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Slotted Bushes
Moderator: Micka
Slotted Bushes
Hi guys, anyone know if Sam's got any wide slotted bushes for the front radius arm's yet, and how much they are? Also while on the topic of suspension, has anyone got any expereince on using what i think you would call a 5-link set up for the front suspension where 2 arms replace each radius arm? Does this give better road handling over a 3-link, or are there any other advantages? I want more flex, but also want a pretty strong set up so it can take the punishment of something like the OBC. Don't know how a three link would take that punishment?
Thanks
Thanks
If you are following the reports in the competition forum, the OBC is getting harder and lots of breakages are occuring.
High speeds are also involved, so you dont want the suspension to fail at those times.
I don't see why a 3 link can't be engineered as strong as a 5 link.
With a link front suspension, the upper link (or links) are loaded in tension and the lower links are loaded in compression. The lowers have to take the highest loads.
The safarigard 3 link arrangement makes for a simple bolt on system. The disadvantage is that the single lower link has to handle high loads compared the the 2 upper links.
Most 3 link fronts use a single upper and 2 lowers. The problem is that the upper has to be offset to clear the engine sump. But that is not a big issue. Offsetting the upper can be an advantage in counteracting the torque during acceleration, if done correctly.
The loads in the 2 lower links of a 3 link will be similar to those in the 2 lowers of a 5 link, if both have similar geometry.
5 links need to have the upper and lower links parallel so you loose your anti-dive under hard braking. 5 links don't flex as well as 3 links.
High speeds are also involved, so you dont want the suspension to fail at those times.
I don't see why a 3 link can't be engineered as strong as a 5 link.
With a link front suspension, the upper link (or links) are loaded in tension and the lower links are loaded in compression. The lowers have to take the highest loads.
The safarigard 3 link arrangement makes for a simple bolt on system. The disadvantage is that the single lower link has to handle high loads compared the the 2 upper links.
Most 3 link fronts use a single upper and 2 lowers. The problem is that the upper has to be offset to clear the engine sump. But that is not a big issue. Offsetting the upper can be an advantage in counteracting the torque during acceleration, if done correctly.
The loads in the 2 lower links of a 3 link will be similar to those in the 2 lowers of a 5 link, if both have similar geometry.
5 links need to have the upper and lower links parallel so you loose your anti-dive under hard braking. 5 links don't flex as well as 3 links.
John
Thanks Bush65. I just thought that a 5-link did away with all the bad road handling characteristics, but maybe im wrong. Any suggestions on where to go for a 3-link apart from the obvious $afari Guard. And anyone know about the situation with slotted bushes? Emailed Sam a week or two back, but no reply, 
probably a bit busy.
probably a bit busy.
Thanks Tony
Yeah ive seen the kit, but its 2 arms are above its centre arm which i wouldn't want if its stronger to have them below. It also looks like its track rod protector drops down quite a long way below the axle casing reducing ground clearance. I really want to try and keep road handling, but other than some of sam's bushes i don't think i have many other options? A 3-link is very tempting! Just want opinions from people with them and where to get them?
Yeah ive seen the kit, but its 2 arms are above its centre arm which i wouldn't want if its stronger to have them below. It also looks like its track rod protector drops down quite a long way below the axle casing reducing ground clearance. I really want to try and keep road handling, but other than some of sam's bushes i don't think i have many other options? A 3-link is very tempting! Just want opinions from people with them and where to get them?
This really depends on what you want to use the car most for. Good articulation & on-road handling are hard to achieve.
As for the 3 link, have a look at the engineering discussion at
http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off ... ff_result/
There no way I'd feed those loads into the 3rd link, and expect it to be reliable. Maybe other designs are better.
As noted, the standard setup acts as something of an anti-roll bar. Free up the front end, and handling/steering response drops off. This includes Sam's holey bushes. The front just kneels on the outside wheel, increasing understeer.
My solution for a bullet proof front end, with better articulation while retaining drivability was to
- use Sam's bushes
- fit Toyota 80 series shocks (You'll need to lift the top mount or pack the bump stop, how much depends on shock brand)
- fit MJ Lee twin shock towers, to mimic the "hard front soft rear" of front engined race cars.
The shocks prevent that lurch into corners. Steering response is quite good. Off road, in really slow stuff, it works well. Disadvantages are ride is a bit pitchy - ok in a 110, but I wouldn't do it in a 90. And offroad, it can lift front wheels if any momentum is needed.
The bushes seem to last about 12 months, and corrugations I'm sure shorten their life.
But hey, everything is a compromise
Regards
Max P
As for the 3 link, have a look at the engineering discussion at
http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off ... ff_result/
There no way I'd feed those loads into the 3rd link, and expect it to be reliable. Maybe other designs are better.
As noted, the standard setup acts as something of an anti-roll bar. Free up the front end, and handling/steering response drops off. This includes Sam's holey bushes. The front just kneels on the outside wheel, increasing understeer.
My solution for a bullet proof front end, with better articulation while retaining drivability was to
- use Sam's bushes
- fit Toyota 80 series shocks (You'll need to lift the top mount or pack the bump stop, how much depends on shock brand)
- fit MJ Lee twin shock towers, to mimic the "hard front soft rear" of front engined race cars.
The shocks prevent that lurch into corners. Steering response is quite good. Off road, in really slow stuff, it works well. Disadvantages are ride is a bit pitchy - ok in a 110, but I wouldn't do it in a 90. And offroad, it can lift front wheels if any momentum is needed.
The bushes seem to last about 12 months, and corrugations I'm sure shorten their life.
But hey, everything is a compromise
Regards
Max P
Stereo by Simex!
From memory, the link that Max posted, refers to the prototype of the safarigard 3 link. The prototype that failed, had the single lower link mounted to the mid point of a stock gearbox cross member.
The stock cross member is not suitable for those loads (but it is suitable for an offset single upper link). All safarigard 3 links sold to the public, have a very beefy cross member, and no other failures (apart from the prototype) have occurred.
IMHO, the only advantage of using a single lower, is that it permits a bolt on kit.
2 lowers and an offset upper link is the best way to go for a 3 link. The 2 lowers share and distribute the compressive loads, just as the stock arms.
If the upper link is angled down from the axle housing to the chassis/cross member, it is best located to the right of centre (to counter acceleration torque). Then it could be mounted near the top of the diff housing and run between the front drive shaft and the engine sump.
If you look at the photos (in members forum) of the lockless that Tony drove in top truck, you can see that they ran the upper link between the front drive shaft and the chassis rail. If Tony reads this he might like to give his impression if it was driven on road. Personally, I would prefer it to be on the other side of the drive shaft for better balanced handling.
The stock cross member is not suitable for those loads (but it is suitable for an offset single upper link). All safarigard 3 links sold to the public, have a very beefy cross member, and no other failures (apart from the prototype) have occurred.
IMHO, the only advantage of using a single lower, is that it permits a bolt on kit.
2 lowers and an offset upper link is the best way to go for a 3 link. The 2 lowers share and distribute the compressive loads, just as the stock arms.
If the upper link is angled down from the axle housing to the chassis/cross member, it is best located to the right of centre (to counter acceleration torque). Then it could be mounted near the top of the diff housing and run between the front drive shaft and the engine sump.
If you look at the photos (in members forum) of the lockless that Tony drove in top truck, you can see that they ran the upper link between the front drive shaft and the chassis rail. If Tony reads this he might like to give his impression if it was driven on road. Personally, I would prefer it to be on the other side of the drive shaft for better balanced handling.
John
Thanks guys, great help. Bush 65 where about do i have to look for Tony's truck. I can't seem to find it as i don't really know where to look apart from just scrolling through the members forum? And i don't know what to look for? Does it belong to someone called Tony? Is his user names Lockless? Any advice? Thanks
Tony is RUFF,
and the truck Lockless is the orange defender
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=40226
And there is also his buggy the Budgie
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... ght=budgie
and the truck Lockless is the orange defender
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=40226
And there is also his buggy the Budgie
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... ght=budgie
Cheers
Slunnie
Discovery TD5, Landy IIa V8 ute.
Slunnie
Discovery TD5, Landy IIa V8 ute.
Thanks for all the help guys. Think i'll stick to a standard front end for now and then get someone to fabricate up a 3 link like the lockless in the future. Might be moving out to OZ so i'll see what happens, maybe get someone out there to do it.
Does the lockless run conventional springs? Just can't see any. Was wondering if it used a dislocation system with them to get so much travel. I don't like the idea of having springs with dislocation cones, I prefer them to be secured for stability. Any opinions?
P.S. Anywhere i can see what stuff Haultech do, such as beadlocks etc?
Thanks again.
Does the lockless run conventional springs? Just can't see any. Was wondering if it used a dislocation system with them to get so much travel. I don't like the idea of having springs with dislocation cones, I prefer them to be secured for stability. Any opinions?
P.S. Anywhere i can see what stuff Haultech do, such as beadlocks etc?
Thanks again.
The Lockless Defender runs Foxshocks, which is a shock and air spring all in the one unit. You can see them in these pics.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... 783#505783
and the product:
http://www.abt4x4.com/index.php?PCID=26 ... imary&CDO=
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... 783#505783
and the product:
http://www.abt4x4.com/index.php?PCID=26 ... imary&CDO=
Cheers
Slunnie
Discovery TD5, Landy IIa V8 ute.
Slunnie
Discovery TD5, Landy IIa V8 ute.
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