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Roll cage material - CAMS
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
Roll cage material - CAMS
for off road 4x4 competition can the roll cage be made from alloy or does it have to be steel for CAMS approval. i have heard different answers when talking to roll cage manufacturers
alloy is stupid. it can be built strong but after a roll or two its all over. also its not much lighter than steel as it has to be so much thicker, and braced more thoroughly. its the same with cromoly steel that is so thin that it collapses like a coke can after it gets a ding, and also gives up the goast after a rol or two.. as far as i know they aren't allowed cromoly either in v8 supercars and the likes. look up the ccda website for further rules and clarification
ADHD Racing would like to thank
Mrs Bru @ Sunshine Coast Developmental Physiotherapy - www.scdphysio.com.au , Ryano @ Fourbys www.generaltire.com.au Blitzkrieg Motorsport
Mrs Bru @ Sunshine Coast Developmental Physiotherapy - www.scdphysio.com.au , Ryano @ Fourbys www.generaltire.com.au Blitzkrieg Motorsport
Geez Bru, I don't think you could get much further away from the truth about chrome/moly if you tried.bru21 wrote: its the same with cromoly steel that is so thin that it collapses like a coke can after it gets a ding, and also gives up the goast after a rol or two.. as far as i know they aren't allowed cromoly either in v8 supercars and the likes. look up the ccda website for further rules and clarification
Every supercar uses chrome/moly tubing, every sprintcar, jetboats are changing over to it and even tractors in tractor pull events are using it now.
How do I know? Well, we are probably the largest user and reseller of chrome/moly tubing in Victoria short of the defence department.
We Tig weld it nearly every day and compared to welding steel it's much better.
CAMS unfortunately, don't know how to deal with the stuff and put it in the too hard basket and insist on either a complete destructive test of a cage or some very sophisticated computer modelling. (adding about 4k-5k on the price of a cage) Still that won't stop the supercar guys because they can build it light and still get good strength. Rally car guys are trying to get around it by switching to chrome/manganese steel tubing with similar strength to weight but it has some very nasty health consequences for those welding the sh@t.
Regards Andrew.
ps: If you don't want to go down the chrome/moly route just use CDW, drawn over mandrel tubing and go up in wall thickness. (we use that stuff as well sometimes)
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
the question was a for roll cage for 4x4ing and cams approval. in the 4x4 industry how many are specialists that have the knowledge to tig weld chromoly to supercar standards. i know brent from wizard has worked with it a lot (and built some fine cages) but who else?
cams don't like it as you can't visually inspect if the welds were stress releived, preheated etc.etc. it is not a product for backyarders.
perhaps the single biggest issue is when people mig weld chromoly the weld is too cold and a stress line forms after the weld heat zone passes and the area behind cools too fast. tig is the best way (longer and more heat allowing the areas after the weld to cool slowely) as apart from utectic brazing which does little damage to the crystal structure of the parent metals.
secondly chromoly is similar to stainless steel in that it needs a different bending radius to mild as the tensile is higher. using the mild steel dies will give insufficent bend strength and may crinkle the inner surface.
so for big $$$ teams it is better, but is still left unpainted so the stress cracks at the welds can be seen, highlighting that this is still a problem.
The following is quoted directly from the Metal Fabricators Handbook by
Hp Books - Which covers metal fabrication for Race Cars and the like
(good book):
"One final comment about using chrome moly - DON'T. There are few
applications that warrant the use of chrome moly unless your building an
airplane, a formula-1 car or an Indy car. Unfortunately, chrome moly
steel has become trick. It literally falls into the category of "a
little bit of knowledge can be dangerous." Yes, it is stronger than mild steel. It is also Less Tough (as described on page 46). Under
impact, as in a crash, a chrome moly steel part is much more likely to
break rather than bend as would a mild steel part"
It goes on to describe the correct type of chrome moly to use (annealed)
, the welding process whith it's preheating and stress relieving steps
(need a oxyacetalene torch & something like a tempilstik crayon to
indicate correct temp).
4130 is only about 25% stronger than 1020HR - This book recommends
1020CR (better than 1020HR) for things like frame fabrication and 1020
Cold Formed seamless tubing for rollbars & what-not.
ok
cams don't like it as you can't visually inspect if the welds were stress releived, preheated etc.etc. it is not a product for backyarders.
perhaps the single biggest issue is when people mig weld chromoly the weld is too cold and a stress line forms after the weld heat zone passes and the area behind cools too fast. tig is the best way (longer and more heat allowing the areas after the weld to cool slowely) as apart from utectic brazing which does little damage to the crystal structure of the parent metals.
secondly chromoly is similar to stainless steel in that it needs a different bending radius to mild as the tensile is higher. using the mild steel dies will give insufficent bend strength and may crinkle the inner surface.
so for big $$$ teams it is better, but is still left unpainted so the stress cracks at the welds can be seen, highlighting that this is still a problem.
The following is quoted directly from the Metal Fabricators Handbook by
Hp Books - Which covers metal fabrication for Race Cars and the like
(good book):
"One final comment about using chrome moly - DON'T. There are few
applications that warrant the use of chrome moly unless your building an
airplane, a formula-1 car or an Indy car. Unfortunately, chrome moly
steel has become trick. It literally falls into the category of "a
little bit of knowledge can be dangerous." Yes, it is stronger than mild steel. It is also Less Tough (as described on page 46). Under
impact, as in a crash, a chrome moly steel part is much more likely to
break rather than bend as would a mild steel part"
It goes on to describe the correct type of chrome moly to use (annealed)
, the welding process whith it's preheating and stress relieving steps
(need a oxyacetalene torch & something like a tempilstik crayon to
indicate correct temp).
4130 is only about 25% stronger than 1020HR - This book recommends
1020CR (better than 1020HR) for things like frame fabrication and 1020
Cold Formed seamless tubing for rollbars & what-not.
ok
ADHD Racing would like to thank
Mrs Bru @ Sunshine Coast Developmental Physiotherapy - www.scdphysio.com.au , Ryano @ Fourbys www.generaltire.com.au Blitzkrieg Motorsport
Mrs Bru @ Sunshine Coast Developmental Physiotherapy - www.scdphysio.com.au , Ryano @ Fourbys www.generaltire.com.au Blitzkrieg Motorsport
all the materials mentioned here have been used in bikes (pushies) over the last ten years and of all chromoly is by far the strongest. i have had alu mild steel and chromemoly frames and while the alu is light they tend to crack near the welds as for mild steel forget it it's soft (although this was a while ago) my curent frame is chromemoly and it's a little flexy but it's strong.
Matt
Matt
Road Ranger
CDS and CDW is what CAMS require, as said chromolly is very strong but first you must consider that the stronger somethin is he more brittle it will be, ie bizalloy, saf and other high grade steel alloys are verystrong and resistence to abbrasion is good BUT is environments where flex is common or required and shick loads are coomen then they are no good.
the second point with chromoly is that the welding procedures are much more complex as per Bru21's post you need to pre heat and the temps need to be very precise or the welds become no stronger and sometimes weaker than those on sandard mild steel cage and therefore defeating the purpse of usig it in the first place.
for those wanting a chromolly cage i ask why, is if for weight? a ful CAMS / CCDA approves 6 point will not add very much weight and is the saving worth more than double the price of a CDW cage?
Yes high speed motorsport where wieght and weight distribution is imperitive and engines lon cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cages comprise of much more bracing including all the side impact protection and addtional cross bracing in order to protect the driver in the event of 300kay and + impacts then yes chromoly can be the answer, but slow speed rolls and flops dont require that kind of protection meaning much simpler cages, simpler means less material required and there fore much less weight
the cages I supply are manafactured for me by a company who make cages for ralley cars, v8 supercars and the BMWs that the celebs race in the fomula 1 and when I asked about making cages in chromoly fo those who may be after trick / bling cages he flat out refused, his words were to the effect of they are a big wank and I dont care if I double the money I make on them, they cause more hassles then they are worth.
so whatever you do make sure you do your homework, think twice before attemting o make one from scratch your self, there is a reason why they are not cheap and remember that not every think the seppos do is the be all and end all
Tiny
the second point with chromoly is that the welding procedures are much more complex as per Bru21's post you need to pre heat and the temps need to be very precise or the welds become no stronger and sometimes weaker than those on sandard mild steel cage and therefore defeating the purpse of usig it in the first place.
for those wanting a chromolly cage i ask why, is if for weight? a ful CAMS / CCDA approves 6 point will not add very much weight and is the saving worth more than double the price of a CDW cage?
Yes high speed motorsport where wieght and weight distribution is imperitive and engines lon cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cages comprise of much more bracing including all the side impact protection and addtional cross bracing in order to protect the driver in the event of 300kay and + impacts then yes chromoly can be the answer, but slow speed rolls and flops dont require that kind of protection meaning much simpler cages, simpler means less material required and there fore much less weight
the cages I supply are manafactured for me by a company who make cages for ralley cars, v8 supercars and the BMWs that the celebs race in the fomula 1 and when I asked about making cages in chromoly fo those who may be after trick / bling cages he flat out refused, his words were to the effect of they are a big wank and I dont care if I double the money I make on them, they cause more hassles then they are worth.
so whatever you do make sure you do your homework, think twice before attemting o make one from scratch your self, there is a reason why they are not cheap and remember that not every think the seppos do is the be all and end all
Tiny
If the above post did not offend you in any way please PM me so I can try harder!!
[quote="bru21"]the question was a for roll cage for 4x4ing and cams approval. in the 4x4 industry how many are specialists that have the knowledge to tig weld chromoly to supercar standards. i know brent from wizard has worked with it a lot (and built some fine cages) but who else?
Anyone with reasonable tig skills can weld it, it’s easier to tig weld than steel.
cams don't like it as you can't visually inspect if the welds were stress releived, preheated etc.etc. it is not a product for backyarders.
Preheating is not required, it is a fallacy. The thinner section widths enable good heating transfer during welding. The only time we preheat is on thicker sections and when welding to 4140 material.
perhaps the single biggest issue is when people mig weld chromoly the weld is too cold and a stress line forms after the weld heat zone passes and the area behind cools too fast. tig is the best way (longer and more heat allowing the areas after the weld to cool slowely) as apart from utectic brazing which does little damage to the crystal structure of the parent metals.
All your talking about here is the “heat affected zoneâ€
Anyone with reasonable tig skills can weld it, it’s easier to tig weld than steel.
cams don't like it as you can't visually inspect if the welds were stress releived, preheated etc.etc. it is not a product for backyarders.
Preheating is not required, it is a fallacy. The thinner section widths enable good heating transfer during welding. The only time we preheat is on thicker sections and when welding to 4140 material.
perhaps the single biggest issue is when people mig weld chromoly the weld is too cold and a stress line forms after the weld heat zone passes and the area behind cools too fast. tig is the best way (longer and more heat allowing the areas after the weld to cool slowely) as apart from utectic brazing which does little damage to the crystal structure of the parent metals.
All your talking about here is the “heat affected zoneâ€
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
Tiny and Bru. I quite agree that if your just after a simple cage then CDW is the way to go but be careful, I can sell tube thats CDW but it's hydraulic tube and is effectively annealed soft but it fits CAMS criteria. The CDW we use is American and the moly we use it either American or German and that's it. We don't use any Chinese tubing which is coming on the market with little info supplied. Every length of tubing from the States is available with all paperwork regarding batch,content, heat treatment etc and is fully certifiable for aircraft use, the moly comes in Mil T spec for military use as well.Tiny wrote:CDS and CDW is what CAMS require, as said chromolly is very strong but first you must consider that the stronger somethin is he more brittle it will be, ie bizalloy, saf and other high grade steel alloys are verystrong and resistence to abbrasion is good BUT is environments where flex is common or required and shick loads are coomen then they are no good.
the second point with chromoly is that the welding procedures are much more complex as per Bru21's post you need to pre heat and the temps need to be very precise or the welds become no stronger and sometimes weaker than those on sandard mild steel cage and therefore defeating the purpse of usig it in the first place.
for those wanting a chromolly cage i ask why, is if for weight? a ful CAMS / CCDA approves 6 point will not add very much weight and is the saving worth more than double the price of a CDW cage?
Yes high speed motorsport where wieght and weight distribution is imperitive and engines lon cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and cages comprise of much more bracing including all the side impact protection and addtional cross bracing in order to protect the driver in the event of 300kay and + impacts then yes chromoly can be the answer, but slow speed rolls and flops dont require that kind of protection meaning much simpler cages, simpler means less material required and there fore much less weight
the cages I supply are manafactured for me by a company who make cages for ralley cars, v8 supercars and the BMWs that the celebs race in the fomula 1 and when I asked about making cages in chromoly fo those who may be after trick / bling cages he flat out refused, his words were to the effect of they are a big wank and I dont care if I double the money I make on them, they cause more hassles then they are worth.
so whatever you do make sure you do your homework, think twice before attemting o make one from scratch your self, there is a reason why they are not cheap and remember that not every think the seppos do is the be all and end all
Tiny
Do your homework and find out just what tube is being used.
The only reason I posted on this subject is a blanket assertion being made about how unsuitable moly is and crushes like a coke can can't be used by supercars when I know it's very suitable.
As I said previously, we use this stuff every day and deal with companies like Perkins, HRT, FPR, Britek, Garry Rogers etc. We only sell them small amounts as they are buying from the same places we do but we know what these guys are using and why.
Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
Also on a different subject than materials, I think your biggest mistake as a group is getting involved with CAMS. In the motor racing industry as a whole they are know as C##ts Against Motorsport. You would have been far better off looking at how the Speedway industry has evolved, it 's totally separate and has nothing to do with CAMS at all. As an example, we do work on a GTP racing Falcon who was running with the supercars at Oran Park this weekend and it going to cost him over $12 K to race there with no prize money whatsoever. Compare a sprintcar, maybe a $150 entry fee, if you win a round of the "world series" that's 10K to win, The Classic is $25K to win, The Aus title $20K and Parramatta has the $50K to win race early in the year as well. Just a normal round of the state series is $2 K to win.
CAMS is so top heavy it's ridiculous and the poor racer is getting screwed big time.
Regards Andrew.
CAMS is so top heavy it's ridiculous and the poor racer is getting screwed big time.
Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
i agree with youawill4x4 wrote:Also on a different subject than materials, I think your biggest mistake as a group is getting involved with CAMS. In the motor racing industry as a whole they are know as C##ts Against Motorsport. You would have been far better off looking at how the Speedway industry has evolved, it 's totally separate and has nothing to do with CAMS at all. As an example, we do work on a GTP racing Falcon who was running with the supercars at Oran Park this weekend and it going to cost him over $12 K to race there with no prize money whatsoever. Compare a sprintcar, maybe a $150 entry fee, if you win a round of the "world series" that's 10K to win, The Classic is $25K to win, The Aus title $20K and Parramatta has the $50K to win race early in the year as well. Just a normal round of the state series is $2 K to win.
CAMS is so top heavy it's ridiculous and the poor racer is getting screwed big time.
Regards Andrew.
Reptile fabrication.
www.agroautomotive.net
www.agroautomotive.net
Sorry guys, we don't do cages for fourbies or road cars we are shiat scared of someone doing something stupid getting hurt and their family coming back to sue our @rses off. What we have done in the past is for a customer to give us some tube bending dimensions and we have bent the tube to their requirements and they have done the rest themselves.
I hate crawing around inside cars upside down and trying to weld a tube in position with 3/5ths of f@ckall room to move
. On the Dodge Viper we work on, I got stuck a few weeks ago and had to yell to Greg (the owner) to get me out. That's why I like welding the sprintcar chassis', you can get to everything relatively easily. 
Regards Andrew.
I hate crawing around inside cars upside down and trying to weld a tube in position with 3/5ths of f@ckall room to move
. On the Dodge Viper we work on, I got stuck a few weeks ago and had to yell to Greg (the owner) to get me out. That's why I like welding the sprintcar chassis', you can get to everything relatively easily. Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
Road Ranger
[quote="awill4x4"]
I hate crawing around inside cars upside down and trying to weld a tube in position with 3/5ths of f@ckall room to move quote]
Aint that the truth......I bend the kits and prefer to get the customer to install, takes a long time so the cost goes through the roof for installs
I hate crawing around inside cars upside down and trying to weld a tube in position with 3/5ths of f@ckall room to move quote]
Aint that the truth......I bend the kits and prefer to get the customer to install, takes a long time so the cost goes through the roof for installs
If the above post did not offend you in any way please PM me so I can try harder!!
Your dead right there Tiny. It's amazing just how long things can take when it's a little unusual. My pet hate is bending a tube that has 2 or more compound bends but bending if different planes so you have to do a bend then rotate the tube X degrees in the tube bender for the next bend and then remember the tube on the opposite side of the car must be a mirror image of what you've done 1st. In all this I've got to keep in the back of my mind that I'm working with Chrome/Moly and can't afford a f@ckup. Geez, I'm glad it's not Titanium I'm bending.Tiny wrote: Aint that the truth......I bend the kits and prefer to get the customer to install, takes a long time so the cost goes through the roof for installs
Actually we've got some Titanium 3/4" (19mm) by .035" (.88mm) thick tubing we ended up with at work I'm still trying to figure out some sort of project I can use it for. It's pretty thin but I think I can weld it without too many problems.
Anyone got any ideas what I can build with it?
Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/smilies/weld.gif[/img]
Worlds lightest roof rack, or mega light storage system framework ??awill4x4 wrote:
Actually we've got some Titanium 3/4" (19mm) by .035" (.88mm) thick tubing we ended up with at work I'm still trying to figure out some sort of project I can use it for. It's pretty thin but I think I can weld it without too many problems.
Anyone got any ideas what I can build with it?
Regards Andrew.
Mate you would love some of the titanium pipework on the turbines i work on, bends and shaping that leave me shaking my head, not small either, 3, 4, 6 inch etc.
Actually i know some boys that might be up for a custom downhill mtb frame out of that tube if the price was right
cheers Brad
This informations comes directly from the steel manufacturer so it is minus all the bullshit and heresay!!!
People should probably follow manufacturers recomendations unless they are asking for trouble.
There is also more information on other types of steel that can easily be used in 4wd's and has none of the dramas involved.
LOOK HERE http://www.interlloy.com.au/
4140 High Tensile Steel Hollow Bar
4140 is a 1% chromium - molybdenum medium hardenability general purpose high tensile steel - generally supplied hardened and tempered in the tensile range of 860 - 1130 Mpa. Brinell hardness range 265 - 330 (Rc 28 - 36).
Characterised by high strength and good impact properties with good machinability, but low weldability.
Pre hardened and tempered 4140 can be further surface hardened by flame or induction hardening and by nitriding.
4140 is used extensively in most industry sectors for a wide range of applications utilising it's considerable savings on weight and machining time over solid bar.
Typical applications are: Bearings, Bushes, Cylinders (Various), Gears, Conveyor Rolls, Hydraulic Shafts, Hollow Shafts, Hollow Parts (Various), Nuts and Rings.
Colour Code
Dark Blue
(Bar end)
Stocked Sizes Hollow Bar 56 mm to 250 mm OD
Bar Finish Cold Rolled
Hot Rolled
Related Specifications
Germany DIN 17212 W.Nr 1.7223 Type 41CrMo4
DIN 17200-1654 W.Nr 1.7225 Type 42CrMo4
Japan JIS G 3441 SCM 440 TK
USA AISI 4140
ASTM A519-96 4140
SAE 4140 UNS G 41400
Chemical Composition Min.% Max.%
Carbon 0.38 0.43
Silicon 0.15 0.04
Manganese 0.75 1.00
Chromium 0.80 1.10
Molybdenum 0.15 0.25
Phosphorous 0 0.04
Sulphur 0 0.015
Mechanical Property Requirements for 4140 Hollow Bar As Supplied,
Black Hot Rolled Finish - Hardened and Tempered Condition
Tensile
Strength
Mpa
(Min) Yield
Strength
Mpa
Min Elongation on
%
Min. Hardness
Rc
Min. Max
862 758 14 28 36
Typical Mechanical Properties for 4140 Hollow Bar As Supplied,
Black Hot Rolled Finish - Hardened and Tempered Condition
Tensile
Strength
Mpa Yield
Strength
Mpa
Elongation on
%
Min. Hardness
HB Rc
1000 900 16 300 33
Forging
Heat to 1150 oC - 1200 oC maximum, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section.
Do not forge below 850 oC.
Following forging operation the work piece should be cooled as slowly as possible.
Heat Treatment
Annealing
Heat to 800 oC - 850 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section and cool in furnace.
Flame or Induction Hardening
4140 hardened and tempered bar can be further surface hardened by either the flame or induction hardening methods resulting in a case hardness in excess of Rc 50.
The black hot rolled surface will first require to be machined sufficiently to remove any decarburised layer otherwise less than satisfactory results will be obtained.
Parts should be heated as quickly as possible to the austenitic temperature range (840 oC - 870 oC) and required case depth followed by an immediate oil or water quench, depending upon hardness required, workpiece size/shape and quenching arrangements.
Following quenching to hand warm, most components should be stress relieved to remove quenching stresses in the case.
Hardening
Heat to 840 oC - 875 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 10 - 15 minutes per 25 mm section, and quench in oil, water, or polymer as required.
*Temper immediately while still hand warm.
Nitriding
4140 hardened and tempered bar can also be successfully nitrided, giving a surface hardness of up to Rc 60. Nitriding is carried out at 490 oC - 530 oC, followed by slow cooling (no quench) reducing the problem of distortion. Parts can therefore be machined to near final size, leaving a grinding allowance only. The tensile strength of the core is usually not affected since the nitriding temperature range is generally below the original tempering temperature employed.
Normalizing
Heat to 870 oC - 900 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 10 - 15 minutes and cool in still air.
Stress Relieving
Heat to 680 oC - 700 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 1 hour per 25 mm section, and cool in still air.
Tempering
Re-heat to 550 oC - 700 oC as required, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 1 hour per 25 mm of section, and cool in still air.
Note
Heating temperatures, rate of heating and soaking times will vary due to factors such as work piece size/shape also furnace type employed, quenching medium and work piece transfer facilities etc..
Please consult your heat treater for best results.
Machining
4140 in the hardened and tempered as supplied condition has good to very good machinability and operations such as sawing, turning, drilling, broaching, hobbing, milling and tapping can be carried out satisfactoraly using machine manufacturers recommendations for suitable tool type - feeds and speeds.
Welding
Welding of 4140 in the hardened and tempered condition (as normally supplied), is not recommended and should be avoided if at all possible, as the mechanical properties will be altered within the weld heat affected zone. It is preferred that welding be carried out on 4140 while in the annealed condition, and that the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, is then stress relieved at 595 oC - 620 oC prior to hardening and tempering.
If welding in the hardened and tempered condition is really necessary, then the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, should be if possible stress relieved at 15 oC below the original tempering temperature (if known).
Welding Procedure
Welding of 4140 in whatever condition should always be carried out using low hydrogen electrodes - please consult your welding consumables supplier.
Suggested pre-heat temperature
Section oC
25 mm 370
40 mm 400
50 mm 425
75 mm 455
150 mm + 510
Post Welding
Maximum cooling rate 95 oC per hour down to 95 oC, follow by cooling in still air. N.B. No draught. It is recommended that the work piece if possible is wrapped in an heat resistant blanket or buried in sand etc..
Interlloy believes the information provided is accurate and reliable. However no warranty of accuracy, completeness or reliability is given, nor will any responsibility be taken for errors or omissions.
People should probably follow manufacturers recomendations unless they are asking for trouble.
There is also more information on other types of steel that can easily be used in 4wd's and has none of the dramas involved.
LOOK HERE http://www.interlloy.com.au/
4140 High Tensile Steel Hollow Bar
4140 is a 1% chromium - molybdenum medium hardenability general purpose high tensile steel - generally supplied hardened and tempered in the tensile range of 860 - 1130 Mpa. Brinell hardness range 265 - 330 (Rc 28 - 36).
Characterised by high strength and good impact properties with good machinability, but low weldability.
Pre hardened and tempered 4140 can be further surface hardened by flame or induction hardening and by nitriding.
4140 is used extensively in most industry sectors for a wide range of applications utilising it's considerable savings on weight and machining time over solid bar.
Typical applications are: Bearings, Bushes, Cylinders (Various), Gears, Conveyor Rolls, Hydraulic Shafts, Hollow Shafts, Hollow Parts (Various), Nuts and Rings.
Colour Code
Dark Blue
(Bar end)
Stocked Sizes Hollow Bar 56 mm to 250 mm OD
Bar Finish Cold Rolled
Hot Rolled
Related Specifications
Germany DIN 17212 W.Nr 1.7223 Type 41CrMo4
DIN 17200-1654 W.Nr 1.7225 Type 42CrMo4
Japan JIS G 3441 SCM 440 TK
USA AISI 4140
ASTM A519-96 4140
SAE 4140 UNS G 41400
Chemical Composition Min.% Max.%
Carbon 0.38 0.43
Silicon 0.15 0.04
Manganese 0.75 1.00
Chromium 0.80 1.10
Molybdenum 0.15 0.25
Phosphorous 0 0.04
Sulphur 0 0.015
Mechanical Property Requirements for 4140 Hollow Bar As Supplied,
Black Hot Rolled Finish - Hardened and Tempered Condition
Tensile
Strength
Mpa
(Min) Yield
Strength
Mpa
Min Elongation on
%
Min. Hardness
Rc
Min. Max
862 758 14 28 36
Typical Mechanical Properties for 4140 Hollow Bar As Supplied,
Black Hot Rolled Finish - Hardened and Tempered Condition
Tensile
Strength
Mpa Yield
Strength
Mpa
Elongation on
%
Min. Hardness
HB Rc
1000 900 16 300 33
Forging
Heat to 1150 oC - 1200 oC maximum, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section.
Do not forge below 850 oC.
Following forging operation the work piece should be cooled as slowly as possible.
Heat Treatment
Annealing
Heat to 800 oC - 850 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section and cool in furnace.
Flame or Induction Hardening
4140 hardened and tempered bar can be further surface hardened by either the flame or induction hardening methods resulting in a case hardness in excess of Rc 50.
The black hot rolled surface will first require to be machined sufficiently to remove any decarburised layer otherwise less than satisfactory results will be obtained.
Parts should be heated as quickly as possible to the austenitic temperature range (840 oC - 870 oC) and required case depth followed by an immediate oil or water quench, depending upon hardness required, workpiece size/shape and quenching arrangements.
Following quenching to hand warm, most components should be stress relieved to remove quenching stresses in the case.
Hardening
Heat to 840 oC - 875 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 10 - 15 minutes per 25 mm section, and quench in oil, water, or polymer as required.
*Temper immediately while still hand warm.
Nitriding
4140 hardened and tempered bar can also be successfully nitrided, giving a surface hardness of up to Rc 60. Nitriding is carried out at 490 oC - 530 oC, followed by slow cooling (no quench) reducing the problem of distortion. Parts can therefore be machined to near final size, leaving a grinding allowance only. The tensile strength of the core is usually not affected since the nitriding temperature range is generally below the original tempering temperature employed.
Normalizing
Heat to 870 oC - 900 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 10 - 15 minutes and cool in still air.
Stress Relieving
Heat to 680 oC - 700 oC, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 1 hour per 25 mm section, and cool in still air.
Tempering
Re-heat to 550 oC - 700 oC as required, hold until temperature is uniform throughout the section, soak for 1 hour per 25 mm of section, and cool in still air.
Note
Heating temperatures, rate of heating and soaking times will vary due to factors such as work piece size/shape also furnace type employed, quenching medium and work piece transfer facilities etc..
Please consult your heat treater for best results.
Machining
4140 in the hardened and tempered as supplied condition has good to very good machinability and operations such as sawing, turning, drilling, broaching, hobbing, milling and tapping can be carried out satisfactoraly using machine manufacturers recommendations for suitable tool type - feeds and speeds.
Welding
Welding of 4140 in the hardened and tempered condition (as normally supplied), is not recommended and should be avoided if at all possible, as the mechanical properties will be altered within the weld heat affected zone. It is preferred that welding be carried out on 4140 while in the annealed condition, and that the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, is then stress relieved at 595 oC - 620 oC prior to hardening and tempering.
If welding in the hardened and tempered condition is really necessary, then the work piece, immediately on cooling to hand warm, should be if possible stress relieved at 15 oC below the original tempering temperature (if known).
Welding Procedure
Welding of 4140 in whatever condition should always be carried out using low hydrogen electrodes - please consult your welding consumables supplier.
Suggested pre-heat temperature
Section oC
25 mm 370
40 mm 400
50 mm 425
75 mm 455
150 mm + 510
Post Welding
Maximum cooling rate 95 oC per hour down to 95 oC, follow by cooling in still air. N.B. No draught. It is recommended that the work piece if possible is wrapped in an heat resistant blanket or buried in sand etc..
Interlloy believes the information provided is accurate and reliable. However no warranty of accuracy, completeness or reliability is given, nor will any responsibility be taken for errors or omissions.
We use 4140 bushes for the sprintcar axle eyes with excellent results. We also us it for left and right hand threaded ends for racing drag links as the previous supplier would only supply us with bright steel ones and we had endless cracking problems with the excessive sulphur content.
Regards Andrew.
Regards Andrew.
We are Tig welders, gravity doesn't worry us.
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