A warning

[Strange Rover]

VEHICLE SPECIFICATIONS, SAFETY and RULES are the same for each event.

Ill just comment on ths point a bit. What Dustin proposed about what and how a sanctioning body should work is more complicated than just forcing everybody to run the same rules.

What the sanctioning (CCDA)body will do is to make everybody eventually run the same rules.

How this would work OZ Rock.....

OZ Rock goes to the CCDA and says that they want to run a rockcrawling competition. They discuss what they are trying to achieve and what sort of competitors they are going to get so they decide tojust run one class.

At their next competition nothing much has changed and they run it the same way.

At the next one OZ Rock and CCDA discuss it and they think they will get enough numbers to run 2 classes but the modified class carnt be the same as the international rules because the modified cars dont all have steering boxes and some of them dont have a long enough chassis in the front. CCDA says - yep thats good - we will just run it as is in the two classes which is different to the international rules but we are slowely working towards running the full international rules.

Next event is the same

Next event is the same

Next event comes around and the CCDA says to Oz Rock that they really should be trying to run the proper international rules. OZ Rock says yea we know but the cars arnt their yet. There are a few new cars that have been built and they comply totally with the international rules but we still got 5 rigs in the class that dont comply. CCDA says fair enough but the next event you run if they dont have a steering box then they must run unlimited.

Next event runs and 2 out of the 5 put a steering box into their rigs and now comply fully witht eh international and the last 3 rigs run in unlimited.

next event happens and the CCDA says that OZ Rock really has to start enforcing the body panel rule so that the classes fully comply with the international rules. OZ Rock fair enough - we will get the word out and try to get the competitors to comply.

next event happens and OZ Rock is fully compliant with the international rules.

Bit long winded but you can see that for this to work the sanctioning body has to be proactive and work with promoters to get their rule compliant and grow with them as their series grows.

Its not just a matter of forcing everybody to run the same rules straight away.

Sam

[*BESTY*]

Right now in the states, there is:
Pro Rock
UROC
NeuRock
WE Rock
RRock
CalRocs
and a number of other smaller events that create their own rules

How many of these events are covered by Insurance ?? Do their Sanctioning bodies cover that ??

(Please tell me 'cause I don't know)

What is the real reason there is so much bitchin'

As I said before, all of this negative posting will only cause damage to the sport of Rockcrawling in Australia.



I thought it would have been more appropriate for the main organisers of the Crawling events to get together and discuss this instead of on a public forum.

Form a Committee FFS and work out the best thing for the Sport in Australia to be able to grow and compete with the rest of the world.

[Strange Rover]

from what i noticed it was instances where there was chances of roll over's cheezy plus others in orange were making the croud move away from the area in which the car would be heading, i know we rock event staff would not have let anything happen to the spectators as well if it were forseable (sp?) its just at oz rock it seem'd more visable, and maybe it was just the course setup that made that the case.

also rob being told to stop smoking his tyres, i was told this was due to safety concerns as he may have gripped up and launched off bouncing into the croud (this was secound hand from another spectator who said they'd heard it from a official)

So the crowd wasnt in a safe place to start with and when a situation occured the crowd was moved to a safe place - nothing special here we have done this in WE Rock as well.

Just bacause you move a crowd doesent mean you are being save - it means the crowd wasnt safe where they were standing and it was lucky that nothing happened. Imagin if Rob did indeed get some grip as he was smoking the tyres and launched into the crowd before anybody had a chance to stop him - that wouldnt be safe.

Again this also has happened at WE Rock and it just means that everybody learns as they go along. You should have been at the first round of WE Rock if you wanted to see some safety shiat happening. We Were moving crowds away from falling trees, moving crowds from unstable rocks, putting safety lines on vehicles to stop them rolling down the hill.........we learnt heaps from that first event and now try to put the crowd in a safe place to start with...and I think we are doing that as we learn more about where the cars can end up if stuff goes a bit wrong.

Sam

[ljxtreem]

When will WErock start making vehicles comply with the rules, not class,(scrutaneering) I mean, safty and fluid containment rules

Mock

[Strange Rover]

Right now in the states, there is:
Pro Rock
UROC
NeuRock
WE Rock
RRock
CalRocs
and a number of other smaller events that create their own rules

How many of these events are covered by Insurance ?? Do their Sanctioning bodies cover that ??

(Please tell me 'cause I don't know)

What is the real reason there is so much bitchin'

As I said before, all of this negative posting will only cause damage to the sport of Rockcrawling in Australia.



I thought it would have been more appropriate for the main organisers of the Crawling events to get together and discuss this instead of on a public forum.

Form a Committee FFS and work out the best thing for the Sport in Australia to be able to grow and compete with the rest of the world.

These events do their own insurance. There is no sanctioning body that covers them all - they all sanction their own events.

I dont call this bitching - did you see the Positive 4X4 Press thread - now thats bitchen!!!!

I think this discussion is good cause lets people see what sort of issues are out there.

Sam

[RUFF]

When will WErock start making vehicles comply with the rules, not class,(scrutaneering) I mean, safty and fluid containment rules

Mock

When is OZrock going to make competitors comply to all of their set rules?

I dont see what your point is or what it has to do with this discussion

[Strange Rover]

When will WErock start making vehicles comply with the rules, not class,(scrutaneering) I mean, safty and fluid containment rules

Mock

What rules?? WE Rock Australia didnt have any rules this year and we complied to everyone of them. Have a look at the rules on www.werockaustralia.com

We sort of had rules for the promodified class for the last 2 events but that was just 2 seats, front engined, 37in tyres and no rear steer - these were the only rules we had because I knew if I posted rules (like you guys) then nobody could comply to them.

So to answer your question every vehicle has complied to the rules at every WE Rock event.

Its OZ Rock that has rules and didnt comply to them (I guess this the bitchen part - but Mock started it )

Mock - I dont think we need to go here in this thread do you?

Sam

[45punkbus]

Again this also has happened at WE Rock and it just means that everybody learns as they go along. You should have been at the first round of WE Rock if you wanted to see some safety shiat happening. We Were moving crowds away from falling trees, moving crowds from unstable rocks, putting safety lines on vehicles to stop them rolling down the hill.........we learnt heaps from that first event and now try to put the crowd in a safe place to start with...and I think we are doing that as we learn more about where the cars can end up if stuff goes a bit wrong.

Sam

all i was saying here dude is from my observations, if i had of been at the first we rock event then id know its a learning curve all crawling comps go through. by all means i am not knocking oz rock or we rock in anyway as what you all have done to get the sport to grow, let alone start is amazing,

. Imagin if Rob did indeed get some grip as he was smoking the tyres and launched into the crowd before anybody had a chance to stop him - that wouldnt be safe.

the croud was not that close to the action, indeed something may have happen'd but something can always happen, but it was a similar stage to the bonus line on st 1 at the finals, yet ruff and others were aloud to smoke there tyres with the croud in alot closer viewing points. I never said we rock was unsafe, it just from "MY" perspective oz rock "Seem'd" to voice saftey concerns more. again these are my views and again i am not having a go at anyone just voicing my opinions.

[ljxtreem]

I mean , I know of a few cars that where entered in WE rock that didnt have kill switches/fire walls or catch cans or skid lids. these things are all coverd in the rules.

At OZrock we where pretty tight on that sort of thing but did let a few slip as it was the firt event, though I doubt we will let stuff slip next event.


Mock

[45punkbus]

I dont call this bitching - did you see the Positive 4X4 Press thread - now thats bitchen!!!!

I think this discussion is good cause lets people see what sort of issues are out there.

agree with both these points

[RUFF]

the croud was not that close to the action, indeed something may have happen'd but something can always happen, but it was a similar stage to the bonus line on st 1 at the finals, yet ruff and others were aloud to smoke there tyres with the croud in alot closer viewing points. I never said we rock was unsafe, it just from "MY" perspective oz rock "Seem'd" to voice saftey concerns more. again these are my views and again i am not having a go at anyone just voicing my opinions.

When i was on the Bonus for B1 Time was called and the crowed was moved to a safer distance.

[ljxtreem]

When will WErock start making vehicles comply with the rules, not class,(scrutaneering) I mean, safty and fluid containment rules

Mock

What rules?? WE Rock Australia didnt have any rules this year and we complied to everyone of them. Have a look at the rules on www.werockaustralia.com

We sort of had rules for the promodified class for the last 2 events but that was just 2 seats, front engined, 37in tyres and no rear steer - these were the only rules we had because I knew if I posted rules (like you guys) then nobody could comply to them.

So to answer your question every vehicle has complied to the rules at every WE Rock event.

Its OZ Rock that has rules and didnt comply to them (I guess this the bitchen part - but Mock started it )

Mock - I dont think we need to go here in this thread do you?

Sam

As I said, not the vehicle class rules, but all the other rules in your rule book, and ours.

This is not bitching, It was a question, note the question mark

Mock

[*BESTY*]

These events do their own insurance. There is no sanctioning body that covers them all - they all sanction their own events.

Thanks for that

So I take it that for the first WE Rock Events held you had really really BIG balls without Insurance.....because you had Insurance for the Finals.

Why did you not do the CCDA insurance thing when you first started ??, and could have influenced the Rules, Regulations, Safety and Specs required by the CCDA for Insurance ??? Why didn't you phone and discuss these issues with the originators ??

Why don't you still do that (phone) to work out the best thing for growth of this sport on both local and international markets. Work together not seperately


Enough said.................it's all about Insurance and here in Australia there's not too many companies that will Insure events with unregisterable vehicles for a 'dangerous' sport.

[Strange Rover]

When will WErock start making vehicles comply with the rules, not class,(scrutaneering) I mean, safty and fluid containment rules

Mock

And to answer this question - Round 1 next year. I have said all along that it is 2006 that we are running the full on WE Rock Rules.

This year was just setting us up for next year - we basically did the same way as my long post above - we ran 2 events with just one class and the next two we had a promodified class. Next we will be running and proper internationally reconised WE Rock Limited and Unlimited classes.

And I think you guys should be trying to do the same thing. Probably not next year but definately the year after that if you want Australia to be competitive on the World stage. This is the beauty of this sport - there is a World Championship to work towards.

Sam

[45punkbus]

the croud was not that close to the action, indeed something may have happen'd but something can always happen, but it was a similar stage to the bonus line on st 1 at the finals, yet ruff and others were aloud to smoke there tyres with the croud in alot closer viewing points. I never said we rock was unsafe, it just from "MY" perspective oz rock "Seem'd" to voice saftey concerns more. again these are my views and again i am not having a go at anyone just voicing my opinions.

When i was on the Bonus for B1 Time was called and the crowed was moved to a safer distance.

i do remember that, but the distance was still a fair bit closer to that of the one in robs case. and in robs case(i was told*) he was told to stop smoking his tyres or his run would have been finished (*i was told by the same spectator as previously mention'd)

[RUFF]

At OZrock we where pretty tight on that sort of thing but did let a few slip as it was the firt event, though I doubt we will let stuff slip next event.


Mock

From the pictures i have seen it was no more strict at all. You still had the ABT buggy running with little firewall and no bonnet.


But as i said this has nothing to do with what we are discussing. This is not about W.E.Rock or about OZrock its about Rockcrawling as a whole. I just dont think you get this. From what im getting from your replies Mock you think Dustin has been asked by W.E.Rock to start a shit fight between us and you. Dustins comments are his own. We have not had this discussion other than what you see here on the site. Its not an US and YOU argument its an US as a whole. Its what is going to be the best for the sport of Rockcrawling. Not who is going to be the best.

[45punkbus]

i think what sam said just a few posts up is what is the best way to do it for the sport, as we rock aus has taken a year to find its feet (and has done so very quick ) oz rock and other similar comps should do the same, once they have run a few events they should fine tune the rules to suit the internation rules so everyone who wants to boost numbers in the comps does not need to memorise 2 or more sets of rules making it easyier and less chances of dispute at the comps etc.

[Strange Rover]

These events do their own insurance. There is no sanctioning body that covers them all - they all sanction their own events.

Thanks for that

So I take it that for the first WE Rock Events held you had really really BIG balls without Insurance.....because you had Insurance for the Finals.

Why did you not do the CCDA insurance thing when you first started ??, and could have influenced the Rules, Regulations, Safety and Specs required by the CCDA for Insurance ??? Why didn't you phone and discuss these issues with the originators ??

Why don't you still do that (phone) to work out the best thing for growth of this sport on both local and international markets. Work together not seperately


Enough said.................it's all about Insurance and here in Australia there's not too many companies that will Insure events with unregisterable vehicles for a 'dangerous' sport.

We have always had insurance - just not through the CCDA untill the finals.

And yes I did speak at length to the CCDA about the rules and regulations. The rules have to be flexible enough or loose enough to allow promotors to be able to form a start up competition like what OZ Rock has just done and what we have done all year. There is no point forcing promoters to run vehicle classes that there are no competitors for. The transition of an new series from start up to running full international rules will always take time. Promoters need to be able to run very simple rules to get things going.

The rules that we are talking about Oz Rock doing different is there modified class doesent require a steering box, they dont require the frame to be level with the front of the front tyres and they done require front guards, grill and side panels. This is all there is different. These are relatevily minor things that makes their class different but if you put in a heap of time and money and built a rig to these specs and then wanted to compete in the World Championships then you would have to compete in the unlimited class and would have no chance. Basically for sombody that aspires to compete against the best in the world building something to the OZ Rock rules wont get you there.

Sam

[RUFF]

i do remember that, but the distance was still a fair bit closer to that of the one in robs case. and in robs case(i was told*) he was told to stop smoking his tyres or his run would have been finished (*i was told by the same spectator as previously mention'd)

I cant comment on Robs situation but in mine there was no way the car was going to take off wildly into the crowd. The chances are it was going to Endo and land on its lid.

But again refere to my last post this realy has nothing to do with what we are trying to achive.

[Strange Rover]

As I said, not the vehicle class rules, but all the other rules in your rule book, and ours.

This is not bitching, It was a question, note the question mark

Mock

I dont have a rule book. WE Rock USA has a rule book but we arnt using that until next year.

Sam.

[bad_religion_au]

from what i noticed it was instances where there was chances of roll over's cheezy plus others in orange were making the croud move away from the area in which the car would be heading, i know we rock event staff would not have let anything happen to the spectators as well if it were forseable (sp?) its just at oz rock it seem'd more visable, and maybe it was just the course setup that made that the case.

also rob being told to stop smoking his tyres, i was told this was due to safety concerns as he may have gripped up and launched off bouncing into the croud (this was secound hand from another spectator who said they'd heard it from a official)

So the crowd wasnt in a safe place to start with and when a situation occured the crowd was moved to a safe place - nothing special here we have done this in WE Rock as well.

Just bacause you move a crowd doesent mean you are being save - it means the crowd wasnt safe where they were standing and it was lucky that nothing happened. Imagin if Rob did indeed get some grip as he was smoking the tyres and launched into the crowd before anybody had a chance to stop him - that wouldnt be safe.

Again this also has happened at WE Rock and it just means that everybody learns as they go along. You should have been at the first round of WE Rock if you wanted to see some safety shiat happening. We Were moving crowds away from falling trees, moving crowds from unstable rocks, putting safety lines on vehicles to stop them rolling down the hill.........we learnt heaps from that first event and now try to put the crowd in a safe place to start with...and I think we are doing that as we learn more about where the cars can end up if stuff goes a bit wrong.

Sam

they were being extra careful... i.e. i think it was the first stage on the second day, there was a "bonus line" that wouldn't be out of place in a werock comp. the crowd was no closer than would be allowed at werock, however if the compeditors wanted to take th bonus line, they called time, and the crowd was moved every time, heaps further back. also robs incident was almost identical to ruffs, except there was more distance between him and the crowd than there was even after the crowd was moved back, and he was still told to stop smokin it. also spotters weren't alowed in front of that stage to pull on the strap, unlike A1 (or B1) bonus line.

i've never felt unsafe at werock, even when firetruck was rolling towards me (slow roll, little chance it'd get to the bunting), however at OZROCK, they added another buffer again. probably being overcautious due to inexperience. they had the crowd at distances as safe as a werock comp, however, when things looked to be getting tippy, the crowd (and photogs) were moved even further away.

this is what punkbus was trying to convey..

as for rules, i think what sam described as a proactive sanctioning body sounds like a winning formula, with rules tweaked to get classes started, slowly progressing to international rules. only thing i'd like to add, is that perhaps, if an AUSTRALIA wide series was to get up off the ground, as sam and the werock crew can't be expected to do it all, perhaps a few different groups, working under similar goals, takes a section of the country each, and the points all tally up into the same "ladder"

[ljxtreem]

As I said, not the vehicle class rules, but all the other rules in your rule book, and ours.

This is not bitching, It was a question, note the question mark

Mock

I dont have a rule book. WE Rock USA has a rule book but we arnt using that until next year.

Sam.

Ahhh, so u been making it up as u go too


Mock

[grimbo]

Mick I'm not sure what you are trying to do with your slagging of WE Rock. How about everyone try and work together and get this sport moving ahead in one direction.

As Dustin has pointed out these issues can split the sport even further if it doesn't get sorted. There are successful event organisers/events/rules etc from the states so maybe utilising their knowledge at this foundling stage is the best thing for everyone. This cuts out alot of the learning process which is where the sh*t fights start. If you can start with an established base it allows the events to then grow from there.

Event management is hard enough without having to play the politics game as well. This sport is still very new to Australia and potentially can be as fast growing as in the US but because of our much smaller base to work from we don't have the luxury of splitting in to 8 different sanctioned bodies. Not enough competitors not enough spectators = not enough $$$$ to keep it going.

[HeathGQ]

I think the distances here in Oz make it difficult too. So to be an Aust comp scene, there needs to be different people doing the events, particularly while people are not making a lining out of it, but for this to happen, the specs and rules must be judged the same.

Dustins comments should be taken as just that, comments from a professional who has seen first hand the issues with different rules and events. Its called constructive critisism.......

[sierrajim]

I think the distances here in Oz make it difficult too. So to be an Aust comp scene, there needs to be different people doing the events, particularly while people are not making a lining out of it, but for this to happen, the specs and rules must be judged the same.

Dustins comments should be taken as just that, comments from a professional who has seen first hand the issues with different rules and events. Its called constructive critisism.......

we have a winner

well said

[GutSquisher Media]

Please people get a grip, what you are doing here is only going to hurt the sport.

If the organizers of these events can please put aside there personalities and we were first attitudes for a minuet and think of the sport first.

You all need to get together with CCDA and workout a framework for the sport, a lot has already been done, lets tidy up the edges and make a time frame for all the vehicles to comply with the rules.

And please,

WE ARE NOT AMERICANS, WE ARE BETTER. WE DO NOT HAVE TO DO EVERY THING THEY DO!!!!!

If we do go down their route, rock crawling in Australian will die. Remember the US has over 295 million people we have only 20 million they can support all their different codes WE CAN NOT!

[ljxtreem]

Mick I'm not sure what you are trying to do with your slagging of WE Rock. How about everyone try and work together and get this sport moving ahead in one direction.

As Dustin has pointed out these issues can split the sport even further if it doesn't get sorted. There are successful event organisers/events/rules etc from the states so maybe utilising their knowledge at this foundling stage is the best thing for everyone. This cuts out alot of the learning process which is where the sh*t fights start. If you can start with an established base it allows the events to then grow from there.

Event management is hard enough without having to play the politics game as well. This sport is still very new to Australia and potentially can be as fast growing as in the US but because of our much smaller base to work from we don't have the luxury of splitting in to 8 different sanctioned bodies. Not enough competitors not enough spectators = not enough $$$$ to keep it going.

Grimbo,
im not slaging WErock, I think WErock is way cool, and I hope to get to a couple next year, I think its all cool WErock and OZrock, and its Christmas day and we should all be happy, cuddle and kiss and be happy, and look forward to a fully sick year of rock crawling in Australia
Well done to everybody involved getting rock crawing this far.

Merry Christmas

Mock

Champagne is good

[XTREME MMM]

Merry Christmas, I hope you all had a good one.


XRCC will be continuing in the future with 3 Rounds planned for next year. They will be based in the South East corner of Queensland or in Northern NSW.

Xtreme 4X4 Sport has it's own Insurance and was also the first to have insurance for non regestered vehicles. XRCC will operate under its own rules and is aligned with no other group.

Congrats to Sam & his crew for really pushing the buggy side of this great sport. He has put a lot of work into this, and as another event organiser I would say if you think you can do better then go ahead. All the best Sam for 2006.

A good thing about having several different event organisers is that you have seven different styles of events even thro they may be all rock crawling based. They would be nothing worse then in this style of event that they were all run the same.

Variety is great.


As for insurance it is up to the event organiser to obtain the best possible even if it means aligning with some group who already has it (CCDA).


Above all competitor & spectator safety is the first thing that and event organiser has to worry about.

Anyway all the best for 2006 and take it easy out there.


Regards David (MMM)

[DamTriton]

I would suggest ppl go back and read the first post in this thread. It appears that we are already experiencing what we were being warned about.

My 2 cents worth: A meeting of all interested parties to be held at a central location (Sydney???) to thrash out National rules for classes and event operation, a National official sactioning organisation, and to present a united front to the event insurers. This would allow state run events/championships to culminate in a national championship series, all covered by the same rules and sanctioning body. Different classes could be incorporated, with the option of events to be run in those specific classes only (XRCC, Winch Challenge, Tuff Truck)

Other forms of motorsport are able to get insurance once the requirements of the sport are known by the insurers and adequate safety measures are undertaken (Think of the insurance requirements for events like Indy 500 and the Adelaide and Melbourne GP's - public roads, private properties withing metres of the racetrack etc.). Our problem is that we are a relative "unknown", and having multiple small events with different standards of operation, through different insurers, doesn't help our overall situation.

The key would appear to be UNITED front. Don't let this simmer, or let personal differences spoil an emerging sport.

Le's not have any "Betamax" operations.

[Lil' Rich]

Ok, to kind of give some insight as to why things are the way they are:

W.E.ROCK=World Extreme Rock Crawling Sanctioning Body
We came across this name and Sanctioning Body to involve everyone throughout the world. In essance, using uniform rules (safety and vehicle requirements) allow for easier understandings for everyone involved.

Under the W.E.ROCK Sanctioning body are 48 events in the United States and over 30 events throughout the world including Mexico, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Spain, etc. Each Series titled according to the location: ie. W.E.ROCK Australia, W.E.ROCK USA, etc.

The Complete Reasoning: With unifrom rules (Safety and Vehicle Requirements) W.E.ROCK is able to hold a fair and true world championship which involves more than one country. In doing so, this moves the entire sport of rock crawling, especially everyone involved with W.E.ROCK, to the next level. The Next Level??? = Live TV, Autograph Sessions, commercials, etc. Which will make the entire sport grow but, Not being able to comply with the W.E. ROCK Rules will make you Not Qualify with the WORLD STANDARD which has been successfully created through research by W.E.ROCK.

Currently the US has quite a few RC Comps with different rules and such. This has torn the sport apart and it hasn't been pretty. Now competitors are having to pick and choose which event they go to. More teams are choosing W.E.ROCK everyday due to the Coverage, Sponsors, Rules, Media, Style, Fun, ETC...

While the sport is early, I suggest this: Comply to W.E.ROCK's rules, don't reinvent the wheel. Not because we've been around longer, or that we are bigger, or because every rule has Years or Research integrated into them, but because it creates an even playing field that will let everyone involved become truly involved.



Now on to a few things I wish to comment about:

About why promoters with W.E.ROCK let things fly... sometimes: We all use a theory of, "If the first time you don't succeed, try try again." so we have let people that don't completely follow the rules still run pending on whether the next time they show to a comp, they are running by the rules. No reason for someone to drive 8 hours to get denied from running. We usually only let this allow once, maybe twice a year to try and get more people involved as long as the differences are not a competitve advantage (ie. full hydro steering compared to Hydro Assist would not be allowed to run=bumping up a class)

The History: W.E.ROCK has held over 240 events over 6 years with just around 8 regional series and 8 international series taking place under one sanctioning body, W.E.ROCK. It is the dominant sanctioning body in the World as far as rock crawling is concerned. We, around the world, hope that Australia does not turn out the same as the US had started, it has taken 6 years to overcome the rules differences, and we are still cracking away at it, please don't make the same mistake as the US.

Thanks for your time,

Lil' Rich
W.E.ROCK Santioning Body
W.E.ROCK USA