Stronger C.V's for a rangey

[Snarba]

Hi there just wondering if there are any stronger standard c.v's that will fit a 77' rangey' ie outa a defender? I know you can get aftermarket stuff but was trying to keep costs down as I don't even have lockers yet!! I think I'll end up getting some H/T units from haultech if poss, I'm assuming they will be as good or better than Maxi's......keen for any feedback...tah

[cloughy]

C.V.s as fitted to 110 county are the strongest factory CV

[Aquarangie]

The old 2 piece Rangie CV's are fine IMO, unl;es you break them on a regular basis I wouldn't bother.. I've seen the 110 Cv's break as well, and this was on a 'girls trip' in the club The vehicle was a late 90's defender with 235/85's on nothing special and the driver a bit on the conservative side.

I've always run the old Rangie jobs and even with lockers I have yet to break one. I don't run 35's though so that may be a factor

Trav

[mangie]

I too run the old Rangie cv's and I havn't broken one yet and that's with 35's and lockers.

I read that Mike Smith found no joy with County cv's and went back to the old Rangie ones, good enough for me!

[mangie]

http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/vehicles/rfc/


And here is where I read it.

The artical also states new Range Rover cv's , but I wouldn't think that was the case

[Micka]

I have seen the Haultech treated CVs stand up to 37" rubber

I think they have also worked out fitting Nissan CVs into RRs too. Best to ring Chuck at Haultech and speak to him about that.

Otherwise...go with the MD CVs. A bit of coin for them...but they are strong.

Micka

[DiscoDino]

Toy conversion is 2nd to none, add longfields, and you're set

[tony cordell]

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=1784
keeping Rover parts.

[CQ Davo]

G'day all, I thought i would throw in my 2 bob from my experiances. I have a 96 defender 130 cut to 100". Front and rear air lockers with maxi drive axles front and rear, and running 35" simex and 4sp auto. I have broken countless cv's on mainly the drivers side. That being the short axle side. I am now very carefull of engaging the front locker on any down hill sections or turns but still manage to break at least 2 a year. I now have a range rover front diff in as my diff housing from the defender was a bit smacked around. I liked the RR setup better and was hoping the stub axle would act like a fusable link instead of breaking the CV but this has not been the case. I have broken 1 stub axle and twisted 2, and broken 1 drivers side cv and 1 passenger side cv.

I can't comment on the longfields having never run them but i am trying to keep costs down so have stuck with standard. I have compared a nissan GQ cv to a defender cv and they are exactly the same size externally but the nissan has bigger axles so this should make the inner cage weaker to my way of thinking. The balls are all the same size as well. This is just a visual inspection not a pull-apart and measure things inspection. The only way i can tell that the nissan cv's are stronger is because they are heat treated from the factory and only being run part time they don't get anywhere near the km's on them as do rover cv's which need to be hard and hence britle to get the km's from them.

So now i am looking into going part time 4wd and getting heat treated cv's from haultech and i think they will survive alot longer.

Sorry to hyjack the post a bit but i am now building an 86 rr and was wondering if a rover rear diff will handle being run in 2wd or should i transfer the sailsbury diff from my defender?

I'd like to hear everyones comments on this subject if possible?

[landy_man]

I too run the old Rangie cv's and I havn't broken one yet and that's with 35's and lockers.

I read that Mike Smith found no joy with County cv's and went back to the old Rangie ones, good enough for me!

Mike Smith now runs a Toyota hybrid setup in his Rangie...

[Davidh]

It's really all got to do with the terrain you drive I guess.
I've had 35" Simex on for 2 years now with a Maxidrive rear and stock 10 spline front.
In 2 years I've only broken 1 front inner axle, that's it!
The front inner axle broke last summer as I dropped into a rut on an angle.
First track of the day too.

I don't baby this car either, I give it hell.
I reckon the fact that most tracks we've got are all mud probably explains why it's all held up.

[mangie]

Mike Smith now runs a Toyota hybrid setup in his Rangie...[/quote]


That's all well and good but what was he running when he won the OBC and Malaysian Rainforest Challenge? Rover CV's?

[uninformed]

from what i can tell(never broken anything of mine cause i don't wheel enough) the two piece rr are good because the outer stub shaft is 10 spline and is piss weak so this becomes your fuse. not too hard to change

you can get (from Maxi drive) a guenuine stock rr 60665 cv with a ring, made from 4140, pressed on the outside and with a stub shaft made fom hy tuff. yes its still 10 spline but its a good step up. the ring helps the bell from deforming and causing problems with the balls and gage. plus the cv's still get good road mileage do to there hardness.

longfields need mods to fit rover front end or custom axles etc
isuzurover aka ben knows all the details, i'll leave it for him.....

cv unlimited in the states(get there cv's made by the same manufacture that longfield do) make a kit axles and cv's

and ashcroft now have a cv made for them thats drops in. ashtrans aka dave may supply details...

haultech can re heat treat new cv's, ruff aka tony may provide details

so there are a few options to fix the front cv problem but this may only hilite the next weak link.......any thing can be broken... but it can also be looked after with limits in place....








there also could be another cv option to come....

cheers, Serg

[ashtrans]

Hi,

Snarba, to answer your question, you have a few options which will depend on your budget,

I would suggest fitting a 24 spline ARB (RD56) you will need some bearing spacers to do this but they are not expensive or hard to make, fit some aftermarket 24/23 spline halfshafts and fit some of the 110 county (AEU2522's) CV's, either patten ones at about £ 35 each, geniune at £ about £120 each or we are very soon to be releasing some HD CV's at approx £ 220 each.

to fit any of these CV's you will need to make a small machining mod to the stub but it is not a big job and I can email you a drawing.

please note our CV's are not a 'rework' of the stock design. Although the product is fairly new we have done some quite extreme testing with no failures to date,

if you start breaking ring and pinions you can also 'peg' the diffs, see below,

some links :

shafts :

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_21.html

CV info :

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=1784

Pegging :

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_50.html


Serg, whats this other option ?

[Smithy jnr]

We broke two diff centers with the pegging setup in Mike Smith Range Rover, wasn't worth the effort, the toyota setup is holding up alot better.
Currently using the full toyota setup as previously mentioned and it is holding up well, we are going to switch bake to the original Rangie CV's, the 2 piece arrangement but with a reinforced CV,(ring welded around the outside by Haultech), and the stub axle. This way the stub will fail first, we have proved this many times, before we swapped the Toyota setup into the vehicle. The reason behind the swap back to Rangie is when a modified toyota CV did break it destroyed the axle spline, and custom axles are more expensive than stubs.

Wayne

[Smithy jnr]

We broke two diff centers with the pegging setup in Mike Smith Range Rover, wasn't worth the effort, the toyota setup is holding up alot better.
Currently using the full toyota setup as previously mentioned and it is holding up well, we are going to switch bake to the original Rangie CV's, the 2 piece arrangement but with a reinforced CV,(ring welded around the outside by Haultech), and the stub axle. This way the stub will fail first, we have proved this many times, before we swapped the Toyota setup into the vehicle. The reason behind the swap back to Rangie is when a modified toyota CV did break it destroyed the axle spline, and custom axles are more expensive than stubs.

Wayne

[ashtrans]

Hi,

I would not suggest pegging a stock diff centre, way to weak, we peg ARB's, Detroits, Quaifes Etc, without a doubt if done properly it makes the R & P substantually stronger, I say 'if done properly' as I have seen 'budget' jobs which just consist of a threaded hole with a big bolt in, if you look at the blown up photo I like to think ours is a little neater than that.

I understand the 'fused link' theory of the outer stub shaft but just don't buy it,

the 10 spline stub is real weak and on a serious rig you will be changing this every 10 mins,

initial testing on our destructive test rig is indicating our shafts and CV's together are approx 90% stronger than the 10 spline set up,

[Smithy jnr]

Hi Dave,

If you want some seroius in field testing done, just send the shafts & CV's over, we don't try and break them, but if you play hard enough...
And I think you'll find ours is a fairly serious rig...

Wayne

[mangie]

[quote="Smithy jnr"]Hi Dave,

And I think you will find ours is a fairly serious rig...



I hereby nominate you for understatement of the year (and it's only the 3rd of January )

[landy_man]

I hereby nominate you for understatement of the year (and it's only the 3rd of January )

LOL - would have to agree there... possibly the most award winning Rangie EVER

[ISUZUROVER]

I would not suggest pegging a stock diff centre, way to weak, we peg ARB's, Detroits, Quaifes Etc, without a doubt if done properly it makes the R & P substantually stronger, I say 'if done properly' as I have seen 'budget' jobs which just consist of a threaded hole with a big bolt in, if you look at the blown up photo I like to think ours is a little neater than that.

Dave, the rig mentioned above (Mike Smith's Rangie) is one of the best prepared comp rangies in OZ (if not the world), and has won the malaysian rainforest challenge, the outback challenge, and many other events. It would have been running Maxi-drive? centres with the pegged diff, which should be stronger than an ARB since the flange is made of similar quality metal but is thicker than an ARB. I'm sure the workmanship on the diff pegging was done well.

Surely the biggest problem with the rover diff is due to the spiral bevel (non-hypoid) design, not flexing of the crownwheel under load??? Most comp vehicles over here use 35-36" wheels, and IME the rover diff can't cope with those size wheels in comp conditions.

On another note, I am interested to see the test reports of your CVs when they become available. Any rough estimates of how long they would last on a road-driven landie? And any chance you can match longfield CVs on price (since they are basically the same material).

[ISUZUROVER]

we are going to switch bake to the original Rangie CV's, the 2 piece arrangement but with a reinforced CV,(ring welded around the outside by Haultech), and the stub axle.
Wayne

Wayne - why don't you guys just run a cro-mo CV - like the longfield, CV unlimited, or Ashcroft (when available). Since you are currently setup for stock hilux cv's (by the sound of it) you could buy some 27/30 spline longfields, and in the extremely unlikely event you ever broke one, carry some treated stock hilux CVs as spares.

Dave (beebee) on here has been running the 30/30 spline cro-mo longfields in his hilux for a couple of seasons of rock crawling (on 37" tyres), and hasn't managed to break one yet.

[james feeney]

G'day Wayne,

Andy and I had a similar set up to what you are talking about changing back to. We started using the one piece rr cv's from KAM along with strengthened shafts throughout but the stub had a sacrificial groove machined in it (think it made it around 30% weaker). These work really well and his truck is still running them after around 3 years. Haven't broken any cv's just a few stubs and one inner shaft. We broke about four stubs during the OBC (including a pair on the winch wall) but as a navi I'd far rather change ten of them than change a cv. We timed ourselves on changing a pair and managed it in under 4 minutes if I remember correctly.

I know a few guys running the Ashcroft CV's and they seem pleased to report no breakages so far. Dave has maybe made a breakthrough.

Dave, as for testing the units in Oz, Smithy would be your man having seen him in action for myself.

Or why not just fit Dynatrac Pro Rock 60's and forget about it?

[ashtrans]

Hi Dave,

If you want some seroius in field testing done, just send the shafts & CV's over, we don't try and break them, but if you play hard enough...
And I think you'll find ours is a fairly serious rig...

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

sorry the post came across a little curt it was late and I had just finished 3 big glasses of wine !

very kind offer to test our CV's but all the initial batch are already out in vehicles getting some miles on and hard abuse.

Ben, I cannot deny the hypoid is a stronger design but our business is making Rover axles stronger and the Pegging does help, the Jac Mac hypoids are very good but also very expensive.

As yet I have no real estimates on road life, whilst I would expect them to have a reasonable lifespan this is rarly an issue for this type of vehicle.

We are conducting 2 types of testing, 1) real World, ie in high level competition motors that are getting frequent usage and 2 ) on out workshop test rig,

the feedback from the real world testing consists of occasional phonecalls after events, very pleased, some forum posts on the UK ones but more often you willl get very little feedback until the day one breaks (hasn't happened yet !)

attached should be some photos of some testing done today on a new Genuine AEU 2522 and one of our 24/23 spline shafts, the CV failed at 4245 ft/lbs, the stub twisted, the bell split, the cage and inner fell into about 20 bits on disassembly, the shaft got chewed.

[Smithy jnr]

Hi Dave
Don't worry about the post, I was just shit stirring a little any way. The chrome moly cv's sound good but we have had a few guys with 6.0 ltr power hylux's try them and break them, as well as the longfields. I don't know anyone over here who has tried the Ashcroft CV's as yet.

I believe the rock crawling puts different load situations on the CV's to the winch challenge style of driving, I understand the rockcrawling rigs can sometimes get quite long life out of various CV's running up to 38 inch tyres, but one of the biggest differences is the weight of the vehicles. Fully loaded we run about 2.4 tonne, I think most rock crawling vehicles would be about half that weight. Don't think I 'm having a go at the rock crawling, I love it, I'm just pointing out some obvious differences.

With some of the competitions we have done we have noticed that places like Malaysia, where it is wet and slippery all the time, don't put much load on CV's, but the Outback has so much traction from rocks, sand etc that it laods the drive train up and finds the weak point.

In last years outback we blew up our rear diff, which was a pegged, 4.1 KAM crown wheel & Pinion with an ARB locker on day one in the sand, but it went bloody well up until that last 50 meters. We broke two stub axles and didn't bother changing either one untill that stage was finished. We can get stub changes down to two minutes with our rattle gun running off the car and they are still a cheap fix. The Lonfields and chrome moly CV options are pretty expensive , would you like to by 4 of them at once so you at least had spares in case they broke. THere is no way we would enter the outback without spares.

It would be nice not to change any like our Nissan mates, but its a Range Rover... These days even the Nissans are blowing up what was previously considered to be unbreakable GU CV's, the Australian conditions will find the weak spots in anyones drive train and in anyones driving style. In most situations we have been responsible for the breakages, some times even before it happened we have said I hope this holds up, nailed it and bang, oops...

The Ashcroft CV's sound great, I hope they are successfull as we would love to have a better option to what is currently used. What Spline configuration are they?

[DiscoDino]

There is a very important point said by Smithy - weight...

Its a MAJOR issue, and it'll turn the tables EVERY DAY...

Is there no way you can shave off from the 2.4 you just quoted?

[ISUZUROVER]

The Lonfields and chrome moly CV options are pretty expensive , would you like to by 4 of them at once so you at least had spares in case they broke. THere is no way we would enter the outback without spares.

That was why I suggested buying the 27/30 spline longfields (same as a stock hilux CV), then you can use haultech "wrongfield" hilux CVs as spares to save $$$.

The Ashcroft CV's sound great, I hope they are successfull as we would love to have a better option to what is currently used. What Spline configuration are they?

AFAIK thew will be a direct replacement for the 110 county CV (AEU2522), so 23 spline inner and a 24 spline stub.

Dave - thanks for the info. Are you willing to give any info on the rockwell hardness your CVs are?

[Snarba]

thanx for all the replies...more info than you could poke a broken stub axle at! and for interests sake these are for a buggy/truggy running on 38's so yes there is a great reduction in weight, probly why they have lasted this long( the c.v's )

[DiscoDino]

The Lonfields and chrome moly CV options are pretty expensive , would you like to by 4 of them at once so you at least had spares in case they broke. THere is no way we would enter the outback without spares.

That was why I suggested buying the 27/30 spline longfields (same as a stock hilux CV), then you can use haultech "wrongfield" hilux CVs as spares to save $$$.

That's why I run these 27 Chromo instead of the 30 spline - I can use a cheapo Toy CV copy in Lebanon for 23$ each brand new WITH grease - have yet to use them though since I installed the Longfields...

[tony cordell]

The Ashcroft CV's sound great, I hope they are successfull as we would love to have a better option to what is currently used. What Spline configuration are they?

23pline shaft end 24 spline drive members(AEU2522)
and a direct replacement for the weak ass 32 spline 300-TD5 variant
again 23 spline axle 24 spline drive member.