12V Fridge

[gu4800]

Ok, not 4x4 tech, but still "tech" all the same. I was going to post in General Cit-chat, but I figured I might get some replies I didn't really want (or need).

Anyway, my question is about 12V Fridges. I was looking at getting one a while back, but settled on another (second) Evacool instead. The reason is, a couldn't get my head around how to run it effectively. So for those who run fridges, some questions:

What size battery do run them off, and how long do you get without charging (looking at the 40L Engel)?

I know about dual battery systems, generators, etc, but if you were to go away for, say, 3-4 days, how would you best manage the power consumption?

Any problems you have had (not with the fridge itself, more the effective running of them)?

Any other useful tips or info appreciated.

FINALLY - please no BS or crap answers to this, just good honest (and to the point) response - Waeco or Engel and why? I know Engel have a very good name, but has anyone run a Waeco fo ra few years and if so any drama's?

Thanks again.

[droopypete]

Have you thought about solar charging?
Peter.
ps, I have only owned an ARB fridge and I am very happy with it.

[gu4800]

Yeah, looked at solar briefly today. By briefly, I mean I started gathering the info on what a fridge will draw and how solar panel will charge. Then I posted this to get to get some other ideas.

So, if anyone has done solar successfully, then please let know. What does it involve - a second battery to run the fridge and a solar panel to charge the battery??

Open to ideas.

[toughnut]

Look a bit more closely at which fridge you want to buy. By this I mean which is more efficient. I have an Auto Fridge which has a saline solution that surounds the compartment as well as normal insulation. The saline is the same as an ice pack that you use for sports injuries etc. Turn the fridge on 24Hours before you leave and you only have to run it 2-3 hours a day to keep it cold. I don't run it off my car though as I bought it second hand and it came with a honda inverter generator.

[gu4800]

Found this:

The AUTOFRIDGE comprises a compressor driven system combined with the power-saving advantages of the eutectic refrigeration system - the 'eutectics' act as a cold storage compound for the refrigeration contents. The eutectic fluid surrounds the outside of the four walls of the interior cabinet acting as an 'ice bank', and, in an ambient temperature of up to 32 degrees Celsius, having initially pre-chilled the AUTOFRIDGE, it need only be run on its maximum setting for a total of 5-6 hours per day (preferably 2 hours in the morning and ~3 hours in the afternoon), and during this run-time, the fluid is frozen and the cabinet contents are thoroughly chilled. The AUTOFRIDGE can be turned OFF in between the run-times, and the eutectic fluid acts as a thermal phase change (cold storage) compound and provides the continuous refrigeration hold-over for NIL power consumption. Figures quoted assume normal usage of your refrigerator, e.g. opening/shutting the lid to use or replace contents.


However, these do cost a bit more - Waeco 40L (about $850), Engel 40L (about $1,150) and Auto Fridge ($1,800).

I was hoping to get out this for around $2,000 - fridge, power source and probably a generator.

I'm hoping someone can tell me how long they really get out of the second battery - I get different answers from the fridge sellers, the dual battery sellers, etc. I would like something from someone who actually uses a fridge in real situations - out camping for days at a time.

Keep the advice coming - appreciated.

Oh, and Barnsey - saw your Q's on that thread. That is what I am basically looking at. Second battery in my camper (camper already has one running the lights and water pump). The second batteryt to be used for fridge only, charged when the camper is in transit (the battery for the lights will last forever, so I just trickle charge it from 240V a couple of days before I leave on a trip). Just looking at how to keep the fridge battery charged enough when actually camping - and more importantly, how often I will need to "top it up" over a three day period.

[toughnut]

Yeah they are a bit exy new. I was able to score mine with the honda genny for $2000. That included the 240V - 12V transformer as well.

[grazza]

A mate setup a solar charger and he uses a 65W panel, I doubt the 4.5W panel on ebay will be enough.
I think the ARB/Engels pull just under 2Ax12V = 24W, so a panel would probably have to be double this at 48W. Note that you would still have to run off a battery and not run the fridge directly off the panel.
I think the Waeco uses more power.

I personally am thinking of the 3-way and power the fridge with gas when its not in the car. Can anyone tell me how much gas they get through? I was hoping to use the same gas for cooking.

[BundyRumandCoke]

One problem that hasnt been mentioned here, and the camper trailer build thread, is what happens when the trailer sits idle for a couple of months. You have a brand new battery, worth a couple of hundred, on the drawbar. Fine, it works when you are camping/travelling, keeps the fridge/lights/pump going nicely. But then, at the end of the trip, the camper sits, parked up, for 1,2,6 months. And when you go to use it again, dead battery. And possibly stuffed due to lack of use/maintenance. Another reason to go solar.
I am fortunate, I have 2 fridges (3 actually) a 3way, which has been modified to run much more efficently on 12V, and an Engel. I run the Engel if we are going away for the weekend only, or driving every day, and run the 3way if we are going to be camped in one spot for more than a few days. All three fridges were second hand, but the oldest has worked without a problem for over 10 years.

[dibbz]

I have a 40l Engel and I run a 90Ah deep cycle battery.

I don't have a fancy dual battery managment, just a relay to connect it to alternator when the voltage is 13 something.

It will run for 3 days before I need to charge the battery again. 30 minutes drive adds enough charge for at least a day, 20-30 minutes idle (800rpm on my 2H) is almost but not quite a days worth of charge. I have never had a problem with that, its not often that you do not drive for 3 days when camping.

So at a guess I'm using about 50Ah over 3 days.

I usually go camping for over a week and I will freeze a roast and put it at the bottom before I go, the fridge does not run that much at all for the first 3 or 4 days. I still get my meat cryovaced. I carry an esky for beers often, but short 2-3 day trips i use the fridge for beers.

I would go the solar panel if you are going to eat power.

[Drafty]

In relation to your which fridge question, we ran a 21L Waeko during the Outback Challenge and it didnt miss a beat and to mine and Birdy's amazement is still running today. Seems to be well put togethor and the internal light is a nice feature, only concern we had was the plastic construction but it held up well throughout the comp even after being caked in mud, hosed down, shaken the absolute bejesus out of in the gorge and on nav stages and copping sh!t loads of dust. I do have an engel but would now seriously consider a Waeco.

Dont ask me about power consumption, have no idea about that, just know it it still running.

[RoldIT]

This is a guide that may help.

I have a single, starting battery setup which uses a N70ZZL Century High Performance (Middle of the range model). I have run a late model Engel 40ltr from this for 12 hours a number of times without starting the car and still been able to start the Patrol diesel no prob. Most of the time, if staying in the one spot for a few days, I crank the car over for 10 mins, 3 times a day to top the battery up, so far no issue.

I am aware this is by no means the ideal setup but as the battery was in the vehicle when I bought it I have no idea of it's age or use so if I kill it, it gives me an excuse to get the dual battery setup sorted out.

[droopypete]

Drafty, thats what I call giving your sponsers exposure
well done,
a lot of people play the sponsership game, take the money or product, wack a sticker on the truck and think that is it,
you guys took the time to clean off the sticker, pop on the cap and take a photo of the sponsers product doing the job,
I am sure Mr Waeco would be pleased that 4x4 enthusiasts all over the world saw a great pic of his fridge on the net
Peter.

[Drafty]

Drafty, thats what I call giving your sponsers exposure
well done,
a lot of people play the sponsership game, take the money or product, wack a sticker on the truck and think that is it,
you guys took the time to clean off the sticker, pop on the cap and take a photo of the sponsers product doing the job,
I am sure Mr Waeco would be pleased that 4x4 enthusiasts all over the world saw a great pic of his fridge on the net
Peter.

You have to look after your sponsors, they are hard to find. Mind you if their product was Sh!t i would say so, sponsor or not.

[rlaxton]

A mate setup a solar charger and he uses a 65W panel, I doubt the 4.5W panel on ebay will be enough.
I think the ARB/Engels pull just under 2Ax12V = 24W, so a panel would probably have to be double this at 48W. Note that you would still have to run off a battery and not run the fridge directly off the panel.
I think the Waeco uses more power.

How do you figure that a panel would have to double the peak power usage of the fridge? In actual fact you could probably get away with *less* panel power than the fridge because the compressor does not run continuously. Another thing is that you are only using the panel to extend the runtime that you would get from just the battery.

[gu4800]

Oh Barnsey, poor Barnsey.

WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

I have ummed and arred over this for over a year now. Everytime, I come back to the "it's all too hard" basket. Problem is, hepas of people run a fridge out cmaping with no problems. BUt, do they have to drive everyday to keep the charge up?, Etc etc etc etc.

I like simple things - simple to set-up, simple to use and simple to maintain. The dual battery idea is looking more and more promising, but then I go have a GU 4.8 Patrol, making it near impossible to fit a decent second battery under the hood.

I guess I'm down to the following:
a) dual battery in the 4x4, with the fridge living in the car
b) good quality deep cycle in the camper, hooked to a battery charger with a generator used to top-up the battery a couple of hours a day
c) same as above, but a solar panel used to top-up

I guess most people go for the dual battery. It's neat and fairly much maintenance free.

Anybody fitted a dual battery under the hood in the GU 4.8?

[zooki]

OK this is what I have, it's cheap for what it does and it works with no BS

Fridge Waeco CF50 power draw 30a/hr per day (24hrs)
Battery Fullriver 120 ah AGM sealed battery mounted in a box with outlets on it and plug to plug into car for charging.

most important figure to remember with power is the amp hour rating of everything (ah/r) this is your usage figure, my fridge uses 30 a/hr's a day and I have 120 to use so I can sit for 4 days without charging.

All waecos up to the 80 litre are rated as using 30a/hr per day in 30* outside temperature, this would go up or down depending on the temp and how much you open it ets but is a good start.

The battery I use is an AGM battery, they are dearer ($300) but can be discharged fully 200 times and lose 50% capacity or disgarged to 50% 1000 times, do that to a normal deep cycle and it will be dead in no time, the AGM batteries also charge a lot faster (mine is as fast as my 50amp alternator can throw at it) a normal deep cycle won't charge much over 10 amps.
Agms also will fully charge from the voltage supplied by an alternator, normal batteries don't, they are also sealed and can be mounted sideways or upside down so are not a hazard inside to vehicle or tent.

to recharge if you need more time than oferred by your battery, an 80 watt solar panel will keep up with a waeco frideg, a 100 watt will give some extra to allow for draining the battery a bit on overcast days.
to work out a/hr of a panel you need the current it delivers (100w / 14v = 7 amps) plus the amount of time it will get full sun (6 hours approx for Brisbane more for further north less for south (5.5 x 7= 38a/hrs) so you can see that this set up would get you more power in than out (or you could run a 12v Fluro for a few hours a day) so you would never need to add any extra charge

but if you were say only looking at a week at a time just add more battery capacity so you have enough as its a lot cheaper than solar or generators.


have a look at this

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

it will tell you a lot about batteries

also google solar homes or solar charging, you will find lots of info about this sort of stuff.

[Tiny]

what i do no...

My mates 50ltr weaco, two repaires in 3 months from new + the plastice outer case can not be repaired

My 40ltr Engel 4yrs old no probs, got used contantly on 240v for 6 months when I moved and the fridge died and couldn't affford a new fridge for the house

mates 39ltr engal got sold to another mate 2 yrs ago, was 8 yrs old still working strong

Evecool....verry good inulation, know guys that turn em off all the time as they keep very cold as long as they aren't oppened

[dibbz]

my fridge uses 30 a/hr's a day and I have 120 to use so I can sit for 4 days without charging.

You do not have 120Ah useable in a 120Ah battery. Thats is explained in the FAQ you posted. You can drain it right down but you are only trashing the battery life.

My mates 50ltr weaco, two repaires in 3 months from new + the plastice outer case can not be repaired.

Waeco's danfoss compressors are awesome, and guaranteed to outlive the rest of the waeco fridge. Waeco's would be a lot better if they ditched the stupid control panel thing and got a simple analog dial like Engel (in my opinion).

Mate of mine has 1978 engel 30l fridge, uses 4A where my new 40l uses 2A, but it still goes strong. It has bounced to the cape at least 30 times.

I'm pretty sure that old Engel uses a danfoss as well... if this is the case does anybody know when Engel moved from Danfoss to Sawafigi ?

[fatassgq]

There are many different ways to set up a system that works for you but you have to make a decision as to what you want MOST from the set up and how much you are willing to spend.

A dual purpose (often called a marine style) battery will run a fridge for maybe a day depending on size and temps etc. While a dedicated deep cycle will do a better job of keeping the fridge going for a longer period without getting any charge. I am talking rock up to camp turn of car and leave it kind of thing.

What I found out after I spent a heap of $ is that while a deep cycle lasts longer it also takes a lot more to charge em from your alternator. What this means is that a quick drive will not put anywhere near as much charge back into the deep cycle as it does say a starting type battery. You can work out what this means quite easily. For day trips etc or weekends a dual purpose battery would be fine and cheaper. When you get home from a trip with a deep cycle you should really put it on a 3/4 stage charger to get the power back into it as the alternator will not do it so well for you.

I set my car up with solar panels etc and it costs heaps and if you got the space it is great. I can't see a wagon having enough space for the set up I have though.
Two 6volt batteries in series will give a great long lasting combo that will run a 80l waeco for at least 4 days. This is the most I have been away with my 80l and in that time there was a few short drives but this would have only put minimal charge to the deep cycles as they don't charge well from the alternator. I think the batteries only went to a lowest of 12.4 volts. I set mine up to last for as long as possible without having to worry about it.

I have a 80w solar panel and it runs thru a solar reg. (must have one of these) It is good to because it keeps a constant draw on the batteries so maintenence is not quite the issue it normally is. In full sun the panel will put more power into the batteries than an 80l waeco will take out on almost full setting in the back of the ute.

If you have any question just shoot cause it takes a lot to explain the ins and outs of the differents set ups.

I have had a couple of different ones now and feel that once you decide what will be running of what and how long you want it to last it will be a lot easier to decide.

Cheers
Brian

[zooki]

my fridge uses 30 a/hr's a day and I have 120 to use so I can sit for 4 days without charging.

You do not have 120Ah useable in a 120Ah battery. Thats is explained in the FAQ you posted. You can drain it right down but you are only trashing the battery life.

True on a wet cell battery but the specs for mine are 200 discharges to 0% will reduce capacity 50%
so I can run it flat every week for at least 2 years before it starts to fail.
normal deep cycle in the average dual battery setup is lucky to last 2 years with little use.

[frp88]

my truck is 24v so iam a little better off due to less amps drained if bought one off those waeco35l for $520 it has the old type off controls iam going to the camping show this weekend and see if i can get a good deal on a 3 way.my cousin goes camping for long periodes like 2 weeks on frazer and he had he food go off because he used his care to charge the deep cycles so think if i use to diffrent types then i have a better chanse off not ruining my holiday he now has upgraded his charging by 2 altinators and is going to make what christie eng. make

[dibbz]

A recent Landcruiser alternator will push either 80 or 110 amps, I've never had a problem with charging my deep cycle, I don't have a battery managment system as I prefer to keep it simple with easy to get parts any auto electrician stocks.

I do not see how 2 alternators help unless you want to charge with 160A. Maybe you can get an alternator that puts out more current at lower revs so you do charge when at idle, but then why not just go for a spin instead, always a good excuse to have a hot shower at waddy point and to get a pie from the servo.

I know on my 2H I need to do over 700rpm before I get over 13v to start the battery charging, you wouldn't know that without checking it with a meter. Either way I put a multimeter on it every day and go for a spin if its down near 11v, a short run will put it back up over 12v and I'll get by for another day or 2.

And always get meat cryovaced as well at your local friendly butcher, you can keep it in an esky for 2 weeks and it wont go off, if your fridge or battery kicks it mid relaxation.

[saigo]

I run a Waceo 50 litre fridge off a 100amp batt, also run a 300Watt invertor at night 3-4Hrs to run a fluro 30W I get about 2 days when its warmer 22+ and get 3 days when its winter here in Vic. I select high for the low batt cutoff switch so as not to damage the batt to quick.
On the way to where I'm going I have the Batt charged by the Altenator and have the fridge run at close to freeze as to chill all my stuff down prior to camp.
I also opening and close and restock my fridge alot at night (beer).
If she goes flat I run the car for about 30-40 min with revs above 1000RPM and that gets me another day.
There is also a cover bag avaliable for the fridge that helps insulate it more.(Wishlist)

[gu4800]

OK.

After spending the weekend with a mate at LCMP, and asking him all sortsa questions bout his experience with fridges and running them. He believes that for how I am going to use the fridge (ie, usually a 3 day stay with only 1 or 2 week long trips dueing the year) the dual battery is all I will need, with a bit of driving here and there to top it up. No need for solar or Generator. Therefore, I have decided on the following:-

- Engel 60L (you just can't beat there reputation I think)
- Dual Battery to run it (only the fridge to run of the aux battery)

My Patrol alternator puts our 110Amps.

So, now for the system:-

Is the ARB/TJM off the shelf dual battery kit OK (I think TJM is the Paranha and ARB is their own)? They come complete with all the bits and peices, and I think use/recommend the Exide battery.

Any suggestions on which dual battery system to go for? Want maintenance free, but is one that much better than the other?

Thanks again for all your useful info. Experience is always better than some guy at a shop saying "this one is pretty good, I've heard XYZ about it!". Prefer to get some info from people who have actually used the stuff personally.

[BigMav]

I've been told RedArc Smart Solenoids are the go. This is what I'll be putting in mine this week sometime. Cheap too at about 130 bucks. can't see the point in those electronic jobs at 400 a hit.

[BigMav]

heres a link to it

http://www.redarc.com.au/smart-start.htm

[TGH11X]

Both are good but from my experience selling both you would be better off with the engel. Better motor and less problems.

[frp88]

the price diff between waeco and engel is almost double and i prefer the that the waeco is plastic for my beach work. my cousin has 1 off each the engel is 3 years old 8trips to the ilands and its starting to rust

[zooki]

OK.

After spending the weekend with a mate at LCMP, and asking him all sortsa questions bout his experience with fridges and running them. He believes that for how I am going to use the fridge (ie, usually a 3 day stay with only 1 or 2 week long trips dueing the year) the dual battery is all I will need, with a bit of driving here and there to top it up. No need for solar or Generator. Therefore, I have decided on the following:-

- Engel 60L (you just can't beat there reputation I think)
- Dual Battery to run it (only the fridge to run of the aux battery)

My Patrol alternator puts our 110Amps.

So, now for the system:-

Is the ARB/TJM off the shelf dual battery kit OK (I think TJM is the Paranha and ARB is their own)? They come complete with all the bits and peices, and I think use/recommend the Exide battery.

Any suggestions on which dual battery system to go for? Want maintenance free, but is one that much better than the other?

Thanks again for all your useful info. Experience is always better than some guy at a shop saying "this one is pretty good, I've heard XYZ about it!". Prefer to get some info from people who have actually used the stuff personally.

get the tray off whoever (if one takes a bigger battery go with it otherwise cheapest I guess)
get the redarc isolator and some heavy cable

spend the money you saved on a bigger battery, don't bother with the exide or anything a 4x4 shop tries to sell you, go to somewhere like battery world and look for the biggest capacity that will fit in the tray, ask about AGM sryle batteries, dearer but take more abuse and usually have more capacity for size.
I use a fullriver HGL-120 www.fullriver.com and there is a huge range of sizes so something should suit your needs.

[BigMav]

check here for a good deal on a redarc solenoid

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... 605#554605