nightowl family weekend October 1&2

[bazooked]

you would have to have a limit on tyre sizes to make it fair for evryone, say a 36" tops.

[CrazyNuts]

I've actually come up with a system that i think works very well. I've sent this onto Alan but i got no reply from him or any thoughts that he may have. Anyway...it hought i'd share it with you guys

This model works on the fact that there are 3 main deciding factors of a vehicle’s off-road capability. Suspension lift, Lockers and Tyre Size.

This system works on adding up the total number of points and this will determine the class each vehicle is placed in.

Suspension Lift (this includes Body Lift) - Points
Stock - 1
up to 2" - 2
2" - 4" - 3
over 4" - 4

Tyres
Stock - 1
Under 33" - 2
33" - 35" - 3
36" & over - 4

Lockers
Stock - 1
Front OR Rear ONLY - 2
Front & Rear - 3

Classes:

Class A: 3 points
Class B: 4 – 6 points
Class C: 7 - 10 points
Class D: 11 points

Tell me what you guys think.

Cheers

Kris

[tuls]

kris great idea but you for got the dif and tran ratios as a mod but that can be modified to suit

[tuls]

kris great idea but you for got the dif and tran ratios as a mod but that can be modified to suit

[CrazyNuts]

kris great idea but you for got the dif and tran ratios as a mod but that can be modified to suit

I don't think these modifications impact the ability of a 4WD as much as the items listed. I mean....i've got 4.56 ratios and 35" tyres on my jeep. And there is little difference between that and when it was stock. Basically....i got the ratios to be able to run larger tyres and still be able to use my 4th and 5th gear....if you know what i mean.

Also i thought that placing a vehicle with only ONE diff locker in a group where they are competing with vehicles with 2 diff lockers is just absurd. There is no way these 2 combinations can compete with each other (which is what has been done for the last 2 competitions)

[DeWsE]

I can't see why you would disadvantage someone with more lift, their the ones that need the help seeing as they are going to have a crap COG.

But then again people will be more inclined to build smaller then big.

AJ I don't really see a need for a buggy class.... I mean duncan will be driving against himself! I don't think Shane is ever going to go back to the track, and I doubt he will take his buggy.... He's not even interested in taking his Heep

[duncan]

Kris I think dif ratios make heaps of difference as climbing you want to be nice and slow over rocky sections makes life easy otherwise your trying to balance revs and clutch plus see were your going makes it lots harder.As for buggies I see Alan running a seperate comp with just D or above vehicles competing against each other with no tyre limits.

Dewse why wont Shane bring the car up if Alan mods the course to make it harder or is it he just dosnt want to compete which is fine

[gordon]

Duncan, Kris,

If a diff/transfer ratio change merely returns the vehicle to (approx) standard overall gearing (i.e. makes up for a variation in tyre size), I wouldn't see that as being something that should attract a penalty.

But if you're talking about underdrive boxes, or significant reduction ratios (eg Maxi-drive 30% or 40% low ratio gearsets), then maybe that should, as that is an additional advantage over stock.

I'd perhaps modify the points for lift (maybe just consider it a combination of body and suspension) to:

stock - 1
up to 2" - 2
2" ~ 4" - 3
over 4" - 4

to even the spread a bit.

[duncan]

Agree with you about the ratios just back to stock no advantage but realisticly how can you penilise people for ratios when you cant see exactly what been changed

[CrazyNuts]

Good idea gordon. I just modified my previous post to reflect your idea

Duncan: I agree with gordon. Unless you got really over the top diff ratio modifications it aint gonna make sweet f*** all difference unless you decide to stay with smaller tyres. But even then, it won't be as easy for someone to rockcrawl as they will have clearance issues.....

but if you have large tyres and 150:1 crawl ratio then maybe it might be an advantage to you.....unless of course you need to gain some momentum

Either way....it evens itself out and that is why i don't particularly rate diff ratio's as much of an advantage as having suspension, lockers and tyres modified. Those 3 items are what make the BIGGEST difference off-road.

[CrazyNuts]

Agree with you about the ratios just back to stock no advantage but realisticly how can you penilise people for ratios when you cant see exactly what been changed

Exactly

And in my model, you will realise that i have left out any scoring system for ratios for exactly that reason.

EDIT: I just made changes to the tyre size point system in my model as well. placing ppl with 34" tyres in the same category as ppl with 36" tyres is a bit of a big gap.

[DeWsE]

I totally disagree with ya chris..... gear ratio is close to if not one of the best mod you can do. But it's all about driving style I suppose. But in saying that I don't think you should have penilties for that.

Oh and as an example for your point idea.

Based of shanes heap
suspension = 3" = -3
tyres = -3 (based on 35's coz of the type of track)
lockers = -3

Total -9 so he will be in class B

Poor furkers in that class will get reemed!!!

vs

lada niva
2" = 2 points
under 33's on 28" = 2 points
welded front and rear = 3 points

class B

Hmm i see this is fair


a zuk
SPOA = 4 points
33s = 3 points
locked F&R = 3 points

class C

Then on the other extreem you have a LBW pootrol
6' = 4 points
36" = 4 points
locked fr = 3 points

Class d

Duncan- Shane just isn't interested in the track, to warrant going back. He has an interest in very different sorts of tracks. I think he would rather spend his time setting up a track at his house rather then 3 hours away.
I reckon if the track is harder he may be more interested. I'll let him answer for himself from here on though.

[bear]

I dont believe that you can class a locker as a mod and then class a body lift as another. Lets face it a locker does a lot more than a body lift that just allows wheel travel and clearance for tryes.just my 2 cents worth

[CrazyNuts]

That is why i said suspension and body lift together. I assumed that the installation of a body lift/suspension was for the purpose of installing larger tyres.

In regards to your reply DeWsE, body modifications like on Shane's Jeep would have to be scrutinised seperatly as i would really classify them as a suspension mod (even though it's not) to allow iftment of larger tyres. These modifications almost always tie in with the intention of fiting larger tyres. But yes...you are right that if we followed that model without taking into account what shane has done, he would piss all over the B class.

[DeWsE]

So how are you going to know what mods someone has done. You’re a jeep boy so you are going to know what he has done the second you look at it. Did you know my zuk had virtal lift? And if you did know, by how much? Do you measure the amount I lifted the flare or only the amount I trimmed under. I don’t even know how much coz I just went nuts with the grinder. I don’t think you can just making rules.

Would people agree that lockers are one of the most beneficial mods in this type of comp?

Lets look at the type of people that are going to compete..

People in a stock rig (by stock I include 2â€

[CrazyNuts]

sorry....i was just sharing a model i thought would work :-( Only trying to help out. I'll go back to my cave now.

[DeWsE]

sorry....i was just sharing a model i thought would work :-( Only trying to help out. I'll go back to my cave now.

Why it's an open discussion, my model is based closely to yours apart from i got rid of the lift..... lift isn't an advantage, it's what we do to fit the rubber.

Keep posting your idea, and pick shit out of mine I don't care. Thats how we will find a good model.

[jeep97tj]

ENGINE

Stock eng 0 points
500cc -1point
1000cc -2p
1500cc -3p
2000cc -4p

Turbo/supercharge r= +25% of engine capacity so minis what ever points it works out at.

Max - points for engine mods is 4

SUSPENSION

Overall lift eg body,springs,spacers

Stock -2" 0 points
3"-5" -1 point
6- skyhigh -2 points

TYRES

up to 31s 0 points
32-34 -1 point
35-37 -2 points
38-42 -3 points
43- too big for WA –4 points

Non dot approved tyre - another point

Max points is 4

Now a 33" bogger will be the same as a 35" mtr or bfg... fair??

GEARS

Either diff or tran, or double transfer 0 points
2 or more -1 point


In my opinion a track should be un passable to 25% of the vehicles, starting out easy and getting harder along the way, the further u go the more points u get. There should also be a time limit, not some super quick time that means u have to bash the shit out of your rig to finish but a average time that is worked out by people testing the track befor the comp. Finish 1-20 sec early +1 point 21-40sec early + 2 points 41-60 sec early +3 points.

Reversing

ok

Winching

1 time -1point
2 times -2points
3 or more -3 points but u are probley out of time any way

Rock stacking

A pile of diffrent rocks painted pink in a large circle on the side of the track at diffrent points can use them but -2 points for using 1 or all of them and -1 point for every rock not put back in the circle when finished with them.

Just a thought

As to MY thoughts about the track, could be harder, that last little bit on saturday was good till everyone started moving the rocks out of the way, this gave me the shits. The reason that track was chosen was because of thoses very rocks, so why move them? to make it eaiser? then whats the point of driving it then? if u dont like it dont try it, leave it for some one else to try.

I wouldnt take the jeep up there because it is a very long drive just to drive around the bush, because thats what the jeeps were doing just driving around. Now i dont want to sound like i think me or better yet my jeep is to good its just how i feel, I really hate driving.

I did like the steep valley stuff though, like the one u pointed out to me duncan, i think its the one in the last pic of u on the other page. But u said u were going to have another busy bee?? i will bum a lift with mat and help out.

But with all the ideas being thrown around and the new location it should be a good comp next year, and if there is a open class i will be up there folowing u around duncan

[gordon]

Hmmm,

OK, thinking about it, the primary reason for a lift _is_ simply to fit larger tyres. And the primary reason for tyres is to increase clearance (which could be argued as being the secondary reason for fitting the lift).

So, looked at that way, they're essentially the same thing. So either scrap the penalties for lifts (just concentrate on tyre-size) or somehow combine them. I think the former would be easier, the latter fairer. Let's stick to easier for the moment.

What would be more important is the _type_ of suspension mod, i.e. how far it varies from the stock set-up (eg coils for leaves, air/pneumatic conversions, pick-up points etc).

Also thinking a little more about it, the advantage of two lockers over one is not as great as one locker over none. So how about something like (borrowing a bit from jeep97tj):

Tyres:
up to 31 : 1 point
31.5 to 33.5 : 2 points
33.5 to 35.5 : 3 points
35.5 to 37.5 : 4 points
37.5 + : 6 points


Lockers:
None : 0 points
1 lsd (non-standard) : 1 point
1 locker or 2 lsd : 2 points
2 lockers : 3 points

Susp mods:

--- To Be Done - fill in here ----

[jeep97tj]

How many points would a 4x4 get if they had 1 lsd and 1 locker? as i thing this is a very common setup.

[duncan]

I agree with you Shane and can see your point I believe that the track should be harder so that vehicles have to realy have a go to get round .As it is at the momment its a fun weekend spot for most cars .But the way things are changing in the 4x4 seen most cars these days are running at least 3 inch lift 35 simex and at least 1 locker ,yes there are lots of less moded cars but who do you catter for.

I would have thought that the people comming to watch want to see cars having a hard time getting around the course not just cruising through and with this wont people see it and maybe spark them up to build a car for them selves thus creating more compation.

Also people comming and competing want something challenging to seperate the great drivers from the good drivers if a lot of the field are on a equal basis.I believe that a lot has changed from 2 years ago when the first Night Owl comp was held now more cars are fully built and wanting to have a real compation.Now I may be biased because of the people I wheel with but seeing other cars out on the tracks and talking to people it seems most people want to go this way.Maybe it should be a very hard course with a time limit that is not a flat out race were 80% of the field is not expected to beable to drive everything but can either self recover or be pulled through some obsticles with maybe a couple of cars if there very lucky making it

Shane yes we tried the gully that I pointed out to you was a lot of fun and a challenge would love to see your buggy giving it ago and when the comps are on next year im hoping to be able to follow you .

No matter what happens because in the end it is Alan Cranes decision to how the comp is run and how hard or easy it is ill be there to help out on the course or hopefully have a drive because if we dont get behind this type of comp and build on it then Wa will never get around to as good a comp seen as the Eastern States guys have it Alan needs the Wa drivers and public to get behind this comp so that it will carry on

[gordon]

Duncan,

Your sentiments are valid, but there _was_ a lot that was unfair with the way the comp was run last year - for example, the discrepancy between the (web) published specs for a Class A vehicle and what was actually enforced at the grounds. So it would be nice to see a fairer playing ground next year. Maybe the best solution is simply to enforce the CCDA class rules, or a variation on them, rather than make up our own individual state rules from scratch. Looking back on these posts, it seems we are trying to regulate this comp within the context of a strictly rock-climbing event, which is not what the Gymkhana has been previously, and is not something that I, for one, would be overly happy with.

A bit of mud is always a good thing

[bulldogy]

Ok from what ive read and seen i dont think Duncan is after a total rock climbing event he just wants an event that is hard for the cars to run thru a few more steep ascents and decents onto some cross sloped logs would as Dewse said would make for some spectacular spectator pleasure .
At the end of the day it is upto alan and the nightowl crew to determine what the comp rules will be.
Id suggest looking at the all terain courses run in the east they get some good attendance some hard runs and some all out hard shite!
Now im not a competitor but i think the track does need to be harder with some hairy off camber stuff and a few tough climbs .
If duncan and shane want too compete and there is a limit on tyre size then they can borrow some 35s and compete in whatever class they are into eg 35s twin locked susp etc etc.
I think spectators would love too see these buggys compete with the normal moded trucks with the same tyres and then if they like run a few harder lines that those with 35s wouldnt .
Let them take there big tyres and put on a little comp for best buggy there with 35+ tyres and they can compete with the boys 35s with 35s on .
Lets make it hard but fun remember if you make it too hard then no1 will wanna come and do damage and the next 1 will be a fizzer but at the same time make it harder so there is more challenge. and more will want too come next time we have too build the sport not totaly kill it in one event.
So what if it aint too hardcore just enough too make the arse pukker a few times a few rolls would be nice lol but not too extreme.
This place could be made into a real good course just take it steady.
Let the big boys play and the little boys play too and have fun lets face it thats what we all wheel for!
Any bussy bees im into too make things better and evry1 comes along and help design the course to make it for all diff trucks like this weekend was for it wasnt a comp it was too see how easy or hard it was and alan agreed it needed to be harder.
As for what mods etc well thats a can of worms. Does anyone know a club over east that runs comps and can give us some kind of regs for classes??
We can sit and go on forever like i am doin now lol but lets keep on track for what we all want a 4wd competition that evry1 can enjoy and the buggys can have fun too .
thats my 2cents anyway.
Dave

[duncan]

Dave I agreewith you in the end we have to try to make a comp that everyone can have fun with and want to come back to so if that means I dont get to compete this year well ill take it on the chin and hopefully spot for someone and maybe compete next year or if Alan runs another comp with different divisions just want the comp seen to get of the ground start with one and then more might be started by other people we can only hope .

My dream a 4 or 5 round comp spread over the year at different courses encompasing all aspects of wheelin so as to not just cater to one type of car

[jeep97tj]

I dont think u can have a tyre size limit, If u do that the sport will stop evolving.
Most people are at 35s and dual lockers now, we dont want to stop there do we?
Just say over 36s is open class, if u have 37s,38s and no lockeres u must be a poser ,and dont belong there anyway.

[bulldogy]

The sport has too START, before it can start too evolve !!!
There has been no comp this year due too lack of interest and location prob a few too many critisisms on last years event didnt help either.
We have too make sure we help them out as much as possible too organise the comp more hands means less work for evryone.
As for the tyre size that was just an example most people are either running the 35s or 36 so maybe like shane said 36+ open but for now lets make an effort to get the comp up and ready too go and have some fun.
And i cant see why the buggys if they put a tyre limit on cant just run those tyres for the comp .
Hell ill lend my 35s too see duncans zook go against the 35+36s bit of fun lol.

[ausyota]

I think up to 36" in the normal classes and anything you want in "outlaw class".
Suits me when I get my 36" TSL boots on

I think the way of sorting the classes last year was a bit crap.
The stocker class was to leinent and the open class was too strict.
I was in open class with my IFS lux on 33s and one locker against the big boys. And Badooky was in open in his zook with no lockers!
Paul.

[gordon]

As I said earlier, what's wrong with sticking to the CCDA classifications? Maybe some minor mods? They're pretty comprehensive.

And Bulldoggy - I would think critisms would be welcomed - and at least listened to. If spectators aren't happy (let alone competitors) then the comp will fold. And no one wants that.

[bazooked]

and lets hope nightowl has the proper insurance cover at next years event, even if we do have to pay a bit more to compete.

[duncan]

Dosent realy bother me how much it costs to compete as long as it gets of the ground Alan realy should get in touch with some of the organisers of the off road comps over east to see how they classify there cars just want it to happen please please please dont make us fall further behind everyone else and stagnate with no comps