Gearbox removal stalemate

[sudso]

I'm at the end of my tether

I need to remove the gearbox from my Rodeo to diagnose the clutch problem proper. (not disengaging at all after silty muddy water got in through those idiotic foam breathers!)

Hello Isuzu! This is a 4WD!

Everything that needs to be undone and removed is done,
but it feels like the gearbox is "superglued" to the engine block and wont budge.
There's nowhere to try and pry the two apart either.
Oh to meet a Rodeo designer in a dark alley right now

If anyone can help with tips that will be fantastic, if not, I'll have to get it towed to a mechanics with a hoist.

The gearbox is the MUA5C with 3.2 V6.
The clutch is different: A pull type clutch (pressure plate works in reverse to conventional clutches to disengage)

cheers
Sudso

[99Rodeo]

Have you tried putting a couple of bolts back into the bellhousing loosly and the put your jack under the back of the gearbox and jack it up. The weight of the gearbox may help it part company with the engine, unless it is dowelled to the engine

Is there a weep hole i nthe bottom of the bellhousing that you can lever it with?

Is there an inspection hole that you can lever through?

If it does come apart use never sieze on all mating surfaces and bolt when reassembling. Makes life much easier if it happens again

[rainsey]

Must be the same engineer that designed the guards!!!

Gee.. I am looking at the workshop manual now and the steps are probably how you have already done them:-

1: Remove the gear shif leaver & Transfer case lever
2: Remove the transfer case protector (I never had one in the first place)
3: Drain transmission .. yabba yabba yabba
4: Remove the exhause pipe
5: Then the prop shaft front & back
6: The slave cylinder
7: The support the engine from above
8: remove cross member & rear engine mount
9: Remove starter motor
10: Remove transmission bolts

Then 'carefully pull back transmission'

Say sudso, are you supporting the engine.. as if there is rear downward pressure from the main shaft to the engine, they could be binding ... but still you should get a bit of give between the bell housing and the engine.

My only other thought would be if the starter is not removed it could be fowling??

Sorry buddy, my only thought!

Cheers

Rainsey

[Yarno]

I usually find if the box wont move there is a bolt still in it somewhere...

When all the bolts are out it will move easily from the engine with a little shaking of the box.

[sudso]

Thanks guys, I just looked at the drawings in the manual again (instructions leave too much out)

It looks like there may be 2 more bolts inside the bellhousing at the bottom, in front of the flywheel, bolted to the motor, accessible through the removable plate with that !!**##"!! foam seal, maybe it's just the drawing only showing the 2 bottom bellhousing bolts which are out anyway.
I cant get anything through that hole anyway, the crossmember is in the way and vehicle stands are under it so I'll have to reposition the stands to remove it.

Your'e right Rainsey, the same designer

99Rodeo, I have lifted the whole trans. from the rear and given it a good shake for good measure and i have let enough droop as well the other way. Still wont budge.

Yes the bellhousing has 4 dowels and Holdens tell me they are a damn tight fit and wished me luck.

The 2 Holden dealers around here have never removed the box with a pull type clutch (only on V6's) and hinted they didnt want to touch it. As if I want them to.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
The workshop who replaced the clutch 15 months ago is 200kms away and it was $650 just for labor (previous owners damage).

I'll persavere, I'll tow it up to my mates hoist tomorrow night for a decent look and hopefully get it off.

[Timbo(Rodeo)]

I have taken my gearbox out by myself. I actually removed the front cross member that is between the suspension lower arms. Helps with getting the bolts out.

[sudso]

I have taken my gearbox out by myself. I actually removed the front cross member that is between the suspension lower arms. Helps with getting the bolts out.

You're welcome to get mine out

[lay80n]

Remember that the rodeo uses a pull style clutch!!!!! Remove the inspection plate on the LHS of the bell houseing, and get a cmall long screwdriver. Wiggle it in and look up the hole. You will see the pivot pin for the clutch fork. This is held in by a cmall split pin. Lever the split pin out and the fork will drop away. This allows the box to slide out. If you have still got a problem removing the box i use to work at a holden dealership and did shitloads of these, so feel free to ask.
Layto....

[sudso]

Remember that the rodeo uses a pull style clutch!!!!! Remove the inspection plate on the LHS of the bell houseing, and get a cmall long screwdriver. Wiggle it in and look up the hole. You will see the pivot pin for the clutch fork. This is held in by a cmall split pin. Lever the split pin out and the fork will drop away. This allows the box to slide out. If you have still got a problem removing the box i use to work at a holden dealership and did shitloads of these, so feel free to ask.
Layto....

Thanks lay80n, you've dobbed yourself in now!
Yes I was made aware of the necessity to remove the fork pivot pin on Wednesday night by a mechanic friend of mine, a Toyota one mind you but nevertheless he has done one of these before and remembered the procedure.
He has a 2 post hoist at home which it's on it now but he has a crook shoulder so he's going to borrow the trans jack from work this week so we can get the box out.
Ever tried to lift the MUA5C box out with a mate! I was keen anyway.

Herein lies the problem: I went through some very silty muddy water about 900mm deep a month ago and slowly the clutch faded after that. Nothing in the manual about foam breathers around the bellhousing!
Clutch pedal travel became less and less until there was none and the clutch doesnt disengage at all now.
I can move the fork back and forwards through the inspection hole by hand and it looks like the thrust bearing carrier is moving separately from the wedge collar. Hard to see what the problem is though until the box is out.

lay80n what do you think might be the problem?
I was quoted $146 just for a friggin thrust bearing from Holdens, I hope I dont have to replace the whole clutch!
The clutch was replaced with a new one in January last year by the previous owner, I found his reciept and he was charged $650 just for labour and this was not a Holder Dealer. I can understand the time it would take though after pulling the necessary parts off to get the box out myself.
So I'm hoping the main clutch components are ok as it's only done about 25K.

One more thing, how the frig do you get the spring clip back in the fork pin on reassembly, it looks almost impossible with the space in there!
OR, does it go back together before the box goes in and the bearing carrier snap locks in the wedge collar when you push the gearbox back in?

Cheers
sudso

[99Rodeo]

With the effort and headaches that its taken to get the gearbox out replace the clutch plate while you can

[lay80n]

Remember that the rodeo uses a pull style clutch!!!!! Remove the inspection plate on the LHS of the bell houseing, and get a cmall long screwdriver. Wiggle it in and look up the hole. You will see the pivot pin for the clutch fork. This is held in by a cmall split pin. Lever the split pin out and the fork will drop away. This allows the box to slide out. If you have still got a problem removing the box i use to work at a holden dealership and did shitloads of these, so feel free to ask.
Layto....

Thanks lay80n, you've dobbed yourself in now!
Yes I was made aware of the necessity to remove the fork pivot pin on Wednesday night by a mechanic friend of mine, a Toyota one mind you but nevertheless he has done one of these before and remembered the procedure.
He has a 2 post hoist at home which it's on it now but he has a crook shoulder so he's going to borrow the trans jack from work this week so we can get the box out.
Ever tried to lift the MUA5C box out with a mate! I was keen anyway.

Herein lies the problem: I went through some very silty muddy water about 900mm deep a month ago and slowly the clutch faded after that. Nothing in the manual about foam breathers around the bellhousing!
Clutch pedal travel became less and less until there was none and the clutch doesnt disengage at all now.
I can move the fork back and forwards through the inspection hole by hand and it looks like the thrust bearing carrier is moving separately from the wedge collar. Hard to see what the problem is though until the box is out.

lay80n what do you think might be the problem?
I was quoted $146 just for a friggin thrust bearing from Holdens, I hope I dont have to replace the whole clutch!
The clutch was replaced with a new one in January last year by the previous owner, I found his reciept and he was charged $650 just for labour and this was not a Holder Dealer. I can understand the time it would take though after pulling the necessary parts off to get the box out myself.
So I'm hoping the main clutch components are ok as it's only done about 25K.

One more thing, how the frig do you get the spring clip back in the fork pin on reassembly, it looks almost impossible with the space in there!
OR, does it go back together before the box goes in and the bearing carrier snap locks in the wedge collar when you push the gearbox back in?

Cheers
sudso

It is possible for the throw out bearing clip (the one that conects it to the fork) to fall apart, meaning that the fork no longer pulls on the diaphram spring. How is your hydraylic system too for the clutch?? When you get the gearbox off inspect the pressure plate, in the centre of the diaphram spring. This is where the clip that holds the throw out bearing to the clutch and allows it to "pull" on the plate to release the clutch. If this little collar that locats in the centre of the diaphram is damaged or fallen out, it will result in no clutch. From you description i would guess that this is the problem. From memory to re-fit the little locating ring back into the pressure plate you have to release the pressure in the diaphram spring by removing the pressure plate (or loosening it off heaps at least). Makes sure to do this in a star pattern just a few turns at a time (like the pattern for wheel nuts if you get what im mean) otherwise you might damage the clutch. Basically just loosen the place off, re-fit hte locking ring, then tighten the pressure plate up again. If this does not lock the ring in place, chances are that ist fcuked and you up for replacement. Depending on condition of clutch, a replacement might be worth considering too.When you put the gearbox and clutch back in, the throwout bearing goes on the gearbox as per a usual push style, and when you put the box back in, you then put a screw driver or similar up and push the clutch fork backwards so the clip engages the clutch diaphram spring. MAKE SURE THAT IT ENGAGES before continuing, otehrwise you will just be pulling it all out again. Feel free to PM me with anythign else, though my memory isnt the best. If you have pics i can have a look at them and show ya what i mean if that helps.
Layto...

[sudso]

Thanks for that layt0
There is a round wire clip that holds the thrust bearing carrier to the wedge collar onto the pressure plate and I think that may be buggered or it's come out.
I'm going to try and remove the gearbox without removing the fork 1st. If it comes out, bearing and all I'll know the problem is with the wedge collar or retaining clip.
If it stays put then I'll have to take out the fork.
I gather the fork is all reassembled in the bellhousing before the box goes back in then?


My wife and I pretty much bled the whole system til it was flushed right through, damper cylinder and slave. I also took the slave apart and cleaned it in brake fluid just in case water had got in there but it hadn't.
I'm satisfied the hydraulic side of things are fine.

99Rodeo yes, I will definitely replace any component that is stuffed, hopefully the clutch and pressure plate is all ok although it had developed a bit of a shudder a few days after the water entry so who knows.

cheers
sudso

[lay80n]

From what your saying , i rekon that the clip that holds the thrust bearing to the pressure plate has crapped it.
Layto....

[sudso]

It probably rusted away or didn't like grit getting into it

Bloody stupid Isuzu Puttin foam breathers on a bellhousing on a friggin 4WD that's supposed to go through deep puddles

[sudso]

Got the gearbox out last night.
Didn't have to remove the fork, sort of just come out the bearing carrier as we pulled box back.
The wedge collar and clip came out with it, Herein was the main problem.
The thrust bearing is spinning but noisy and rooted.
It also spins eccentric to the carrier housing, might explain the shudder when I released the clutch.
The wedge collar etc. all looks ok but it's all pretty loose causing the loss of clutch pedal travel.
Everything has surface rust on it of course
Clutch plate hasn't much meat left
Pressure plate looks ok
Flywheel needs machining

All looks like water and high heat together has stuffed it.
Looks like a PITA to seal everything up so I'll get a cheap air compressor and pressurise the bellhousing when I go through water and mud again. Pressure build up will exit out the foam seals and keep the shit out.

Got a new Daikin/Exedy Safari Tuff heavy duty clutch kit arriving tonight, it includes the wedge collar and clips etc. I hope these are good clutches, they are not cheap!

The local truck repairs is going to reface the flywheel tomorrow and the lip that the p/plate bolts to. These have to have the same amount off each

[Utemad]

I bet your happy it's finally out

If you are going to pressurise the bell housing I reckon you would need a fair amount of airflow. It is a big space.

If you are doing mud racing or fast water crossings etc I imagine that the stuff coming in would be at a fairly high pressure. You would need to have the air coming out at a higher pressure.

I reckon I would set up a good compressor with a tank. I can't see it working any other way. Would only be good for short bursts though I would imagine.

Probably best to seal it all up as best you can and have a threaded hole with a removeable bolt arrangement like a manual Discovery. Just need to remember to insert the bolt before you go into mud or water but to take it out again in case your rear main seal leaks.

[Guzzi]

Sudso,
Ill join you when you track the designer down.
Want to bet the same genius designed the seal system on the front axle?
Oh you havent looked in there yet have you, bugger .

Make you wonder what they think 4x4 get used for, in Isuzus case I think its the slippery 50m of muddy soil from the road to the work site after it rains.
Would have loved to read the design brief.
Im only half kidding about the front axle seals,they only seem to seal water IN. Worth checking especially if your going to make a habit of satisfying your submariners fetish.

Pete

[Timbo(Rodeo)]

Good to hear you got it out Sudso.
I think you jinxed me though. I lost my clutch on Thursday. Had to drive about 30k's home through Hobart CBD changing on the revs
It has been leaking fluid for a while, about half the resevoir over a couple of weeks, I had topped it up on Sunday last week and was driving around, and the pedal started to feel strange then it just went to the floor. I thought it might have been the master cylinder, as I had done the slave about 2 years ago.
So I pulled the master out, and it was fine. So went and got a new slave cylinder complete. Figured at $50 for a kit, and $90 for complete was better.
It was, as the slave was well stuffed. Slightly rusted at the opening.
New one in, and bled up. She's all good again.

[lay80n]

Good to hear you got it out in the end dude. Make sure that the throwout bearing engages the collar correctly when you re-fit it, before comtinuing with the install. If it pulls the collar out or doesnt feel right, pull the box out and check it. Otherwise you will be doing it all again when you realise you got no clutch. You have no idea how many new blokes did this when i used to work for holden.
Layto....

[sudso]

Good to hear you got it out in the end dude. Make sure that the throwout bearing engages the collar correctly when you re-fit it, before comtinuing with the install. If it pulls the collar out or doesnt feel right, pull the box out and check it. Otherwise you will be doing it all again when you realise you got no clutch. You have no idea how many new blokes did this when i used to work for holden.
Layto....

Do I put the collar in the pressure plate centre or on the thrust bearing carrier when I reassemble it all?

cheers

[sudso]

Good to hear you got it out Sudso.
I think you jinxed me though. I lost my clutch on Thursday. Had to drive about 30k's home through Hobart CBD changing on the revs
It has been leaking fluid for a while, about half the resevoir over a couple of weeks, I had topped it up on Sunday last week and was driving around, and the pedal started to feel strange then it just went to the floor. I thought it might have been the master cylinder, as I had done the slave about 2 years ago.
So I pulled the master out, and it was fine. So went and got a new slave cylinder complete. Figured at $50 for a kit, and $90 for complete was better.
It was, as the slave was well stuffed. Slightly rusted at the opening.
New one in, and bled up. She's all good again.

Sorry bout that ol chap
Yeah I'm still a bit suspicious of my slave cyl. Will find out on Saturday when it all goes back together.

[sudso]

Sudso,
Ill join you when you track the designer down.
Want to bet the same genius designed the seal system on the front axle?
Oh you havent looked in there yet have you, bugger .

Make you wonder what they think 4x4 get used for, in Isuzus case I think its the slippery 50m of muddy soil from the road to the work site after it rains.
Would have loved to read the design brief.
Im only half kidding about the front axle seals,they only seem to seal water IN. Worth checking especially if your going to make a habit of satisfying your submariners fetish.

Pete

Uh oh! So what should I be looking for? got any pic's?

[sudso]

I bet your happy it's finally out

If you are going to pressurise the bell housing I reckon you would need a fair amount of airflow. It is a big space.

If you are doing mud racing or fast water crossings etc I imagine that the stuff coming in would be at a fairly high pressure. You would need to have the air coming out at a higher pressure.

I reckon I would set up a good compressor with a tank. I can't see it working any other way. Would only be good for short bursts though I would imagine.

Probably best to seal it all up as best you can and have a threaded hole with a removeable bolt arrangement like a manual Discovery. Just need to remember to insert the bolt before you go into mud or water but to take it out again in case your rear main seal leaks.

You bet! I'll be even happier when I can get behind the wheel again!

Yeah it's a big space but you'd be surprised at how much of that empty space the pull type clutch displaces. I'll do a test with my cheapy air comp. 1st. and see how long it takes to push air out of the one breather I wont seal. That will be the one at the bottom of the bellhousing so I can see any oil leaks come through.

I replaced the spigot bearing and rear main seal as well last night so I dont think I'll get a rear main leak for a while although the old one one was weeping a bit.

I put some Hi temp. black silicone on the seals up the sides where they meet the bellhousing last night, will do the rest as it goes back together.

Put a new high pressure seal in the steering box too as that was leaking after the comp. Dont know if it shit itself because of the bog holes water temp hitting it or the strain of comp work. probably both
Was a bit of a laugh, my mechanic mate, who has kindly let me use his car hoist at his home and made things easier for me, was trying to blow out the stuffed seal with compressed air and said, "mate it 's not gonna come out cause the seal is leaking" Yes mate thats why I'm replacing it ah well it was getting late.

Tanks for the tips utemad.

[sudso]

For anyone who can put up pic's for me>

Once I get my DVD ROM thingy working again I'll capture some stills from the comp. at Naracoorte and email em to someone who would like to put them up here for me.

Cheers

[sudso]

Jobs all done and its back on the road finally!

Thanks fella's

[Utemad]

Almost 1 month from start to finish. That's gotta suck.

[sudso]

Almost 1 month from start to finish. That's gotta suck.

But with all the other stuff I did while it was apart I reckon I saved a couple of grand in mechanics labor, which would've sucked even more if I paid one.

Yeah, getting lifts all the time and driving the missus' magna for a month sucked.
Glad I did it myself though, I learned more about my vehicle and we got better aquainted