known by trade names such as Hi-Tuff and Stress Proof. They contain up to about 3 % silicon and are, as the names suggest, tough as hell. They are popular for stock car and off-road racing axles—and the alloys are very suitable for these applications. They are not as good as 4340 M or even 4340, but they are also a damned sight cheaper and, especially where the minimum weights imposed are high, the fact that a part with the same strength and fatigue resistance can be made lighter by using a better steel may be a lot less significant than the cost difference. However, these steels are tough only because of the high silicon content, which is mainly in the form of longitudinal fibers or strings of silicon. This limits the efficient (and safe) use of the alloys to parts with minimal section changes and virtually no transverse machining (we don't want to cut the longitudinal strings that make the stuff tough to start with, do we?). They also don't like being bent very much because that may rupture the silicon strings. Mind you, I have made a lot of street car antiroll bars from Stress Proof with excellent results and pretty severe bends—but in this case the bends are almost, by definition, in lightly stressed areas.[7]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm sure the bloke who wrote this would like to see the pictures.

BTW - why to different axle manufactures use vastly different materials?
ie - en25 versus 4340 versus hy-tuf surely there must be a clear advantage over one than the others. The steel cost cant be the reason as they are all fairly cheap, a few bucks here or there. ?????????

The bloke who wrote it was Carrol Smith, the source of all this misinformation... (note the reference [7] at the bottom of your quote). Also, the book was written 20 years ago.

[7] "Engineer to Win". Carroll Smith; Motorbooks International, 1985 p.63

I wish I had more spare time, I never seem to have enough... just interested in this, and all I would have to do is prepare the sample, there is someone else who operates the SEM/TEM for me.

I read on a machinist's forum that HYTUFF is difficult to machine (even in the annealed state), and tends to stick to the lathe tools if not machined with the right setup. This may be a reason it isn't more widely used.

[derangedrover]

Ben,

Ive got some maxi rear axles doing nothing if you want a piece.
They are 28 spl for post 94, ie narrow hubs, so not very desirable and not likely to get used in a hurry.

Cheers
Daryl

[ISUZUROVER]

Ben,

Ive got some maxi rear axles doing nothing if you want a piece.
They are 28 spl for post 94, ie narrow hubs, so not very desirable and not likely to get used in a hurry.

Cheers
Daryl

You sure you want to cut up a good MD axle? Probably the best bit to send to me would be one splined end and about 10mm of plain shaft past the splines.

Are you sure they are HY-TUFF and not EN25 (mal's old axles were EN25).

If you are serious then send me a PM and I will PM you my address.

[F'n_Rover]

jeez- cutting up a good maxi axle in the name of science is a bit full on.
You could get a few bucks for them on the AULRO forum.

if it's in stock i can get an offcut (maby) of v136 (bohlers hytuff) pretty easy, but it will be in the normalised / annealed state.

[ISUZUROVER]

jeez- cutting up a good maxi axle in the name of science is a bit full on.
You could get a few bucks for them on the AULRO forum.

if it's in stock i can get an offcut (maby) of v136 (bohlers hytuff) pretty easy, but it will be in the normalised / annealed state.

The grain structure of normalised hytuff is probably fairly different to the structure of hardened and tempered hytuff. But I don't know how this would affect the silicon strings. John??? (also - any ideas on sample preparation for SEM?).

It would be an interesting comparison to image both samples though.

[rick130]

i'm sure the bloke who wrote this would like to see the pictures

and he'd probably be the first to admit he was wrong. He used to update info and admit "I was wrong about..." in subsequent books and various articles in the two industry tech magazines, Racetech and Racecar Engineering. He was still an adviser to Ferrari up to two years ago.

Unfortunately he's now dead.

[Bush65]

Ben,

It would make sense to examine a hardened and tempered sample. I don't know how the Silicon changes during heat treatment.