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Searched, didnt come up with the answer I need, so
Turbos and Superchargers can both suffer from heat issues - we all know that.
What I would like to know,
1) Does the heat issues with a blower change with the motorsize?
EG (diesels) A blower on a 3ltr would it be the better/worse/same as on a 6.6ltr (I know there are many variables with it, but in this example the are the same)
2) Does the more/less Cylinders make a difference to the overheating on a blown donk.
EG: 4cyl better/worse than V8
I have found info by googling, but I've also found 3 different sites with totally the opposite information on them which isn't suprising :(
With a turbo you have heating from the exhaust (through the turbine housing) and adiabatic heating caused by the change in pressure.
So in general, the heat of the air coming out of both compressors (turbo/super) will be proportional to the amount of boost, with the turbo air slightly hotter because of heating through the turbine.
There shouldn't really be any relationship between engine size and heat. Only boost pressure and heat.
I no longer remember why but some of the European manufacturers prefer turbos on diesels and supers on petrol.
I've always believed that superchargers can give better throttle response, but gearing for throttle response and top end power is still a problem.
I also find it interesting that circuit racers and long haul trucks generally use turbochargers, drag racers seem to prefer superchargers.
For a 4by, I'd expect a supercharger to be a better option. Gear it for low rpm boost, should still have decent boost for top-gear overtaking, and forget about high rev performance - which is probably not an issue for most diesels anyway.
9psi supercharged patrol wagon 4.2 diesel with extractors and 3" zorst 3.9 gears and 33" BFG mudz weighing in at 2.7ton loaded with drawers and tools
it does get warm when getting revved almost seems it doesn't like to get revved ... and when the belts get wet it squeals a bit.... normal driving around town its has great take off power but it has shit top end power for over taking on the highway great once its up to speed great for towing
only thing i would change is to put another muffler in the exhaust its fawkin loud. sound phat tho ... and the supercharger whines through the snorkle .. like a megaphone and its bulky in the engine bay... off road the low rpm torque is a phenom it pulls the wagon up some pretty wicked hills easily
I think for some more ponies and to cool it down some a intercooler would help
the ute balanced TD42 safari turbo and intercooler kit (T3) hiflowed 15psi
injectors and injector pump modded to suit + electric fuel pump 3" zorst
4.1 gears and 35s weighing heaps less then the wagon
this thing shits on the wagon big time obviously
i wouldn't complain about turbo lag such a non issue i reckon with diesels
great power through the rev range and when u want to play just put the foot down its got no dramas smokin up 35s in 2nd ... 2 totally different setups i know but i would take a turbo kit on a 4wd diesel any day easier to modify and play with
H( * )( * )NZ loves B( * )( * )BIES
if a fat lady falls in the forest do the trees laugh?
[quote="RUFF"]although i didnt mean to, i squealed like a girl :armsup:[/quote]
Hoonz wrote:but i would take a turbo kit on a 4wd diesel any day easier to modify and play with
Good point Hoonz. While a supercharger has the advantage that it works from idle, you can't adjust the boost very easily (usually only by changing gear sizes and belts). Most turbo systems these days have very little lag, and are more efficient, since most of the energy contained in the exhaust is wasted.
Superchargers seem to be popular on V8's mainly because they are so easy to fit, whereas turbos are much more complex. ANd for drag cars that want instant acceleration without any lag then superchargers are of course better.
The ultimate option would be what some of the racing trucks use - twin turbos AND twin superchargers - and probably about 100psi boost!!!
Thanks for the comparo Hoonz, it is pretty much what I was lookin for....
if I do go the 6.5 Chev, they recommend not going with the Turbo for most offroaders, as it suffers from overheating in outback travel :( which is the direction the new truck will take. So was wonderin if a blower would have been an option.
Thanks for the comparo Hoonz, it is pretty much what I was lookin for....
if I do go the 6.5 Chev, they recommend not going with the Turbo for most offroaders, as it suffers from overheating in outback travel :( which is the direction the new truck will take. So was wonderin if a blower would have been an option.
I'll see how the NA GQ drives in morning.
Thanks again.
6.5 NA in a GU wagon pulls slightly harder then the supercharged 4.2 in my GQ wagon .... theres another comparo for ya
ps get a bigger radiator a PWR one or the likes for the 6.5 anyhow they do run hot
i just found some figures i wrote down aaages ago of the ute
just after the rebuild it could pull 60 in second and 110 in third quite easily
the wagon pulls 40 in second and 80 in third
so thats turbo powah for you ... also ...
turbo is free power
super charger uses power to gain power ...
if turbo blows up .. unbolt it keep driving ...
if super charger blows up ... ur fuct
H( * )( * )NZ loves B( * )( * )BIES
if a fat lady falls in the forest do the trees laugh?
[quote="RUFF"]although i didnt mean to, i squealed like a girl :armsup:[/quote]
Hoonz wrote:i just found some figures i wrote down aaages ago of the ute
just after the rebuild it could pull 60 in second and 110 in third quite easily
the wagon pulls 40 in second and 80 in third
so thats turbo powah for you ...
No. That's gearing and rev limits. My Sigma pulls 80 in second and 120 in third - and the b!tch doesn't pull to the redline.
thats slightly past redline ...
also thats 35s on stock 4.1 gearing
H( * )( * )NZ loves B( * )( * )BIES
if a fat lady falls in the forest do the trees laugh?
[quote="RUFF"]although i didnt mean to, i squealed like a girl :armsup:[/quote]
well mick I don't know what thread you're talking about but I have probably had something to say about the topic before in general and/or toyota.
Bruce the chev V8 diesels are pretty old school and even the turbo 6.5 is indirect injected* which severely limits the amout of boost you can safely and reliably run. They are a lot of $ for not a great motor in my opinion but they do make buckets of torque for reasonable (but certainly not spectacular) fuel consumption. a TD42, properly built, turboed and intercooled will give similar reults without the weight penalty and generally higher reliability. It is a great shame that Nissan does not offer a large, direct injected diesel for its 4WDs as the patrol is one platform that is desperately crying out for it - unfortunately Nissan chooses to continue it's legacy of underperforming diesels in patrols. anyway all that aside, the debate between turbo and crankshaft driven supercharging will rage eternal. In the end, it comes down to personal preference. Turbos are generally more efficient and that means that under most conditions the air from a turbo is cooler than that from a supercharger. A supercharger is effectively running all the time and you can't switch it off, so is always costing you something to run it. a turbo, if you lift your foot off the go pedal, stops working and just cuts a little noise from the exhaust. Superchargers are a mechanical load on the crankshaft and as such the maximum power available from a particular crankshaft must be split between driving the wheels and driving the crankshaft - a turbo is a much softer option for cranksfat loading. It's true superchargers do make boost right off idle, and instantaneously at any rpm - for that they can not be beaten, however a turbo correctly matched to a diesel engine will make boost from very low rpm (eg my 1HD-FT makes 4psi at 1000rpm and 15psi by about 2000rpm with the factory turbo) but the gradual application of boost with a turbo minimises shock loading of the drivetrain so kW for kW/ Nm for Nm it's softer on the gearbox and diffs. installation, intercooling and plumbing is generally easier witha turbo since you can mount it wherever you want. With V8 supercharger installations, intercooling is difficult and usually limited to small water/air units between the charger and the inlet. superchargers are big $$ and need maintenance to keep them alive, turbos need oil changes just like motors. turbos small and light, superchargers big and heavy. turbo - to change boost, fit a $50 boost controller in 10 minutes and fiddle. superchager - to change boost, change the pulleys, change the belt, spend a whole weekend to get 2 more psi and find that you've exceeded the efficient range of the supercharger so you need a bigger supercharger or go back to the old boost. There's no denying crankshaft driven superchargers have their place for specific applications but turbos are cheaper, easier and unless you have buckets of cash to spend on R&D or buying an engineered solution, turbos are hard to beat.
all that said, if power is what you want, forget diesel. I am probaby the biggest diesel evangelist on outerlimits but if power is what you want, strap al LS1 under the bonnet, there are twin turbo kits for that motor, you'll get a thousand horspower for under ten thousand dollars which is pretty good power to $ ratio. If you want power, it has to come from fuel, petrol or diesel, and if you want big power you'll use a lot of either. you can get more power for less $ and less weight from a petrol engine, so if the bottom line is top performace, giving diesel the flick is a good idea.
* I have heard that there are DI heads/pistons/injectors etc available. I know nothing of the truth or otherwise of this rumour.
Thanks for the comparo Hoonz, it is pretty much what I was lookin for....
if I do go the 6.5 Chev, they recommend not going with the Turbo for most offroaders, as it suffers from overheating in outback travel :( which is the direction the new truck will take. So was wonderin if a blower would have been an option.
I'll see how the NA GQ drives in morning.
Thanks again.
6.5 NA in a GU wagon pulls slightly harder then the supercharged 4.2 in my GQ wagon .... theres another comparo for ya
ps get a bigger radiator a PWR one or the likes for the 6.5 anyhow they do run hot
i just found some figures i wrote down aaages ago of the ute
just after the rebuild it could pull 60 in second and 110 in third quite easily
the wagon pulls 40 in second and 80 in third
so thats turbo powah for you ... also ...
turbo is free power
super charger uses power to gain power ...
if turbo blows up .. unbolt it keep driving ...
if super charger blows up ... ur fuct
wtf mayte?
turbo isn't completely free, it just uses less power to turn the turbo then it does to turn the supercharger.
if turbo blows up, assuming nothing like the comp wheel went through the motor and fucked it royally, you can keep driving
if the supercharger blows up, assuming you havnt broken anythiing else in the process, remove the belt and the motor will keep running without it.
if the supercharger blows up, assuming you havnt broken anythiing else in the process, remove the belt and the motor will keep running without it.
s/c are mechanical and if it stuffs up how does the engine get its air? i would have thought you would have to take the belt off and redirect the air intake so it is not going through the s/c? i am not sure if an engine would like "sucking" air through a siezed roots s/c. i assume it depends on what type of s/c you are using.
i have an excellent book on supercharging by corkey bell. if anyone wants to s/c or t/c their cars i recommend they read his very inmformative books.
Thanks for the comparo Hoonz, it is pretty much what I was lookin for....
if I do go the 6.5 Chev, they recommend not going with the Turbo for most offroaders, as it suffers from overheating in outback travel :( which is the direction the new truck will take. So was wonderin if a blower would have been an option.
I'll see how the NA GQ drives in morning.
Thanks again.
6.5 NA in a GU wagon pulls slightly harder then the supercharged 4.2 in my GQ wagon .... theres another comparo for ya
ps get a bigger radiator a PWR one or the likes for the 6.5 anyhow they do run hot
i just found some figures i wrote down aaages ago of the ute
just after the rebuild it could pull 60 in second and 110 in third quite easily
the wagon pulls 40 in second and 80 in third
so thats turbo powah for you ... also ...
turbo is free power
super charger uses power to gain power ...
if turbo blows up .. unbolt it keep driving ...
if super charger blows up ... ur fuct
wtf mayte?
turbo isn't completely free, it just uses less power to turn the turbo then it does to turn the supercharger.
if turbo blows up, assuming nothing like the comp wheel went through the motor and ***** it royally, you can keep driving
if the supercharger blows up, assuming you havnt broken anythiing else in the process, remove the belt and the motor will keep running without it.
Turbochargers don't actually use power to make power like a supercharger, they actually just put a HUUUGE farking restriction in the exhaust which costs power,know as we all know a N/A motor benifits from a free flow exhaust, now whats a turbo..... a restriction! although its just offset power the power increase gained!
NOW WOULD YOU ALL PLEASE STATE WHAT SUPERCHARGER YOUR ALL TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU CRAP ON BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS
Roots and screw... Bulk torque from idle
Centrifugal... Just a belt driven turbo
Wanted: Car trailer or beaver tail truck, let me know what you got
Thanks for the comparo Hoonz, it is pretty much what I was lookin for....
if I do go the 6.5 Chev, they recommend not going with the Turbo for most offroaders, as it suffers from overheating in outback travel :( which is the direction the new truck will take. So was wonderin if a blower would have been an option.
I'll see how the NA GQ drives in morning.
Thanks again.
6.5 NA in a GU wagon pulls slightly harder then the supercharged 4.2 in my GQ wagon .... theres another comparo for ya
ps get a bigger radiator a PWR one or the likes for the 6.5 anyhow they do run hot
i just found some figures i wrote down aaages ago of the ute
just after the rebuild it could pull 60 in second and 110 in third quite easily
the wagon pulls 40 in second and 80 in third
so thats turbo powah for you ... also ...
turbo is free power
super charger uses power to gain power ...
if turbo blows up .. unbolt it keep driving ...
if super charger blows up ... ur fuct
wtf mayte?
turbo isn't completely free, it just uses less power to turn the turbo then it does to turn the supercharger.
if turbo blows up, assuming nothing like the comp wheel went through the motor and ***** it royally, you can keep driving
if the supercharger blows up, assuming you havnt broken anythiing else in the process, remove the belt and the motor will keep running without it.
Turbochargers don't actually use power to make power like a supercharger, they actually just put a HUUUGE farking restriction in the exhaust which costs power,know as we all know a N/A motor benifits from a free flow exhaust, now whats a turbo..... a restriction! although its just offset power the power increase gained!
NOW WOULD YOU ALL PLEASE STATE WHAT SUPERCHARGER YOUR ALL TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU CRAP ON BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS
bluemq wrote:
Nice work sunshine, you are agreeing with me.
I hate the rolleyes icon, so gheeeeey!
I was rolling my eyes at Hoonz and yes i agree with you but most of what he said was gobbledy goop, how fast it goes in each gear, i mean anyone with some idea should know thats just gear ratio, tyre size, engine RPM Not power.
And turbos being free power is just so foolish!
Maybe the rolly eyes dude thinks your Grimace "yea dats what i recon"
Wanted: Car trailer or beaver tail truck, let me know what you got
any one here had first hand experience with superchargers? and ones that have blown up?
i know that gear figures determine speed ... but in direct relation to power
a stock NA diesel won't push 35s to do that ...
H( * )( * )NZ loves B( * )( * )BIES
if a fat lady falls in the forest do the trees laugh?
[quote="RUFF"]although i didnt mean to, i squealed like a girl :armsup:[/quote]
Bogged, why not another diesel engine??? There are plenty of other good options for better, stronger engines that will be more economical.
For example, the ISUZU 4 and 6 cylinder truck engines - which usually do a million km between rebuilds, and have a very flat torque curve so are great offroad. The engines can either be bought from truck wreckers or new from ISUZU. I think ISUZU also has a very strong 6-speed auto, which could probably be adapted to the nissan T-case. Some specs...
i'm told by some people and keep in mind, everybody thinks they are right with the info they are supplying from their side of the fence....... that if you want low down grunt, and all though the rev range power, you go supercharger on a petrol engine.... intercool a turbo and retune it on a diesel and you won't stop it. I'm looking for a stage one Vortech supercharger for the 5.0 litre for low down grunt. And they also state (those that think they know) that the rotary blowers use far less power than the screw type blowers. More info would be great!
There is no "I" in Team, but there are 5 in Individual Brilliance
ISUZUROVER wrote:...There are plenty of other good options for better, stronger engines that will be more economical.
TD42T
114kw@3600
330Nm@2000
eg toyota 1HD-FT around 130kW/390Nm, add intercooler and turn up the wick for around 150kW/440Nm @ about 17psi.
Yes but then you are only up around the performance level of a stock 4HE1-XS. The ISUZU engines are generally very strongly built and conservatively boosted (with maximum longevity and maximum economy in mind), so turn up the wick on the ISUZU donk and you would even waste a GM6.5T.
I know you were just having a go at Bruce's toyota phobia though...
Some of the isuzu engines also come with an Allison MD3560P 6-speed auto - which would put the tiny little 5-speed patrol allison auto to shame...
Snapped the belt on my petrol supercharger a few times, once it took out the other belts. All other times just pulled the remaining belt off and kept driving until i got to a repco or somewhere i could buy a new one. The charger is a vortech V-1 on my TB42E. The biggest disadvantage when it falls off, besides the obvious drop in power is that the motor is now majorly overfueling and runs very rich. I was shooting foot long flames out of my exhaust on the drive home from the bush the other day. Looked great at night but not great for everything else, as well as fuel economy.
If i can take one point you made bogged - it will be used for outback travel - then i can't see why you would want to go past the stock engine (TD42) with a turbo. Tried and tested.
my 2c - Save your money for fuel rather than mucking around with transplants and unusual setups.
Snatchy wrote:If i can take one point you made bogged - it will be used for outback travel - then i can't see why you would want to go past the stock engine (TD42) with a turbo. Tried and tested.
my 2c - Save your money for fuel rather than mucking around with transplants and unusual setups.
My problems start you cant get GU 4.2 in auto, Auto conversion is $6k+ from a call to rod at wholesale - that was a ballpark. So $35k for late GU, + $6k for auto... Ouch.
I can get 4.5 petrol GU, $15k, sell motor $2-3k, car is now $12-13k.
Brunswick kit fit it up to the auto ends up the same,
But I do agree with ya on safer to keep it stock as possible. But this is my midlife crisis, leave me alone
Still thinking which way to go... Engineer mate has offered to fit for free for my labour..
but some of the European manufacturers prefer turbos on diesels and supers on petrol.
