gas conversion...is it really worth it?

[big bundy]

hey guys, with the fuel prices going further and further up and with the 22R sucking all the money out of my pockets, i was thinking whether its really worth doing a lpg conversion, i take it it will cost me between 200-800 bucks to buy the tank, mixer out of the tradingpost, but i guess it will have to be mounted internally, and that means loosing about 50% of the storage space in the back of the 70, loss of preformance/power, and also i hear that some cars don;t go very well with a gas conversion, cracking heads etc.

so the question comes down to it whether it is worth it or not??

thanks heaps, greg

[Loanrangie]

You could get all the bits you need for around $200 or so, not hard to fit your self. Where is the fuel tank? If its mid mounted then a tank will fit under the rear or near by.

[big bundy]

na it is right up the back of the cruiser. I am told that gas kills valves, is the 22R prone to this?

greg

[bluemq]

You can run a valve lube for like $50 a year which should save the valves.

[mechtech]

i have to say gas all the way.
i got my 88" lux and it had gas with it,, now for $24 i can fill the tank and get about 400-450 kms out of it, the lux has a 3y and i just leave the timing setup for gas. and it easly dose a full day in low range, and most of the way home.

on the lux, the petrol tank sits as usal on the right side behind cab, and the gas sits up the center, between the two rails.

the other life saver is hill climbs/desents, dont have to worry bout fuel cutting out in the middle of a stunt.

the other adv is its the same as dual tanks, go further on the one fill,, got 870kms b4 i needed to refill.

well thats my 2 cents. i recon its worth it....

[awill4x4]

Sssssssshhhhhhhhh, don't encourage any other ba$tards to use it. If it's too popular, the fuel companies will just push the price up.
So Greg, the answer is "no" just forget all about it and leave us other LPG users in peace
Regards Andrew.

[NISMOgemini]

does runing duel fuel stunt the vehicals performance (power/torque) when off road??

my old man has always run duel fuel on his work utes (2wd's) and when in LPG mode they lose probably 15% of there power.

[RaginRover]

does runing duel fuel stunt the vehicals performance (power/torque) when off road??

my old man has always run duel fuel on his work utes (2wd's) and when in LPG mode they lose probably 15% of there power.

most people advance the ass out of their setup and run it as close as they can to ideal lpg performance then just resign themselves to the fact that they have to run premium when they are on fuel,

I get a little bit of power loss but it would be nowhere near 15% - the 15% figure is ususally the additional consumption - cars tend to use more lpg for the distance vs fuel

Tom

[NISMOgemini]

so advancing the timing to compeat with the LPG will be fine with the petrol (if runing premium)?

doing this, then flicking back to petrol mode (on premium) it will still perform aswell as if it didnt have the duel fuel and advanced timing in the 1st place?

[RaginRover]

so advancing the timing to compeat with the LPG will be fine with the petrol (if runing premium)?

doing this, then flicking back to petrol mode (on premium) it will still perform aswell as if it didnt have the duel fuel and advanced timing in the 1st place?

you have the right idea, basically LPG likes more advance in the initial timing and less advance over the whole range.

so if you fill up with premium and drive around for a little while then advance the timing while running on fuel until maximum revs then retard it 1g of mercury you will have max advance without pinging (I use a vacuum gauge to set my advance they cost about $60 but are well worth it - you can learn a lot for them)

The above process should give you max advance without pinging on fuel (at least that is the theory sometimes you might have to retart the timing a little more) and that should give you more power/less power loss while running on LPG without ruining your fuel setup.

Dual fuel is a compromise, you can set it up a lot better for straight LPG or straight fuel obviously but you can reach a happy medium. The best setup is an electronically controlled distributor/coil pack car with an ecu that would hold two maps one for LPG and one for fuel and then you can modify the total advance of both maps to suit the fuel

Tom

[big bundy]

thanks guys for the advice, at this point in time i will be investing in a setup, i can't see how a gas system will fit under the bundy without pulling the fuel tank and make it a lpg only system, i would rather run duel fuel as i won;t be able to get LPG right out in the bush.....or so i am told.
Will i legally be able to install all the gear, but lines will have to be done by somebody who has a gas ticket?
Does anything have to be changed wih the carby or is it mixer that goes onto the air intake pipe?

thanks heaps greg

[RaginRover]

thanks guys for the advice, at this point in time i will be investing in a setup, i can't see how a gas system will fit under the bundy without pulling the fuel tank and make it a lpg only system, i would rather run duel fuel as i won;t be able to get LPG right out in the bush.....or so i am told.
Will i legally be able to install all the gear, but lines will have to be done by somebody who has a gas ticket?
Does anything have to be changed wih the carby or is it mixer that goes onto the air intake pipe?

thanks heaps greg

go and speak to an installer and find out what they want and what they will allow, but yes mount up the tank, run the lines throught but don't flare them , plumb the converter into the heater lines etc etc and let them check it over and finish it off.

They shouldn't have a problem with you doing that - ask them how they would do it, i.e. where they would put the converter, where they would cut the heater lines, where they would run the copper line, where they would mount the filler and they copy what they would do so when you come back it is exactly how they would have laid it out.

I know of a lot of people who do this in qld and nsw without a drama.
It is about finding someone who is interested in talking to you about it

Tom

[Loanrangie]

Yes you can, i have just done my rangie, found a guy who will compliance for $90 - as long as all is legal.

[V8Patrol]

A few things to consider......

A LPG fitter once told me that if the vehicle is getting 30mpg ( or 10k's per lit ) then it is financially stupid to install a new lpg setup.... however a 2nd hand setup is well worth it.
The reason being that the cost of "paying off" the lpg setup by off setting it with the savings of the lpg pump price will take 2 many years to be of any real value....... So .... if ya getting 30mpg and are paying for a new LPG kit and installation then dont expect to save a single cent for a couple of years.

LPG in offroad vehicles is BETTER than petrol...... zero chance of starving or flooding when driving at accute angles, will not leak out in a rollover, a litre of LPG is almost half the weight of a litre of ULP petrol, much smoother engine performance overall.

a couple of negatives....
The weight of the LPG tank......... yep they off set the actual fuel weight argument.
A jerrycan of LPG isnt as easy as a jerrycan of petrol to get, to transfer, to refill or to carry.
You do use slightly more LPG compared to petrol on a miliage run example: if you use 10 lits of petrol to do 100K's then expect to use 13 - 14 lits of LPG to do the same distance.


Personally .......
$0.49 cents a lit for LPG is heaps better than $1.23 for ULP !

Kingy

[big bundy]

thanks kingy, currently i have used about 50L of petrol to 310kms of driving, about half of that was on a highway. so that work out to be around 15-16L per 100kms, pretty high on a students wage i have seen your posts a while back with several lpg tanks, i take it u are a passonate user of lpg? do u have your tanks mounted underneath or internally?

thanks heaps, greg

[phobos0001]

sorry to thread jack, but where can you get LPG jerry-cans, how do they work, and how big are they?

big bundy, i'd vote yes on the conversion too, fuel prices just went up heaps, as we all know

[F'n_Rover]

9kg BBQ gas bottles. plus adapter fitting

[phobos0001]

adapter fittings ey? and this can be purchaced from any place that sells gas bottles and fittings, or is there more to it then that?, like the 9kg'er needs a higher pressure or something (again sorry for the jack)

[F'n_Rover]

you have to dodgy up an adapter lead yourself, dont know how, but from memory you used to be able to buy them.

[F'n_Rover]

best to talk to a taxi driver. they do this all the time

[V8Patrol]

pends on which rig we're looking at !!!! ( 9 MQ's ere )

main rig runs duel tanks...... pics @ ......
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=50204

Commodore bash car I'm currently setting up is getting duel tanks and will have 140 lits of usable LPG and still retain the original petrol tank ( much to my disgust )

I did my first LPG conversion back in 1980 to a 4 cylinder car...ppl recond I was mad but soon followed suit when the big "scare" was on and every-one thought the world was about to run out of fuel. Since then I have fitted LPG to just about everything I've owned and generally do a my conversion for around the $200 mark using 2nd hand stuff from the wreckers, aditional costs are generally small and "pocket change stuff" with the only exception being getting the tank re-certified which costs around the $130 mark.

Wreckers charge $100 for a out of date tank & around $150 for an in date tank. I picked up a 90lit tank a couple of weeks back for $150 with 9 years date still on it..... it came with the feed line to the engine bay, the guage & mounting brackets for the tank & the filler conector and line.
The converter n mixer I'll be using came from a swap met and cost $20. I'll fit a flexi line between the tank n engine bay instead of using the copper pipe I got with the tank and this cost me $50 for 5 metres. The "sundrie items" are..... a switch for petrol/lpg ( $5 ), 5 metres of 5 core trailer wire ( $8 ) and $5 for nuts n bolts.

Best option is to hunt around a few wreckers yards and see whats availiable for starters........
As around for others that have tanks under the same type of rig as your own and get the tank dementions off of them IE: length / diameter / capacity..... get some pics too so fitting your tank becomes easier.

all up it would take a w/end to fully fit up a system and be driving away and thats using a tank thats got no brackets with it !....
Would take a day to do a straight fit if the system came out of the same type of rig as your own.

Its the fitting of the tank that takes the time specially when its an 'odd setup" or non std tank in a unusual placement such as my "reserve tank" beside the rear drive shaft on my main MQ.

As for the savings...... they start the day the LPG is switched on

Best example I can give straight off of my head is last years Great escape rally......
General Lee used $950 and thats a 265ci straight 6 motor.....
Old Yella used $1500 and its a 202ci holden 6.......

The general Lee is duel fuel where as old yella is sole petrol.
Both cars did the EXACT SAME distance, EXACT SAME tracks, and were both driven HARD !....... but $550 dollars cheaper in the general was a huge differance.

Kingy

[munecito]

I actually don't mind the LPG. In venezuela my father had a taxi with dual fuels and as long as you use one petrol for each two or three LPG tanks the valves and everything are going to be all right.

The LPG run cleaner than petrol that is why some people call "problems", because they are so tigh ass that they want to run only in LPG and usually the cars get the convertion after the engine has done a a couple on thousand K's and they have already wore a little their internal components. With the LPG running so clean all the carbonite deposites start to clean themselves and is when th valves, rings, etc fail.

I worked in beaurepaires and they have some falcon AU UTES that only work with LPG. The one I used had 130.000 K's and still going strong (it came only LPG from factory) and used special engine oil for LPG vehicles, etc.

Well my dad did the convertion to his taxi that already had 80.000 Kms in the clock and managed to get another 60.000Kms without any problem, then he sold the car and the new owner had no problems for a long time after that. Then he rebuilt the engine and the car is still running (is a neighbourg or my family in Venezuela).

It is a pity that my sierra doesn't have the room and the strengh to manage an LPG convertion or I would have done that conevertion a while ago. Not because of the fuel price, but because is cleaner.

Will

[CAP51Z]

forgive me for my ignorance, would it be possible to install an LPG setup to a Diesel? maybe change head & Injection or something? on an Isuzu 1.8 ltr (TG Gemini Diesel).

[phobos0001]

a friend told me that you gan get LPG assisted diesel, but im not sure if he was just talking out of his a$$ or is there was a gem of truth in there?


hey another question about LPG tanks:

i first bought my 253 v8 hilux on gas with a 72lt tank running lenghtwise oposite the petrol tank with the tailshaft between the tanks, i removed the tank and got a new lpg tank in the tray, my question is: is there any danger with putting another tank where the old one was? it seems a bit iffy having presurised explosive gas under the 4x4, where all those jagged rocks are :S

[planb]

yes

gas is 1/3 the cost of petrol

nuff said

[V8Patrol]

forgive me for my ignorance, would it be possible to install an LPG setup to a Diesel? maybe change head & Injection or something? on an Isuzu 1.8 ltr (TG Gemini Diesel).

Yes its possiable and currently being done by several large interstate trucking companys to offset the high cost of diesel.

The system works by reducing the amount of diesel being injected directly into the motor and that reduced amount is replaced by LPg via the traditional induction method 99% of LPG users have on their cars.... IE: by a converter and mixer on top of the carby.

The duel diesel setup has some huge benifits.... up to 30% horsepower increase, 10 - 20 % running costs saving, cleaner exhaust emmisions.

Basicaly the diesel ignites first and its the burning diesel which then ignites the LPG, the second ignition point of the LPG produces the increase in horsepower and because the LPG burns hotter any remaining diesel is also burnt off .......
The reduction of the amount of injected diesel means far less pollutant is emmitted and because of the 2nd burn of the LPG the entire amount of diesel is burnt off unlike a tradition motor in which a smal percentage is passed out into the atmosphere.

I think I added a few links about diesel & LPG threads into the "Book of LPG"....... so have a gander at the tech section bible.

Kingy

[V8Patrol]

i first bought my 253 v8 hilux on gas with a 72lt tank running lenghtwise oposite the petrol tank with the tailshaft between the tanks, i removed the tank and got a new lpg tank in the tray, my question is: is there any danger with putting another tank where the old one was? it seems a bit iffy having presurised explosive gas under the 4x4, where all those jagged rocks are :S

So whats the differance in having a highly volitile liquid in a tank right next to it being draged over the same rocks......
Petrol tank thickness is on average 1mm sheet steel........
LPG tanks are 6mm thick !

I think you'll find that its LAW to have a "bash shield" fitted to external under body LPG tanks anyway & generally the thickness of these bash plates is 3mm.....so.....

6mm thick tank + 3mm thick bash shield = 9mm of protection versus 1mm of protection on the petrol tank...........


Next time you're draging the 1mm thick petrol tank over those "jagged rocks" with the stinking hot zorst pipe just inches away just remember petrol is just as "explosive" as LPG ...... enjoy ya next wheelin trip

makes ya wonder where the logic in 4x4 design is hey

Kingy

[phobos0001]

what petrol? my tank is dry and empty, never been filled since the conversion, and my main concern was the fact that if petrol gets a hole, it dribbles out, if gas gets a hole, it pisses out coz it's pressurized, also unlike petrol, it doesnt just fall to the ground, it goes everywhere, including the toasty zaust, on that thought though fuel isnt exactly fume free :S......... well thats a little unsettleing now isnt it! i rekon i'll get a second LPG tank after reading this, mabey something a bit bigger then the 100lt one im the tray, but switch them around (clearence reasons)

[CAP51Z]

so mounting an LPG tank in the back of a LWB zook wold not be acceptable, as it shares the passenger compartment? Do you get any/many fumes from LPG setups?

[V8Patrol]

so mounting an LPG tank in the back of a LWB zook wold not be acceptable, as it shares the passenger compartment? Do you get any/many fumes from LPG setups?

Actually quite acceptible to mount a tank within the passenger compartment...... many stationwagons have em mounted this way !

In reality most passenger cars have em in the boot but ....... the panel between the back seat and the boot usually has holes in it so where's the differance ?

The tanks MUST "vent" to the outside of the vehicle in ALL cases be they within the passenger compartment or in the boot or external as if fited on a tray.
The tank sub compartment has two "spouts" through which the fill line and supply line run, in an "internal" fitting situation these spouts have a large flexi hose ( usually black in color and 2" in diameter) in which the fill line and supply line run. I think its called "horses collar tubing"
This tubing stops any fumes from entering the cabin area.

In some cases vehicles may have to resort to placeing a "box" over an internally fitted tank so to stop any fumes from entering the cabin area. these boxes are generally made from 1.5mm alloy and are sealed to the floor area around the tank.

I'll get some pics of a
"box" which fits a holden 1 tonner tray
The Horses collar tubing & how the plumbing of this tubing works later today...... ( I'm fitting up duel tanks to my commodore today )

As for the "Fume" querry....
the LPG system is designed so it does NOT leak or vent under normal conditions....however..... incase of an accident the tank may vent or in a few cases the copper feed lines have become work hardened and fracture ( one of the reasons why flexi line is now the only acceptible fill & supply material one can use ).

The local CFA branch had a "field day" a few months back in which a mock accident was set up involving a vehicle with 70lits of lpg and 60 lits of ULP, this car was then set alight........

The petrol tank burst 12 minutes after ignition and its entire contents burst into a massive fireball over 50 metres high and around 30 metres wide.... the heat was unbelivable !
The LPG tank started to vent small amounts of LPG 15 minutes after ignition... these "vents" were around 2 seconds in length and happened every 30 odd seconds as an average. The flame was about 5 metres in length and only around a metre in diameter.

The CFA boys extinguished the fire 30 mins after they had started it and the next day experts came in and did an assesment.....
ULP left ..... zero
LPG left .... 57 lits !

The LPG tank was then removed and tested by an authorised teser, it was found to be in a "safe working condition".... he then removed the remaining LPG and the tank was refitted with a new lockout solinoid, & guage etc .... he then recertified the tank and it was then taken to be fitted to another vehicle for the next "field day"....
the petrol tank was a wright off !

I'll have my LPG any day thanks

Kingy



If you can smell LPG .......
STOP the vehicle INSTANTLY....
you have a problem..... something is broken.

Kingy