ignition system

[bad_religion_au]

OK, i was wheeling sunday, truck was running fine, drove off a little ledge, the car stalled, and wouldn't start again (not even the starter spinning)... so pop the bonnet, notice the starter wires are wrapped around the steering colum. plug them all in and the starter works, but getting no spark from the coil... fudge around and take it to a mates workshop.

had a poke around today, had no spark through the points, so i made sure the wire from the fusebox to the +ve on the coil had a nice jucy power flow.. it did. next i ran a new wire from the -ve on the coil to the distributer. still no spark through the points.

new condenser and points, i have spark through the points. replace the coil for good measure, and it starts but runs like it's only firing on 5 cylinders. pull the leads one by one and find cyl 2 and 3 don't appear to be contributing much. replace the leads on there, and back it out into the carpark to play with points gap. no matter how i set the points gap it still runs shit. now timing hasn't been touched at all.

so i swap the old coil back in to make sure it's not coil related. it runs just as poorly with the old coil... idles for a bit then the motor stops again. no spark from the high tension lead off the coil. throw the new coil back on, still no spark from the coil. test 2 other high tension leads, no spark.

so i still don't have a running truck. it gets spark through the points still, so i'm stuffed as to whats causing it. i've tried numerous points gaps and it won't spark out the coil anymore

yes i've checked fuses.

any other ideas?

[-Scott-]

I presume it's the old style points system with lobes and a rubbing block? (Can't remember ever seeing anything else...) If so, adjusting the gap also affects the timing.

Best bet is to set the gap with a dwell meter, then set your timing.

Good luck,

Scott

PS Hope you used grease on the block.

[bad_religion_au]

I presume it's the old style points system with lobes and a rubbing block? (Can't remember ever seeing anything else...) If so, adjusting the gap also affects the timing.

Best bet is to set the gap with a dwell meter, then set your timing.

Good luck,

Scott

PS Hope you used grease on the block.

old school system yes.

grease on the block yes.

if its timing, wouldn't it still get a spark from the coil lead? just at the wrong tim?

i'm getting no spark

[cloughy]

Rotor button, dizzy cap stuffed or little bit of carbon not poking out enough?

[-Scott-]

if its timing, wouldn't it still get a spark from the coil lead? just at the wrong tim?

i'm getting no spark

OK, so I didn't read your post properly.

Sounds like your points are sparking as they open - yes?

When you test the HT lead from the coil, you're definitely holding it near something earthed?

Does your truck have a ballast resistor? Is the coil the correct model? A non-ballast coil with a ballast in series won't spark as well during running.

I'm running out of ideas. Sparks will follow line of least resistance to ground, which can be something dirty. Unlikely to be the problem since you've tried so much new stuff, but give everything a thorough clean to be sure.

Good luck,

Scott

[V8Patrol]

It always amazes me how ppl jump right into "looking" for a problem that isnt there then get wound up in replacing everything that "may be" related without addressing the inital problem.....

OK, i was wheeling sunday, truck was running fine, drove off a little ledge, the car stalled, and wouldn't start again (not even the starter spinning)... so pop the bonnet, notice the starter wires are wrapped around the steering colum. plug them all in and the starter works, but getting no spark from the coil... fudge around and take it to a mates workshop.

had a poke around today, had no spark through the points, so i made sure the wire from the fusebox to the +ve on the coil had a nice jucy power flow.. it did. next i ran a new wire from the -ve on the coil to the distributer. still no spark through the points.

new condenser and points, i have spark through the points. replace the coil for good measure, and it starts but runs like it's only firing on 5 cylinders. pull the leads one by one and find cyl 2 and 3 don't appear to be contributing much. replace the leads on there, and back it out into the carpark to play with points gap. no matter how i set the points gap it still runs shit. now timing hasn't been touched at all.

so i swap the old coil back in to make sure it's not coil related. it runs just as poorly with the old coil... idles for a bit then the motor stops again. no spark from the high tension lead off the coil. throw the new coil back on, still no spark from the coil. test 2 other high tension leads, no spark.

so i still don't have a running truck. it gets spark through the points still, so i'm stuffed as to whats causing it. i've tried numerous points gaps and it won't spark out the coil anymore

yes i've checked fuses.

any other ideas?

A broken wire maybe ?????
A conector thats no-longer making full contact ?????
A wire thats been stretched to the point that the plastic sheild is broken and the copper wire is now earthing out ???
& posibally another half a dozen other posibilities caused by the "notice the starter wires are wrapped around the steering colum" inital problem......

Go back to what caused the problem in the first place and start from there.....
Remember......

OK, i was wheeling sunday, truck was running fine

So changing the points/leads/coil etc is about as efficent as removing the diff to fix the flat tyre.

Kingy

[bad_religion_au]

It always amazes me how ppl jump right into "looking" for a problem that isnt there then get wound up in replacing everything that "may be" related without addressing the inital problem.....


A broken wire maybe ?????
A conector thats no-longer making full contact ?????
A wire thats been stretched to the point that the plastic sheild is broken and the copper wire is now earthing out ???
& posibally another half a dozen other posibilities caused by the "notice the starter wires are wrapped around the steering colum" inital problem......

Go back to what caused the problem in the first place and start from there.....
Remember......

OK, i was wheeling sunday, truck was running fine

So changing the points/leads/coil etc is about as efficent as removing the diff to fix the flat tyre.

Kingy

Kingy, i thought it had to be to do with that, so i re ran ALL the wires, from fuse box to coil to dizzy, plus the ones that run coil - gas system and still no love. thats when i moved on to condensor/ points (my points were sh!t anyway). that's why i'm scratching my head now.

the wires around the steering colum was only one of 2 problems at the time of shutdown, the other being the copper bit off the top of the rotor button sheered off in the dizzy and arced out the points.

[bad_religion_au]

Rotor button, dizzy cap stuffed or little bit of carbon not poking out enough?

rotor button and cap were replaced

[Guy]

How is your earths ..
when you say re ran the wires, you sying you replaced em with new wires ? or just re attached the old ones ?

[bad_religion_au]

How is your earths ..
when you say re ran the wires, you sying you replaced em with new wires ? or just re attached the old ones ?

new wire, new connectors, cleaned up any terminals, especially the earths

[F'n_Rover]

It always amazes me how ppl jump right into "looking" for a problem that isnt there then get wound up in replacing everything that "may be" related without addressing the inital problem.....


A broken wire maybe ?????
A conector thats no-longer making full contact ?????
A wire thats been stretched to the point that the plastic sheild is broken and the copper wire is now earthing out ???
& posibally another half a dozen other posibilities caused by the "notice the starter wires are wrapped around the steering colum" inital problem......

Go back to what caused the problem in the first place and start from there.....
Remember......

OK, i was wheeling sunday, truck was running fine

So changing the points/leads/coil etc is about as efficent as removing the diff to fix the flat tyre.

Kingy

Kingy, i thought it had to be to do with that, so i re ran ALL the wires, from fuse box to coil to dizzy, plus the ones that run coil - gas system and still no love. thats when i moved on to condensor/ points (my points were sh!t anyway). that's why i'm scratching my head now.

the wires around the steering colum was only one of 2 problems at the time of shutdown, the other being the copper bit off the top of the rotor button sheered off in the dizzy and arced out the points.

Long shot, but when the dizzi siezed up - you could have possably sheared / slipped the drive gear ? I dont know if yours is cam driven or not, but worth a look.

[Loanrangie]

I would say the wiring was stretched when it caught on the steering column and broke the + wire hat supply's the coil, i have had this happen before.

[bad_religion_au]

dizzy spins, +ve wire was replaced...

[F'n_Rover]

dizzy spins, +ve wire was replaced...

Put a timing light on and check Just spinning means nothing.

[-Scott-]

dizzy spins, +ve wire was replaced...

Put a timing light on and check Just spinning means nothing.

Timing light won't work if there's no spark.

[bilby]

did you check that u didnt short out a battery cell ??

mite not be getting enuff kick outta it

[Modified Toy]

what was the voltage at the coil you said it was good but not how many volts were there?
and does the voltage drop off at all while cranking?

[F'n_Rover]

dizzy spins, +ve wire was replaced...

Put a timing light on and check Just spinning means nothing.

Timing light won't work if there's no spark.

There is spark,

Fark me, I reckon a bunch of 3 year old girls could get a points system working quicker Not farken brain surgery

[J Top]

Intermittant spark on new points, clean the corrosion protection off the contact faces.
Broke end off rotor arm?, why?, had you already had the cap off and not replaced it squarely, or had the rotor floated up to contact the cap. I would be checking the timing or pulling the dissy to check the drive gear roll pin. You can check your timing staticly with a test light and setting the crank on the marks.
J Top

[-Scott-]

i'm getting no spark

Are you getting spark?

[bad_religion_au]

if i open the points with a screwdriver with the ignition on i get spark at the points, there is no spark coming out the coil. i don't understand what you mean it spinning doesn't mean nothing. isn't all the dizzy shaft does is turn? yes the points are opening and closing as it turns

voltage at coil is 11.5 volts, have not tested it while cranking.

lack of spark problem occured before the new points went in, then it ran on the new points, now it's not running again

[F'n_Rover]

new condenser and points, i have spark through the points. replace the coil for good measure, and it starts but runs like it's only firing on 5 cylinders. pull the leads one by one and find cyl 2 and 3 don't appear to be contributing much. replace the leads on there, and back it out into the carpark to play with points gap. no matter how i set the points gap it still runs shit. now timing hasn't been touched at all.

sounds to me like you have spark.

just because the shaft is spinning dosn't mean the timing is right. check with a timing light. Just because you haven't adjusted the timing dosn't mean it hasn't gone out - especially since you had a part of the rotor come off inside. If you have a plastic gear on the dizzy shaft, this can slip cogs or strip or jump or all (when jammed ). Its either something obscure like above or you are missing something obvious. Or you have a flat battery. Turn your lights on when cranking - do they dim more than usual whilst turning over ?

[-Scott-]

11.5V - sounds a little low. But that's understandable...

When the points are closed, measure the voltage from the -ve terminal to ground.

I'm with J Top - clean the points with a points file. If they're cruddy they may be high resistance, so perhaps you're not getting ENOUGH current to create a spark from the coil?

Good luck,

Scott

[F'n_Rover]

Rotor button, dizzy cap stuffed or little bit of carbon not poking out enough?

rotor button and cap were replaced

Did you get the right rotor button ? check against the old.

[bad_religion_au]

new condenser and points, i have spark through the points. replace the coil for good measure, and it starts but runs like it's only firing on 5 cylinders. pull the leads one by one and find cyl 2 and 3 don't appear to be contributing much. replace the leads on there, and back it out into the carpark to play with points gap. no matter how i set the points gap it still runs shit. now timing hasn't been touched at all.

sounds to me like you have spark.

just because the shaft is spinning dosn't mean the timing is right. check with a timing light. Just because you haven't adjusted the timing dosn't mean it hasn't gone out - especially since you had a part of the rotor come off inside. If you have a plastic gear on the dizzy shaft, this can slip cogs or strip or jump or all (when jammed ). Its either something obscure like above or you are missing something obvious. Or you have a flat battery. Turn your lights on when cranking - do they dim more than usual whilst turning over ?

read further where i explain it stalled again and has no spark again. the battery seems fine, as after all that stuffing around i still drove it back into the workshop on it's starter.

yeah i got the right rotor button, it took me 4 parts shops because my dizzy isn't listed in their cataloges, but it's the right one

[bazzle]

Check the braided earth lead from dissy plate to case is still connected and OK.

bazzle

[V8Patrol]

So at this stage the spark is there however its intermittant from what I have read, so there must be a breakage somewhere in the system that was caused initally when the incodent originally occoured which was the
quote"drove off a little ledge" thingy......

secondly, youve replaced everything that is associated with that system, points coil, rotor, cap, & wire loom......

Thridly, it doesnt sound as if you've checked the timing at this stage.


So where else could it have gone pearshaped ???????

Is there a "balist resistor" in the ignition system ........ its a small ceramic block with a "spring" inside of it and its usally fitted between the coil and the power supply to the coil.
Its job is to drop the voltage running through the points, with only 6 volts in the points they last a lot longer than if there is 12V running through em.
The points will burn out far quicker with the full 12V.
A corroded balist resistor will alter voltage at the points & interfere with the coil. If the wire in the balist resistor is broken then there will be NO spark at all. In some cases the wire in the resistor has been super heated
so it looses its elasticity and when the wire breaks there is an intermittant supply of power from it or no power at all.

Most systems that use points will have a balist resistor fitted in the line somewhere, generally its fitted well up on the inner guard away from engine heat and out of the way of moisture comming through the radiator. Occasionally they are fitted on the firewall but usually when there is a protective engine component shielding it.

Next .........
Have you by passed the vehicles ignition system and done a direct power supply run ????
Run wires direct from the battery to the coil and start it..... the engine should run if the problem is in the loom side of things ( by running direct wires youve by passed the problem ),
if it doesnt run then its obviously from the coil point of the system onwards.

Timing .......
obviously checking the timing with no spark and a timing light wont work...... so instead pull #1 plug out and pack a small piece of paper crushed up into a ball in the plug hole....... make it a tight fit ...... but dont push that hard that it goes into the cylinder.
Remove the coil lead so it WONT FIRE.
Then crank the motor over in short / quick bursts ( you are trying to rotate the crank through 90 degres only per turn of the key not spin it a dozen times )
STOP cranking when you hear a loud "POP", ( when the engine comes up to TDC (Top Dead Centre) it forces tha bit of paper out).
place a screw driver in the plughole and roll the crank back n forth to ensure that the engine is @ TDC, you'll feel the screwdriver moving up n down on the top of the piston.

Once you have TDC check the rotor is pointing to the #1 lead on the dizzy cap........... if it is then the timing should be close enough to fire and run the engine.
if not then adjust either the dizzy to suit or move the leads to the correct position and try firing the engine again, if it still wont fire call "Houston .... cause we have a problem"


If none of the above has fixed it the its gunna get ugly and probably expensive too...... other causes ......
1/ broken rollpin through the drive gear on the dizzy shaft.
remove dizzy and replace pin
2/ twisted dizzy shaft.
replace dizzy
3/ camshaft drive chain or belt has jumped a tooth or 3
replace chain/belt and reset timing
4/ drive gear on camshaft has moved ( 3F yota motors along with may others, use a plastic gear "glued" to an alloy bush which then attatches to the cam, the plastic bit can move up if a sudden jolt is sent through the motor ) .... PS, this is rare but does happen !
to check for this remove the rocker cover and with the motor on TDC on #1 check that the rockers are in the correct position for firing ( IE both inlet & exhaust vales CLOSED ) .... if they are not in the right position then its time to rip the front of the engine off replace the top cog on the cam ( @ $150+ each thankyou vey much ) + a new drive chain/belt, + new gaskets, + resetting the timing etc.

Have a nice day

Kingy

[bad_religion_au]

So at this stage the spark is there however its intermittant from what I have read, so there must be a breakage somewhere in the system that was caused initally when the incodent originally occoured which was the
quote"drove off a little ledge" thingy......

secondly, youve replaced everything that is associated with that system, points coil, rotor, cap, & wire loom......

Thridly, it doesnt sound as if you've checked the timing at this stage.


So where else could it have gone pearshaped ???????

Is there a "balist resistor" in the ignition system ........ its a small ceramic block with a "spring" inside of it and its usally fitted between the coil and the power supply to the coil.
Its job is to drop the voltage running through the points, with only 6 volts in the points they last a lot longer than if there is 12V running through em.
The points will burn out far quicker with the full 12V.
A corroded balist resistor will alter voltage at the points & interfere with the coil. If the wire in the balist resistor is broken then there will be NO spark at all. In some cases the wire in the resistor has been super heated
so it looses its elasticity and when the wire breaks there is an intermittant supply of power from it or no power at all.

Most systems that use points will have a balist resistor fitted in the line somewhere, generally its fitted well up on the inner guard away from engine heat and out of the way of moisture comming through the radiator. Occasionally they are fitted on the firewall but usually when there is a protective engine component shielding it.

Next .........
Have you by passed the vehicles ignition system and done a direct power supply run ????
Run wires direct from the battery to the coil and start it..... the engine should run if the problem is in the loom side of things ( by running direct wires youve by passed the problem ),
if it doesnt run then its obviously from the coil point of the system onwards.

Timing .......
obviously checking the timing with no spark and a timing light wont work...... so instead pull #1 plug out and pack a small piece of paper crushed up into a ball in the plug hole....... make it a tight fit ...... but dont push that hard that it goes into the cylinder.
Remove the coil lead so it WONT FIRE.
Then crank the motor over in short / quick bursts ( you are trying to rotate the crank through 90 degres only per turn of the key not spin it a dozen times )
STOP cranking when you hear a loud "POP", ( when the engine comes up to TDC (Top Dead Centre) it forces tha bit of paper out).
place a screw driver in the plughole and roll the crank back n forth to ensure that the engine is @ TDC, you'll feel the screwdriver moving up n down on the top of the piston.

Once you have TDC check the rotor is pointing to the #1 lead on the dizzy cap........... if it is then the timing should be close enough to fire and run the engine.
if not then adjust either the dizzy to suit or move the leads to the correct position and try firing the engine again, if it still wont fire call "Houston .... cause we have a problem"


If none of the above has fixed it the its gunna get ugly and probably expensive too...... other causes ......
1/ broken rollpin through the drive gear on the dizzy shaft.
remove dizzy and replace pin
2/ twisted dizzy shaft.
replace dizzy
3/ camshaft drive chain or belt has jumped a tooth or 3
replace chain/belt and reset timing
4/ drive gear on camshaft has moved ( 3F yota motors along with may others, use a plastic gear "glued" to an alloy bush which then attatches to the cam, the plastic bit can move up if a sudden jolt is sent through the motor ) .... PS, this is rare but does happen !
to check for this remove the rocker cover and with the motor on TDC on #1 check that the rockers are in the correct position for firing ( IE both inlet & exhaust vales CLOSED ) .... if they are not in the right position then its time to rip the front of the engine off replace the top cog on the cam ( @ $150+ each thankyou vey much ) + a new drive chain/belt, + new gaskets, + resetting the timing etc.

Have a nice day

Kingy

thanks kingy, that's more to poke at when i get access to it again (locked in a mates factory at the moment and he's in newcastle now).

i'm suspecting the dizzy might be sh!t...

[fnqcairns]

Just a couple of things to try check the graphite button in the centre of the distributer cap is doing its job and in the dead of night fire it up and look for little light shows - best diagnostic tool ever that one, even before problems become noticable.

cheers fnq

[bad_religion_au]

ok pulled the dizzy right apart, the shaft had too much play, so it wasn't opening the points long enough. according to the parts stores, my distributer doesn't exist, so i ran a spare one a mates had sitting around. it's down on power (needs to be timed to suit the gas i think). i think the timing is really retarded (on start up it occasionally feels like the starter is fighting against something, so maybe it's sparking just before the top of the stroke. but it runs.