OZ Rock minimum weight requirement

[Strange Rover]

i've only looked at the supermods document. looks same as the werock one right?

Its about the same, the weight rule is gone, and a few safty things have changed(compolsery wrist restraints or window nets) and stuff on stickers and stuff.

Modified class is quite different to Legands class allaaaa WE rock.
too much to list, its all in there though


Mock

I would think carefully about dropping the minimum weight rule cause the last thing you want is sombody turning up in something like this with a spotter that weighs about the same. With the rules the way they are the only thing that stops something like this entering is the minimum weight. The minimum weight forces everybody to use proper 4wd components as opposed to quad bike components.

You wouldnt be able to beat it and it wouldnt be much fun watching them get dragged around a course.

Although if you thought about it you would probably be able to make one of these perform like crazy and would be bloody cheap too to make as well.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

must be automotive based

Mock

[RUFF]

must be automotive based

Mock

au·to·mo·tive-

1-Moving by itself; self-propelling or self-propelled.
2-Of or relating to self-propelled vehicles.

Seams Automotive Based to me

Im not starting an argument but this is what your going to be faced with if you dont set a Min Weight or define your rules more. If someone turns up with a similar vehicle to these events as the rules are written now i cant see you arguing against their case.

Its better the rules are sorted sooner than later.

[Strange Rover]

must be automotive based

Mock

These sorts of issues have been debated to death on pirate and the uroc forums and even more so through the competitors round table at the beginninr of last year. They have very good reasons behind why they have the rules as they are.

As I said before - the easiest way to ensure things remain automotive based is to have the minimum weight restriction - thats why they have this rule.

Without a minimum weight sombody is going to turn up in something that nobody who is involved in the 4wd game will want to pay money to go see cause it will not be 4wd related and its going to kick arse simply because its light and a spotter can drag it around a course. There are some very, very light automotive components in vehicles these days and you wouldnt end up with much more than what I posted above.

For the record that vehicle weighs 70kg and fits a full sized adult. Two blokes could drag that thing anywhere - and on the steep downhill ledges....easy just push if off the ledge and put it back on its wheels once it lands at the bottom - a proper 4wd based rig would have no chance against them.

Why have you dropped the weight requirement? What are you trying to achieve? Im guessing you are wanting to allow lighter rigs to be competitive (like suzuki based machines) - if this is what you are wanting to do then just reduce the minimum weight a bit (although this will still cause other issues)

I wouldnt drop it all together cause you are just opening up a can of worms and if people start turning up in things that you dont expect them to that totally kicks arse it going to be really hard to get rid of them. But like I said these sort of arguments have been gone over years ago by lots of very clever people (both promoters and competitors) when these rules were first created.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

Point taken BUT, having a 1000kg rules out building a buggy with a small engine, and smallish diffs, Australia is not the land of the the dana 44/60/70, what do we have hmmm, suzuki's, hiluxes, ok patrols are big.
It would be nice to make this sport accessable to people.
what if you had a 37inch tyre size minnimum for super modified, Would like to see that lawnmower with 37's


Mock

[ljxtreem]

must be automotive based

Mock

These sorts of issues have been debated to death on pirate and the uroc forums and even more so through the competitors round table at the beginninr of last year. They have very good reasons behind why they have the rules as they are.

As I said before - the easiest way to ensure things remain automotive based is to have the minimum weight restriction - thats why they have this rule.

Without a minimum weight sombody is going to turn up in something that nobody who is involved in the 4wd game will want to pay money to go see cause it will not be 4wd related and its going to kick arse simply because its light and a spotter can drag it around a course. There are some very, very light automotive components in vehicles these days and you wouldnt end up with much more than what I posted above.

For the record that vehicle weighs 70kg and fits a full sized adult. Two blokes could drag that thing anywhere - and on the steep downhill ledges....easy just push if off the ledge and put it back on its wheels once it lands at the bottom - a proper 4wd based rig would have no chance against them.

Why have you dropped the weight requirement? What are you trying to achieve? Im guessing you are wanting to allow lighter rigs to be competitive (like suzuki based machines) - if this is what you are wanting to do then just reduce the minimum weight a bit (although this will still cause other issues)

I wouldnt drop it all together cause you are just opening up a can of worms and if people start turning up in things that you dont expect them to that totally kicks arse it going to be really hard to get rid of them. But like I said these sort of arguments have been gone over years ago by lots of very clever people (both promoters and competitors) when these rules were first created.

Sam

Why the interest are u guys comming down to compete

Are U scared Im going to beat u with my 4 wheel motor bike

Mock

[45punkbus]

Are U scared Im going to beat u with my 4 wheel motor bike

so who will be driving your buggy

pick me! pick me!

[greg]

As I said before - the easiest way to ensure things remain automotive based is to have the minimum weight restriction - thats why they have this rule.

Without a minimum weight sombody is going to turn up in something that nobody who is involved in the 4wd game will want to pay money to go see cause it will not be 4wd related and its going to kick arse simply because its light and a spotter can drag it around a course. There are some very, very light automotive components in vehicles these days and you wouldnt end up with much more than what I posted above.

For the record that vehicle weighs 70kg and fits a full sized adult. Two blokes could drag that thing anywhere - and on the steep downhill ledges....easy just push if off the ledge and put it back on its wheels once it lands at the bottom - a proper 4wd based rig would have no chance against them.

Why have you dropped the weight requirement? What are you trying to achieve? Im guessing you are wanting to allow lighter rigs to be competitive (like suzuki based machines) - if this is what you are wanting to do then just reduce the minimum weight a bit (although this will still cause other issues)

I wouldnt drop it all together cause you are just opening up a can of worms and if people start turning up in things that you dont expect them to that totally kicks arse it going to be really hard to get rid of them. But like I said these sort of arguments have been gone over years ago by lots of very clever people (both promoters and competitors) when these rules were first created.

Sam

Perhaps a somewhat solution to this issue is to remove the spotters from the event - or stop them from touching the vehicle.. i realise it goes against the whole rock-crawling event style internationally, but it would ensure that the car has to be driven.

hehe - i just thuoght of it another way - perhaps the minimum weight is required, otherwise i could turn up with my remote controlled car (weighing in at all of 3kg), pick it up, and then walk the track with it in my hand and still win

[sierrajim]

Being that a vehicle requires a seat and 4 point harness that the driver needs to be secured to pretty much rules out the RC car.

You would also need an engine, transfer case, diffs and tyres attached to your feet.

All in all if someone wants to build an offroad go cart and have their spotter drag it up a rock face with the weight of the driver, go ahead.

[Big Rich]

Spotters are part of the competition for 2 reasons, they can be seen by the crowd, and because of the side hills we put them on, they are needed.

A minimum weight requirement is important here in the colonies, because the tech is becoming so advanced that guys can build rigs that climb like ants ands weigh in at under 1500lbs of ? kilos

Plan for the future when designing the rules, otherwise you'll be fighting the same problems we have been having each year.

Rich

[sierrajim]

Spotters are part of the competition for 2 reasons, they can be seen by the crowd, and because of the side hills we put them on, they are needed.

A minimum weight requirement is important here in the colonies, because the tech is becoming so advanced that guys can build rigs that climb like ants ands weigh in at under 1500lbs of ? kilos

Plan for the future when designing the rules, otherwise you'll be fighting the same problems we have been having each year.

Rich

2.25lbs per kilo.

What's wrong with people having a light weight rig that is capable? Isn't that why you build a buggy? to make it as capable for that particular application as possible?

If the safety requirements and other rules are met, whats the problem?

I do understand that rules have to be specific, sometimes they are so loosely written thatthey are open to interpretation. eg. 100% locking differentails, this could mean that traction control could not be used in WEROCK or OZROCK

Note: I am not trying to start an arguement here just interested in why.

[Strange Rover]

What's wrong with people having a light weight rig that is capable? Isn't that why you build a buggy? to make it as capable for that particular application as possible?

If the safety requirements and other rules are met, whats the problem?

Im guessing what Rich is getting at is that removing the weight restriction doesent make a suzuki based buggy competitive. What it makes competitive are the people who can afford all the latest high tech gear to build an ultra light weight rig. It means that the people who dont have the money to buy all the top dollar gear carnt be competitive.

Having a decent weight restriction means vehicles remain 4wd based and lets the average punter build a competitive machine with basic components.

The reason I am arguing this point is that I want this series to work (in the long term) and I will compete in it (I carnt compete in WE Rock Australia)

The no weight restriction may work great for this next event and probably for next year as well but if this series is successfull then in a few years time you are going to see machines built to the edge of what the rules allow and they wont be using 4wd parts. Once this happens you wont be able to get rid of them without a major backflip.

Without a weight restriction you are going to end up with go carts and you wont be able to beat them.

Sam

[bad_religion_au]

What's wrong with people having a light weight rig that is capable? Isn't that why you build a buggy? to make it as capable for that particular application as possible?

If the safety requirements and other rules are met, whats the problem?

Im guessing what Rich is getting at is that removing the weight restriction doesent make a suzuki based buggy competitive. What it makes competitive are the people who can afford all the latest high tech gear to build an ultra light weight rig. It means that the people who dont have the money to buy all the top dollar gear carnt be competitive.

Having a decent weight restriction means vehicles remain 4wd based and lets the average punter build a competitive machine with basic components.

The reason I am arguing this point is that I want this series to work (in the long term) and I will compete in it (I carnt compete in WE Rock Australia)

The no weight restriction may work great for this next event and probably for next year as well but if this series is successfull then in a few years time you are going to see machines built to the edge of what the rules allow and they wont be using 4wd parts. Once this happens you wont be able to get rid of them without a major backflip.

Without a weight restriction you are going to end up with go carts and you wont be able to beat them.

Sam

just interest in why you can't beat gocarts? i'm not a champion rock crawler or anything so it may be ignorance on my part... but antunec's big yellow tubby cruiser faired ok vs the lighter buggies... i know it'd struggle once the moon buggies come onto song, but then again it is a semi-full bodied rig... can't see why a moon buggy or some such would struggle against something using motorbike components.

[redzook]

just interest in why you can't beat gocarts? i'm not a champion rock crawler or anything so it may be ignorance on my part... but antunec's big yellow tubby cruiser faired ok vs the lighter buggies... i know it'd struggle once the moon buggies come onto song, but then again it is a semi-full bodied rig... can't see why a moon buggy or some such would struggle against something using motorbike components.

if you build a buggy under 100kg wich is what that buggy is up there^

if u had a big spotter he would be able to pull u up most climbs

yeh you can pull on a moon buggy and help it a bit but would be nothing compared to a lil go kart

[Strange Rover]

just interest in why you can't beat gocarts? i'm not a champion rock crawler or anything so it may be ignorance on my part... but antunec's big yellow tubby cruiser faired ok vs the lighter buggies... i know it'd struggle once the moon buggies come onto song, but then again it is a semi-full bodied rig... can't see why a moon buggy or some such would struggle against something using motorbike components.

A person walking on foot is more capable than a rock buggy. The only thing that makes this whole sport worthwile is that the vehicles have to have a minimum weight. Once you have a mimimum weight then you build a buggy to handle that weight and that brings on all the complications of what it takes to build a capable vehicle that is heavy. If you dont have to carry any weight - whats the point - you may as well just walk.

The US example shows that the lightest buggies are the best. Imagine if you showed up in a buggy that weighed only 50kg - what would happen then?

Sam

[Cheezy4x4]

Yep Im hearing you all and agree all round. Please no shooting me down in flames as I am only trying too make some OZ rules that make it fair for all too compete. We in Vic have alot of Suzi based rigs The Suzi people argue that a suzi can be 900kg in standard road rego form so its not fair that a standard rig should have too add weight too compete.
OK please submit too this rule so all will be happy.
How do I allow a light weight vehicle (no bikes or gocarts) too compete.
I think people should be real about this as we all know what a buggy is and people will try and push the friendship but just remember, You still have too get through scrutineering and I WILL KNOT PUT UP WITH BS.
We are all adults here and we are not playing for cattle stations but FUN.
I estimate that some of the yank rigs are under the 1000 so do we ask for a weighbridge ticket Where do we set the weight How do we word it too police it And how do we enforce it
I hear what people are saying, but this isnt a yank event, but we do tend too follow them. This is OZ Rock so lets stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions.
OK post up.

[sierrajim]

I think 600-700kg would rule out ride on lawn mowers, RC cars and go carts.

This would also allow people to build "stripped" zook based buggies.

[turps]

Its easy to do the weight test. Just during srcutineering and any time it is belived neccessary. Weigh them. With the amount of money involved I dont think a set of electronic scales are out of the question. You dont need a full weigh bridge. Just a set of pads you put on the ground and drive the car onto them. Thats pretty much what VICRoads do these days.

Bit like in motor racing the cars are all checked before they can compete. Then at the end of the race the top 5 are rechecked to make sure no one is cheating.

[Strange Rover]

I think 600-700kg would rule out ride on lawn mowers, RC cars and go carts.

This would also allow people to build "stripped" zook based buggies.

Yep - something like this. And you will probably never have to weigh a rig anyway unless somebody protests - so just sort it out then.

Sam

[bad_religion_au]

but if you had a light zook, you could add the weight to perfect your weight balance.

just an idea, and an advantage for getting low on weight

[POS]

I estimate that some of the yank rigs are under the 1000:

How do you estimate something like that?

The rigs in the US get weighed, Tiny was picked up last year sometime for been a touch under and he had to fix it.

[POS]

.
I think people should be real about this as we all know what a buggy is and people will try and push the friendship but just remember, You still have too get through scrutineering and I WILL KNOT PUT UP WITH BS.

Thats all well and good -

BUT

If johnny has a "Zuk based" buggy that looks like it weighs around 550kgs at the first round whats stopping Timmy building one that weighs 500kgs and competing in the next round, then what stops mickey building one that weighs 390kgs two rounds later, i am sure you can see the trend i am trying to set here.

You can't pull them up for it as you have no grounds to support your rejection when someone presents a 280kg Chromoly buggy, full custom alumium diff housings, alumium diff cariers, gun drilled chromo axles and finished off nicly with a plastic suzuki hood on it.

Also one thing to note Cheezy, no one is having a go at you. If you want to run those rules to suit a particular few then go for it. It doesn't worry me. I just can't work out why people have to Re-invent the wheel. The yanks have run with a set weight for years now (in both of the major events and many minor events) and it works great. Yes i know we are not the Yanks, but if it works why change it.

At the end of the day Cheezy its your event and you can do what you want, run with what you want and see how it goes.

[bru21]

i recon the major driveline components such as engine, gearbox, transfer must be available in australia and have been registered under full registration (ie not tractor) in their previous vehicles and must have low range. no cromoly, titanimum, magnesium etc (or rather define whats allowed to stop ambiguity)

to be honest i think things like atlas transfers, aftermarket diffs rrp >$5000, and comp spec tyres should be banned or attract penalty points. the survival of this sport depends on it. eg is the only one using comp spec tyres having a competitive advantage or cheating? (no offence at all to anyone, just looking at it from a wider perspective)

look at the obc. when i planned my truck specs i thought i could have a few years of competition at little further expense and be competitive (vehicle wise at least). it shits me to see winches that cost >5k become comonplace, 15k motor work not even raise eyebrows but be the norm. the event started out to be about human endurance and design strength with the focus on driver ability, skill, knowledge. now those with spare cash to build 6 figure trucks mean those that don't suffer a huge disadvantage.

i realise the object of competition is to raise the bar but well thought out constraints keep it fun as you can keep your head above water.

the more constraints the better. look at aussie race cars growth

cheers bru

[Big Rich]

The reason for the weight limit is for safety, the guys are lookig for ways to cut corners and that could lead to a safety issue...

Rich

[bogged]

i recon the major driveline components such as engine, gearbox, transfer must be available in australia and have been registered under full registration (ie not tractor) in their previous vehicles and must have low range. no cromoly, titanimum, magnesium etc (or rather define whats allowed to stop ambiguity)

to be honest i think things like atlas transfers, aftermarket diffs rrp >$5000, and comp spec tyres should be banned or attract penalty points. the survival of this sport depends on it. eg is the only one using comp spec tyres having a competitive advantage or cheating? (no offence at all to anyone, just looking at it from a wider perspective)

look at the obc. when i planned my truck specs i thought i could have a few years of competition at little further expense and be competitive (vehicle wise at least). it shits me to see winches that cost >5k become comonplace, 15k motor work not even raise eyebrows but be the norm. the event started out to be about human endurance and design strength with the focus on driver ability, skill, knowledge. now those with spare cash to build 6 figure trucks mean those that don't suffer a huge disadvantage.

i realise the object of competition is to raise the bar but well thought out constraints keep it fun as you can keep your head above water.

the more constraints the better. look at aussie race cars growth

cheers bru

well said, I also agree with what POS said
... no grounds to support your rejection when someone presents a 280kg Chromoly buggy, full custom alumium diff housings, alumium diff cariers, gun drilled chromo axles and finished off nicly with a plastic suzuki hood on it.

What sort of bucks would that set ya back, and out of a small field how many could afford to go down that road?
If you want it to get bigger, make it more accessable to all.


I've seen it happen in bike racing, Advanced Proddy, and later Superstreet started off with basic mods, then can we change this, change that... and in the end, it got out of control.

It happens in all forms of motor sport, starts off cheap, then people get serious, and it ends up being those with largest wallets, or spare cash, or even more - better contacts end up competitive - the rest make up the #s

[greg]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

as for the comments about "but the cars drive on steep side angles and would roll without a teather" - isn't that the whole point. if the rig is low with a low CoG, it will still drive these side angles, otherwise it will roll. if this is a problem, then we know that the courses won't need to be as hard won't we. problem solved.

as for the people with the most money building the best technology and winning all the races - this is true of any and all sports - not just motor sport. it's how the world works. example: the country that spends the most money on their junior cricket will have the best cricket team in the world etc...

however, again, if you remove the ability for the spotter to touch the cars / help the cars, at least these very expensive buggies will have some very cool driving to do to get to the finish line.

if people still want to be able to compete against these super expensive cars, then the way to do that is to setup and run your classes appropriately. this will mean that cheap cars can compete against cheap cars, and fancy cars against the fancy cars... this would be no different to any other motor sport, or any other sport in general (i.e. different classes for boxing etc).

just my 2c.

[bogged]

if people still want to be able to compete against these super expensive cars, then the way to do that is to setup and run your classes appropriately. this will mean that cheap cars can compete against cheap cars, and fancy cars against the fancy cars... this would be no different to any other motor sport, or any other sport in general (i.e. different classes for boxing etc).

Are there enough #'s to run say Entry Level, Advanced, Expert classes? You dont want 3 cars running in one class.

but good idea.

[45punkbus]

my suggestion is that the driver has to stay in the rig, and, we either remove the spotter all together and make it all about the driver... or, we ban the spotter from touching the vehicle (this would include teathering)... doing this will mean that the vehicle can only progress on the track using its own traction.

I can see where your coming from here, but from a new spectators point of veiw on this sport, i enjoy watching teams sit there smoking there expensive tread while the spotter holds the strap and rocks it back and forth making the obsticals that i originally viewed as impossible, possible.

I know spectators are not the major concern here but we are a part of this sport,

i believe also banning the spotter from touching the car is not as benifical for example at WE rock round 2 i don't believe N.A.M. would have been able to flip his buggy back to its wheel by himself there for he would not have been able to complete the stage, and roll overs are apart of rock crawling...

just my few cents worth

[sierrajim]

or a points system based on weight could be introduced to complicate things even further

[DamTriton]

i recon the major driveline components such as engine, gearbox, transfer must be available in australia and have been registered under full registration (ie not tractor) in their previous vehicles and must have low range. no cromoly, titanimum, magnesium etc (or rather define whats allowed to stop ambiguity)

to be honest i think things like atlas transfers, aftermarket diffs rrp >$5000, and comp spec tyres should be banned or attract penalty points. the survival of this sport depends on it. eg is the only one using comp spec tyres having a competitive advantage or cheating? (no offence at all to anyone, just looking at it from a wider perspective)

look at the obc. when i planned my truck specs i thought i could have a few years of competition at little further expense and be competitive (vehicle wise at least). it shits me to see winches that cost >5k become comonplace, 15k motor work not even raise eyebrows but be the norm. the event started out to be about human endurance and design strength with the focus on driver ability, skill, knowledge. now those with spare cash to build 6 figure trucks mean those that don't suffer a huge disadvantage.

i realise the object of competition is to raise the bar but well thought out constraints keep it fun as you can keep your head above water.

the more constraints the better. look at aussie race cars growth

cheers bru

1. Atlas gives you about the same ratio as a Lux Tcase with Marks gears. No real competitive advantage.

2. What about Zooks with Hilux/MQ diffs? What about Jeeps with upgraded internals? GQ Patrols with GU diffs, or for that matter any other hybrids?

Too hard to define/regulate for what may be a very small number of vehicles. Would be better to include a "Within the spirit of the rules" disclaimer to discourage a "building through the loopholes" attitude.