Speed up my ox hydraulic winch

[Adomw]

Gents,

any idea how to get my hydraulic winch to run faster?

Ado

[YankeeDave]

get an engine driven pump to supply oil to the winch. with a tank of approx 30L

or run the pump from a pto.

[Adomw]

any idea what sort of pump

would I have to mod the winch?

Ado

[frp88]

how much money do you want to spend $1200 part only and you have make your own valve block still interested

[YankeeDave]

gets really expensive, but gives a quicker winch

[Bush65]

any idea what sort of pump

would I have to mod the winch?

Ado

A gear pump would be good enough, but other fixed displacement type pumps should be suitable as well. Use a belt drive from the crankshaft pulley or a pto arrangement.

The directional control valve bolted to the hydraulic motor on you winch is can handle a larger flow rate than the normal power steering pump. If you choose a pump that is suitable for use with the stock valves, you can obtain quite good winching speeds.

If you go for a much larger pump (for high winch speeds), you will have to change to valves and hoses/pipes that can handle the flow and then it is starting to get expensive. No other change to the winch is required.

[MAVRK-4]

You also need to consider if a bigger pump is going to make the hydraulic motor get significantly hotter.

I know they do fit these ox winches with optional power steering oil coolers to prolong winching duration because otherwise the oil becomes to hot

[jeep97tj]

all u need is more flow so u will need to fit larger hoses, also find out the specs of your power steering pump (flow, pressure. flow gives u the speed, pressure gives u the grunt) and choose a larger pump. lots of people seem to use falcon pumps for full hydro setup in buggys so compare the specs of your current pump to a falcons, of try a small truck power steering pump eg a canter of trader. if your doing comps a 5L tank and cooler wouldnt hurt.

In saying that u will need to talk to a hydro shop and find out what flow rate the winch valves can handle, to much flow and not enough pressure will cause the steering pump to go over its relef valve causing massive amounts of heat destorying the oil, to much flow and pressure will cause alot of heat in the winch valves themselves and over heat the system, or go over the winch relief valve??? dont no if they have one.

[GQ4.8coilcab]

glen dobbin did sumtin to his winch, send him a e-mail

[sierrajim]

Or sell it and buy a high mount.

Looking at your specs you're not running competition, any reason for the faster line speed?

[YankeeDave]

Or sell it and buy a high mount.

Looking at your specs you're not running competition, any reason for the faster line speed?

have you seen a stock ox hydraulic winch. it struggles to keep up with a hand winch.

even a slow mount would be 10 times as quick

[chimpboy]

What about a dedicated power steering pump with a nice small pulley so that it spins really fast?

This is my booty fab, on-the-cheap suggestion. Whatever you do here is going to be a bit experimental.

Jason

[Dodger]

I like the above dedicated power steering pulley idea.
The other way is to contact ox and see if they have a solution.

[rlaxton]

It might be best to go and talk to an hydraulic specialist to get an idea of what you need. Either that or do some reesearch on hydraulic system yourself.

For your information, the motor on your OX winch is probably a Sauer-Danfoss DH-315. This motor works at up to 60L/min flow which is around 10 times what your PS pump is putting out. That is to say, you can speed it up by 10 times without exceeding the rated specs of the motor. It is imperative that pressure (which equates to pulling force) is kept to the rated 1800psi (or whatever it says in the specs for the winch) otherwise you risk breaking the drivetrain and with no integrated brake, there would be nothing to stop you ending up at the bottom of a hill in pieces.

Your bits and pieces do not have to cost a fortune. Surplus places like www.surpluscenter.com will have most of what you need including clutch pumps for crank use and gear type pumps for PTO use. Electric 12V solenoid valves with decent flow can be found on eBay for far less than you can buy them retail. Keep in mind though that to be really safe, you will want a counterbalance valve which will achieve two things:

1. Stop the winch from running away (or backwards) if you blow a hose
2. Stop the winch from running away when lowering yourself down a slope.

Both pretty good points! The stock control valve with the OX uses a kind of restrictor (those washer things) as a sort of ghetto way of achieving this but that limits the ultimate flow of the valve.

A dedicated PS type pump is not going to solve your problems because it will still only flow maybe 12L/min (for a high flow pump).

Heat should not be too big a problem for the sort of duty cycle that a non-comp person will be experiencing, but a cooler will help keep the oil temp below the 85 deg C that the seals are rated for.

Richard.

[1MadEngineer]

all cool ideas,



but not quite close enough.

and no you cant speed up a 315cc geroller motor 10 times as max rated rpm on most of these units is ~250-500rpm so all you will do is blow the front pressure seal unless a case drain is added.






so how do you get them to go?



22kw mag clutch - $800
40mm wide 14mm pitch toothed belt drive setup ~$400
50cc gear pump - ~$700 + couplings
2 station cetop5 manifold w/ relief, h spool supply ,j spool directional, dual size 12 c/balance subplate - $1100
165cc lsht motor - ~$600
fittings and tank + ext cooler - $600


and this will give good speed and power






edit - sorry these are trade prices

[frp88]

all cool ideas,



but not quite close enough.

and no you cant speed up a 315cc geroller motor 10 times as max rated rpm on most of these units is ~250-500rpm so all you will do is blow the front pressure seal unless a case drain is added.






so how do you get them to go?



22kw mag clutch - $800
40mm wide 14mm pitch toothed belt drive setup ~$400
50cc gear pump - ~$700 + couplings
2 station cetop5 manifold w/ relief, h spool supply ,j spool directional, dual size 12 c/balance subplate - $1100
165cc lsht motor - ~$600
fittings and tank + ext cooler - $600


and this will give good speed and power






edit - sorry these are trade prices

and how much quicker do you think that would be
my cousin went from .8m a minute to 11m a minute

[GQ4.8coilcab]

the ox hydro motor is a mile marker, not sure model numba

[Bush65]

the ox hydro motor is a mile marker, not sure model numba

They are (or are the same as) Mile Marker hydraulic winch. But Mile Marker don't make the hyd motor.

As Richard stated above Sauer-Danfoss DH-315 (at least on the one I have).

[bushytas]

all cool ideas,



but not quite close enough.

and no you cant speed up a 315cc geroller motor 10 times as max rated rpm on most of these units is ~250-500rpm so all you will do is blow the front pressure seal unless a case drain is added. :cry:






so how do you get them to go?



22kw mag clutch - $800
40mm wide 14mm pitch toothed belt drive setup ~$400
50cc gear pump - ~$700 + couplings
2 station cetop5 manifold w/ relief, h spool supply ,j spool directional, dual size 12 c/balance subplate - $1100
165cc lsht motor - ~$600
fittings and tank + ext cooler - $600


and this will give good speed and power :armsup:






edit - sorry these are trade prices :oops:

mmmmmm I don’t think this mod was done right as I don’t see a price for beer on the inventory list :)
lol ok not funny but i thought i was

[uninformed]

from my Maxi Drive info the mile maker has a "white roller stator" model RS 18. 18 cubic inch or 293cc per rev. This motor can flow 76lpm continuous giving a shaft speed of 257rpm. Basicly with the gearbox in forth and 2000rpm the Maxi Drive hyd pto with 40p18 will deliver 60lm. If the winch is in low(6-1) the first layer on drum will get 8m/min increasing to 10m/min. In high(1-1) the cable speed for the third layer is 59m/min

i have read on another post that the bear Mile Marker winch (when you buy it you don't get all the kit to hook up to your power steering) comes only with ports on the hyd motor, compered to the same winch in kit form comes with mainfold mounts for valves. Now it sounds like its important to have a couterbalance valve. can this be mounted to the motor with ports only?

cheers, Serg

[80UTE]

Ive got a 70 Ltr/min @ 2000 rpm gear pump complete with 12v electric clutch thats driven by 2 13A belts that has done and hours work cost me $1800 and is now sitting on the shelf so for the right $$$$$$$$$$$$$ i would be happy to part with it.

Wally

[GQ4.8coilcab]

Yer u r right bush56, the solanoid on stop of it is mile marker.

[Bush65]

from my Maxi Drive info the mile maker has a "white roller stator" model RS 18. 18 cubic inch or 293cc per rev. This motor can flow 76lpm continuous giving a shaft speed of 257rpm. Basicly with the gearbox in forth and 2000rpm the Maxi Drive hyd pto with 40p18 will deliver 60lm. If the winch is in low(6-1) the first layer on drum will get 8m/min increasing to 10m/min. In high(1-1) the cable speed for the third layer is 59m/min

i have read on another post that the bear Mile Marker winch (when you buy it you don't get all the kit to hook up to your power steering) comes only with ports on the hyd motor, compered to the same winch in kit form comes with mainfold mounts for valves. Now it sounds like its important to have a couterbalance valve. can this be mounted to the motor with ports only?

cheers, Serg

That indicates that they have used different motors, or may be be a difference between mile marker and ox.

The counterbalance is used for braking and to stop runaway when lowering.

Ideal position for a counterbalance valve is direct mounting on motor as in this pic, because it will still work with a blown hose.

You can mount the c/b valve remotely if you use good quality hoses with a suitable margin of {burst pressure/relief valve pressure}, routed where they are protected, and have a good, fast acting relief valve to protect against over pressure.

Edit:
If driving and winching creates slack rope and the vehicle slips back, the sudden application of load can create transient pressure higher than the relief valve setting. How much higher depends upon characteristics of the particular relief valve.

The relief valve setting and characteristics, also determines the load in the winch rope and a good relief valve will protect the rope from overload breakage much better than electric winches in situations like this.

[rlaxton]

from my Maxi Drive info the mile maker has a "white roller stator" model RS 18. 18 cubic inch or 293cc per rev.

i have read on another post that the bear Mile Marker winch (when you buy it you don't get all the kit to hook up to your power steering) comes only with ports on the hyd motor, compered to the same winch in kit form comes with mainfold mounts for valves. Now it sounds like its important to have a couterbalance valve. can this be mounted to the motor with ports only?

cheers, Serg

It looks like the MM winches are fitted with a wide range of motors ranging from Danfoss, White Industries, Eaton etc. At this point in time they all seem to come with Danfoss motors. It is a pretty common fitment and size so I guess they go with the lowest bidder. Either way, it looks like the performance is similar with both units.

You are right that there are two versions, the "70 series" and "75 series". The "70 series" is the one without controls and comes with SAE #10 ports. The "75 series" is the one with the (useless low flow) solenoid with the high tech washer based speed restrictor to stop you from dying when you blow a hose. This one has the manifold mounts. You can fit counterbalance valves to both types of winch but with the manifold mount you have the valve mounted direct on the motor so no hoses to blow. Unfortunately, the best price I have seen for an appropriate counterbalance valve is US$200 which is what the guys at Winches Plus have quoted me. Still, this is not a bad deal considering that the best I have seen them for hear in Australia is A$650.

For everyone's information, Winches Plus (www.winchesplus.com) sell the basic 10500lb MM winch with cable and fairlead for US$560 (in either normal or manifold mount style). They also sell the winch with no motor at all for US$450 so there is a nice saving there if you wanted to buy an upgraded motor (such as the 165cc motor mentioned by 1MadEngineer above) and run higher pressure.

Looking at the datasheet for the DH-315 I see that it produces about 360Nm and 175rpm @ 60L/min and max pressure of 1500psi. This equates to 10500lb pull. Now, to maintain our maximum pull we need to maintain a force of 360Nm but make more speed at the same 60L/min (which is the most these sorts of motors can usually handle). We do this by using a smaller motor and more pressure. The DH series motors are a bit of a wash here so we move to the higher spec DS series instead. Let us try say a DS160 motor. It has a maximum intermittent torque of more than 360Nm so we can still get the same pulling power. Looking at it's diagram we see that at the same 60L/min flow but 2500psi instead we get 350rpm instead and the motor is putting out around 12kW. This means that we should get 16m/minute in low on the bottom layer and 22m/min on the top layer. High speed will be almost 120m/min which just sounds dangerous so the pump would best be slowed for high gear use.

The disadvantage would be reduced motor life since you are stressing the motor more than the DH-315 was. Still, this is a winch we are talking about, hardly the highest duty cycle use for an hydraulic motor. You would have to pay good attention to the cooling etc. My idea here is to utilise the water cooling circuit of my water-air inercooler with a marine oil cooler. When winching, the motor is hardly going to be stressing out so there is a lot of cooling capacity wasted.

Another suggestion if you were going to buy such a motor would be to buy one with an integrated brake such as the Eaton T series. This would provide additional safety in the case of hydraulic failure. It is interesting to not that virtually all industrial winches have integral brakes. Very few (none?) rely on hydraulic braking when lowering loads.

Richard.

[Bush65]

...Very few (none?) rely on hydraulic braking when lowering loads.

Richard.

That is good info you posted there Richard.

Just my 2c worth on your last comment. I don't dissagree with what you have said, but just incase people start to panick over using a counterbalance valve as a brake, counterbalance valves are intended to hold loads in hydraulic circuits and there are many thousands out there doing just that. Examples would include the jib lift circuit for a mobile hydraulic crane.

[rlaxton]

Just my 2c worth on your last comment. I don't dissagree with what you have said, but just incase people start to panick over using a counterbalance valve as a brake, counterbalance valves are intended to hold loads in hydraulic circuits and there are many thousands out there doing just that. Examples would include the jib lift circuit for a mobile hydraulic crane.

Very true, although the holding is only during movement right? Proper valves hold the cylinder when stationery. Also, an internal gear type motor leaks a lot more than a cylinder so it will probably move a little.

As you say though, it is not a huge deal. Just don't leave your truck hangning off your winch while you go for help and expect to find it where you left it when you get back :-)

Richard.

[uninformed]

i've been looking at the superwinch h8p,h10p,h11p and the warn hyd 12 and 9. these have disc brake set ups. do they only work(brake) if there's fluid, ie what happens if you blow a hose. do you still require a counter balance vavle
serg

[Bush65]

I don't know anything about those winches, but I would expect original fitment disc brakes to be spring applied and hydraulic released.

Also they may be wet style disc brakes if built into the hyd motor.

The brakes in some hydraulic motors are only meant to be parking brakes, but some do have service brakes.

If they are only parking brakes, I would like to have a counterbalance valve.

Normal practice with a hydraulic circuit for a motor (or cylinder) that lifts/lowers a load, is to use a counterbalance valve (or an overcentre valve to have good control of the load while lowering).

In many cases it is necessary to use cross port relief valves, to ensure that the inlet port is supplied with oil if an external force can cause the motor to rotate.

Low end (consumer market) hydraulic winches do not have these niceties.

[Adomw]

Thanks for your info guys

I think that I will just get a bigger pump - its just driving the pump that's the hassle

no room left in the engine bay unless I replace the PS pump and I don't want ot stuff up the weighting of the currnet steering set up

I was toying with the idea of using a PTO - but I'll have to import that from South Africa or somewhere.

I only want to get speeds approaching that of a low mount electric winch

Ado

[frp88]

so adomw you havent responded to my "q" off how much you wanted to spend. if all you want is a little speed get a big ford powersteering pump all off the other mods big $ and take up room