front spring rate

[swamp]

I picked my front wheel up between the forks on a forklift.
lifted it up untill the rear came off the ground, measured this.
Pulled a rear shock off ,lifted till rear came off the ground, measured this.
My question is, the front lifted side was still 100mm off the bumpstop when the rear wheel was 200mm off the ground, does this mean my front spring rate is too high, for good artic balance.

Michael.

[swamp]

c'mon someone must have an opinion,
and replying to my own post may get some more intrest.

[GRIMACE]

try pickin up the rear wheel with the forklift
pickin up the front will transfer more weigh to the rear causeing the rear to work better
Picking up the rear will transfer more weight to the front causin it to work better.

You should always test flex at all corners

[Slunnie]

There are heaps of factors and Grimace has some good ones, but how much lift do you have? It sounds like a fair bit. Sway bars will restrict it, the design of the front suspension will only flex so far also due to bind anyway, and your spring rates will impact on it also. You may also find that the front articulates more on flat crossups where there is no weight transfer. Has the spring got to support a bar, winch, duel batts etc which soft springs wont maintain ride height with? What is the rate on the spring?

[Philip A]

Swamp, I didn't want to respond because its amazing the abuse and flaming that goes on about suspension even about such basic things such as the bumpstop is the limit of upward travel and the shock length is the limit of downward travel!!!. Also you haven't told us ANYTHING about your setup. AND do you really mean 100MM!!!!
a Shock length?
b height from bumpstop?
c stab bar?
d model? classic ? 38A?, Disco?

If you have 100MM at the bumpstop with the wheel under a fork, you must have much more at rest and bloody stiff springs.
The total travel with a standard length shock is 11 inches.(280MM?)
You must have 150MM at least over the bumpstop and to have that you must have extensive mods or the thing would not go in straight line.

My first reaction is YES your springs are much too heavy, but AFAIK no one makes long soft springs, and they would be very unstable at that height.
If you do not know the rate, tell us the number of turns and the diameter of the wire and we will guess.
I do not have personal experience in heavily modified suspensions ( ie with longer shocks, greatly lifted springs), but there are guys here that do.
Regards Philip A

[GRIMACE]

c'mon someone must have an opinion,
and replying to my own post may get some more intrest.

and sorry bout that I missed it the first time round

[HSV Rangie]

Hmmm

what is bump stop clearance at rest. Std or mod bump stops.

Front: --------mm
Rear: ---------mm

What shocks you running: Available Strke lth.
Shock mounts: Std location or modded.

Front radias arms: what bushes. both at axle and chassy.

what rate springs:
pounds per inch of compression
free lth: ---------mm
installed lth: --------mm

with out above info no one can give a good answer at best al will be a guess.

Michael.

[swamp]

Thanks for the reply's
It is a very touchy subject, with lots of two cents worth.
Anway
front bumpstop clearance 120mm
Rear 170mm

stock- bumpstops
shock location
bushes
ome RR shocks (supposedly for lifted springs)
sway bar free
rover v8
Front springs- orange 17.20" 180lb/in
2x batteries
bar 8000winch low mount
I may have overstated the measurement from the bump stop to the axle
as I was going off memory from over a year ago but it was at least
50-75mm.with the rear shock disconected and the rear spring dislocated
Armed with all this we may be able to come closer to calculated guess.
Cheers.
rear- green white17.80" 270lb/in

[Philip A]

Well, looking at the specs it is not too outrageous.
If you want the front so high I guess you have little choice as there are no 160LB springs available that long . The orange springs are rear springs .

Your rear springs are really heavy for the spec you have advised ie the heaviest,longest springs that LRA do. Do you load it up with bricks. OME even!!! do not make any springs that long or heavy!!

I am amazed you do not have big probs with driveline vibration and wandering. unless you have caster correction and a front CV driveshaft which we didn't ask.
Being an old fart I would not have more than green (16.1 160lb)front and orange ( 180 lb 17.2) rear but that is a lot lower than you have., with about 80MM to front stops and 100-110 at the rear on a four door.
Regards Philip A

[HSV Rangie]

swamp,

sounds much the same as mine.

I run those springs.

I think the 270s are to stiff .
220's are almost pefect but you loose so much clearance when carring a load.

Front on mine is great.
just the rear is a PIA but almosr there.

Michael.

[swamp]

I have had the swivels rotated back to spec.
When the front is set up correctly balance, alignment, bearing loads you can take hands off the wheel @150 kph and it tracks straight, if only my
alter ego would stop thrashing in the bush it would stay that way.
I used to run LRA purples but found them to light
spare wheel 60kg
toolbox 20kg
hilift15kg
trolley jack 15kg
fridge + beer 50kg
plus all the other stuff it adds up quickly.
If anyone has access to a forklift it would be interesting to see others results . As I thought the ideal setup would be that the front axle hits the bumpstop at about the same as the rear wheel leaves the ground.

[Philip A]

Just a thought swamp, You would get the same body height with say a two inch body lift with lower softer springs.

Your panhard rod would be more level which would reduce corkscrewing in corners, and the ride would be far superior. The designed arcs of the suspension would be better,and your unis would have an easier time. Your articulation would be better and I believe you would have a better RTI.
If you look at the OME specs they say "constant 300KG load" for their 360 LB by 16.5"
I don't think any expert such as Les Richmond would really recommend your setup, although he does make the springs.
Regards Philip A

[swamp]

Got the body lift,
When I had the 220 lb/in in the back while climbing a steep hill when the weight transfers to the rear, the rear would bounce and that bouncing would start the front bouncing as it was so lightly loaded. I also used to drag my rear bar through everything, although the 270 lb/in aren't perfect they solved these issues.
For all the talk about articulation, I beleive that for the type of tracks that
I drive stock or a little bit better than stock RR is plenty.The two areas that cause me greif are under diff clearance,and sometimes rear overhang, before you ask 4.6,f+r maxis,9/34 swampers.
I must measure the length of the front shock when the front wheel is up enough to cause the back to lift in order to see if there is enough for bumpstop compression.(I don't know if I understand that last sentence myself)
HSV's holden v8 would weigh how much more than a rvr v8

[HSV Rangie]

about 40 KG more

Michael.

[Team Raider]

Well, looking at the specs it is not too outrageous.
If you want the front so high I guess you have little choice as there are no 160LB springs available that long . The orange springs are rear springs .

Your rear springs are really heavy for the spec you have advised ie the heaviest,longest springs that LRA do. Do you load it up with bricks. OME even!!! do not make any springs that long or heavy!!
<snip>
Being an old fart I would not have more than green (16.1 160lb)front and orange ( 180 lb 17.2) rear but that is a lot lower than you have., with about 80MM to front stops and 100-110 at the rear on a four door.
Regards Philip A

Awe damn, so my spring rates way too high then???

Front 292Lb
Rear 360Lb

Defender Extreme 110....

And I have pics to prove she flexes like MAD

[rick130]

Front 292Lb
Rear 360Lb

292 in the front !!
Are ye sure ???

Stock 'fender rate is 225lb/in, and I'm running 220lb/in Rangie Spares 'purple' (17" free length) with the konis (82-2385) wound up full in rebound, and most people think this is too stiff in ride !!

We wont talk about the rear as its a 130 work truck, and most on here just wont believe how stiff these fawkers are in the rear (pssst, try 330lb/in + 140lb/in inners = 470lb/in)

[Team Raider]

Yep!!! Positive!

Rides awesome, flexes great....
I'll see if I can find the flex shot and post it up....

Vehicle is firm but perfectly balanced IMHO and doesnt bottom the front end like it did with the 220Lbs in.

Was initially *really* concerned that it wouldnt flex but hit some Toolangi tracks and what do ya' know! She flexed straight to the bump stop!

Was an awesome sight and the guys I was with were pleasantly suprised too.

[rick130]

Code: Select all

and doesnt bottom the front end like it did with the 220Lbs in. 

and that happens far more than I had imagined. I've got the creases in a Z9 length oil filter to prove it ! (Donaldson P169071 with Synteq media)
Compressed the OE bump stops 20mm to do it.

Gone back to the OE filter (ERR3340) as a consequence.

[cloughy]

Code: Select all

and doesnt bottom the front end like it did with the 220Lbs in. 

and that happens far more than I had imagined. I've got the creases in a Z9 length oil filter to prove it ! (Donaldson P169071 with Synteq media)
Compressed the OE bump stops 20mm to do it.

Gone back to the OE filter (ERR3340) as a consequence.

Just incase you were interested the shorter ryco Z9 is labelled Z89A

[Philip A]

I have always wondered about why 110s have such stiffer springs. All I can assume is because LR configures them on the assumption they will be used off road more and will carry bigger loads. 110 with nivomat used to have much lighter springs.
The tare on a 110 is 1977KG vs Rangerover 1865? not exact., so there is a 100KG+ difference. A lot of this will be on the front , caused by the iron TD5 sitting there.
Diesel Discos have a 160 Lb spring instead of a 133Lb with petrol., so 220 lb is not outrageous.

I guess ride quality is a subjective thing , but I would doubt that a car with 290lb springs would ride well in the car makers definition, when the speed of reaction to bumps is measured. The important thing is that you are happy.
I was only talking about Range Rovers/ Discos as this is all I am experienced with.
Your flex will alter with load. If you had a Big load in it will flex fine, but maybe not as good if lightly loaded..
Regards Philip A

[rick130]

Just incase you were interested the shorter ryco Z9 is labelled Z89A

thanks cloughy, I used to use a Z89A when I bought the truck, but I was after a filter with more media area, better filtration and better flow.
The Ryco is well built, however didn't excell in the areas I was looking at, the Donaldson does, and I can buy a Land Rover filter cheaper than a Ryco !

Philip, with my rig you have the weight of the Tdi, steel bullbar, winch(wire cable), sidebars and steps, sill tank.......it all adds up.
I bottom out cornering hard and hitting bumps on the road. With the OE springs, the pads on the axle housing were constantly polished.....

maybe It's just the way I drive ....

[Philip A]

If that is the case you had better watch that you do not bend the front axle.AFAIK they are the same a s a Rangie and I believe you would exceed the max axle loading. If you start having leaking seals for no apparent reason , that will be it.

Why not try a Purolater filter. Autobahn can get them in an they are OK on price. I just started using one. They invented the cartridge oil filter and US tests put their construction and filter material at or near the top. I also think I am a bit paranoid and that Z89A are good, but I have never seen a test of them and they are made in Seth Efrica, a cost saving move in itself. What else do they cut costs on? I have found OE filter to have crap non return valve causing the oil pressure light to stay on much longer than with a Z89A.
Regards Philip A

.

[rick130]

Why not try a Purolater filter. Autobahn can get them in an they are OK on price. I just started using one. They invented the cartridge oil filter and US tests put their construction and filter material at or near the top. I also think I am a bit paranoid and that Z89A are good, but I have never seen a test of them and they are made in Seth Efrica, a cost saving move in itself. What else do they cut costs on? I have found OE filter to have crap non return valve causing the oil pressure light to stay on much longer than with a Z89A.

ahh, a Purolator L25195, media area of 312 sq. in. Beta 2 = 25 microns, Beta 20=40 microns, capacity 9.52 grams, by pass valve 14-16 psi.

Does it have a country of origin on the filter or box ? I have a pretty strong suspicion Purolator dont make that filter. It took them a long time for engineering in the US to get me those specs. Most US manufacturers usually substitute a close Chrysler (Wix 51068) or Ford (Baldwin B 74, Fleetguard LF3353) equivalent filter, wheras that Purolator number is a stand alone number.
Turns out most manufacturers only make a certain percentage of their own stuff, the balance they source from the opposition.

FWIW, Ryco ceased prroduction in Oz back in March. Filters are either made at their plants in South Africa or Enn Zed or sourced elsewhere.
The Z89A and Z9 used to use the same media, beta 2=30, or thereabouts.

No full flow filter filters brilliantly, it seems it's a juggle of flow vs filtration.

The best filter I found was a Mann-Hummel made especially as a Land Rover replacement, pt. # W 930/20, (made in Germany) Beta 2=18 microns, media area 2287cm2, (355 sq. in) flow rate 27l/min, capacity 21 grams, by pass valve 1 bar/14.5 psi, and no one imports them into Oz...

If anyone is interested, I have a fair few filter specs that are supposedly equivalent to an ERR3340, funny thing is most don't cross reference with each other. One of the guys at Donaldson warned me of that.

I've also had a lot of filters with faulty anti-drain back valves, including Donaldsons, Sakuras, Wix, and Purolators. Doesn't matter too much in the Tdi as the oil filter is vertical and is always full.

[rick130]

If that is the case you had better watch that you do not bend the front axle.AFAIK they are the same a s a Rangie and I believe you would exceed the max axle loading. If you start having leaking seals for no apparent reason , that will be it.

already sporting 1 degree of negative camber. Came like it when I bought the beast.

[ISUZUROVER]

The best filter I found was a Mann-Hummel made especially as a Land Rover replacement, pt. # W 930/20, (made in Germany) Beta 2=18 microns, media area 2287cm2, (355 sq. in) flow rate 27l/min, capacity 21 grams, by pass valve 1 bar/14.5 psi, and no one imports them into Oz...

Rick, if there is enough interest in this filter in OZ I may be able to get M+H to start selling it there, or at the very least, if you want to order a batch in bulk (shipped from Germany) I would be able to arrange that too.

[rick130]

Hi Ben, I originally went through Mann-Hummel in Oz who put me onto their distributor in Brisbane who wanted to palm me off to a dealer who in the finish had never stocked Mann, then back to the distributor who really didn't want to order any from Germany anyway as there had been no requests for them in the past !
Recently contacted a crowd in Perth who pretty much said the same thing. Never stocked it, didn't want to start.

I suppose it isn't really a commercial proposition for them, most Landy owners are happy with a Z89A or cheaper equivalent, and their engines last a long time.

Of course, if you can convince Mann-Hummel otherwise.....

cheers.

[Philip A]

Thanks Rick for the info on filters. Its nice to find someone even more obsessive than me!!
Regards Philip A

[lowbox]

I thought the ideal setup would be that the front axle hits the bumpstop at about the same as the rear wheel leaves the ground.

I think you need a bit heavier in the front - when you drive into things the front does most of the work.

[ISUZUROVER]

Hi Ben, I originally went through Mann-Hummel in Oz who put me onto their distributor in Brisbane who wanted to palm me off to a dealer who in the finish had never stocked Mann, then back to the distributor who really didn't want to order any from Germany anyway as there had been no requests for them in the past !
Recently contacted a crowd in Perth who pretty much said the same thing. Never stocked it, didn't want to start.

I suppose it isn't really a commercial proposition for them, most Landy owners are happy with a Z89A or cheaper equivalent, and their engines last a long time.

Of course, if you can convince Mann-Hummel otherwise.....

cheers.

Rick, just saw your reply, and have contacted M+H. Expect something to happen soon. Will let you know.

[rick130]

thanks Ben !