Krap&N - Real-World Example

[nairbo]

I asked the fitters that maintain our CAT machines ,and many other earthmoving machines from mine sites [992 loaders and D11 dozers] and the general oppinion is that if something can filter air in an offroad enviroment and still maintain effeciency a company like Caterpillar would be useing them, CAT still 2day use paper elements in most of their massive range of machines that mostly operate off road.

[fnqcairns]

Hi Shadow you have the urban myths confused with the science.

Molybdenum disulfide - is a steel-green powder used for gear lubes as an EP additive. Each particle is usually 0.5 um in diameter and these particles are suspended in the carrier fluid. Moly particles coat high pressure surfaces such as gear teeth, and as such, shear and become plastic to prevent surface wear.


MolyDithiocarbamate -MoDTC, is oil soluble moly or Molybdenum DialkylDithiocarbamate, which is made by reacting molybdenum with carbon disulfide acids; MoDTC is very stable against high temp decomposition and resists mechanical pressures or loads. MoDTC is advantageous in motor oils as a Friction Reduction additive.

Molydisulfide powder - Simply too unstable to use in motor oils unless other actions taken.

Don't know about you but I will stick with motor oils in my engine and Molly that will not be filtered out by an automotive bypass filter. The Moly that can be filtered out is in GREASES.

Shadow had any engine trouble lately?

Heaps of correct info on the web if you use some of the above terms and google. I have already been through it all to dismiss the bypass filter urban myths ages ago.

Cheers fnq

[ISUZUROVER]

IMO there is no such thing as filtration being too good, there is such a thing as filtration being not cost effective - in terms of $ for longevity gain of an engine or engine power loss.

Molybdenum disulphide powder is available these days with average particle sizes of around 0.45 microns. This would not be pulled out by a bypass filter, but some of it would be pulled out by a bypass centrifuge.

Just about all companies that operate big fleets with expensive (diesel) engines do not use additives - they rely on good quality oil and good quality filters, and have oil analysis performed regularly to check for wear metals, silicone (dust) and soot levels in their oil.

If should also be pointed out that all serious off-road filters (donaldson/fleetguard/mann) are dual element filters. This is only done on engines that spend most of their life offroad.

EDIT - fnq gave a better answer about the moly than me - see above.

[460cixy]

has anyone looked at whats in the bottom of you average 5ltr oil container? next time you change your oil drain the dregs in to a clean clear container and look at the floaties ect. in brand new oil. as for friction modifyed oils dont get me started. and as for road nazi you cawk smoker if you dont like my spelling or grammer after a night on the piss

[rick130]

has anyone looked at whats in the bottom of you average 5ltr oil container?

ever seen an oil test on a virgin engine oil ?
yep, there's some stuff there that shouldn't be

It's for this reason you should also never pre-fill a diesel fuel filter. (although I continue to pre-fill my oil filters) All you are doing is introducing 7+ micron crap to the pump that is normally filtered out.

[rick130]

fnq, nice post on the moly. Looks like you've been spending waaay too much time on BITOG

[fnqcairns]

Yesss sir! it's my bible

Made it my business to sort the wheat from the chalf on bypasses when I thought I would like to fit one.
Got a ralph wood on now fitted to a td4.2 GQ and 2k odd into a drain I still have trouble finding the end of the oil on the dipstick it's still so clean and clear - even the soot has been cleaned from the oil! Didn't believe that would actually happen!!

cheers fnq

[Shadow]

[quote="fnqcairns"][/quote]

ok well i was basing my statements on highschool chemsitry and your quoting lots of big words so i will believe ya >_<

what did your bypass filter cost?

[RaginRover]

ok well i was basing my statements on highschool chemsitry and your quoting lots of big words so i will believe ya >_<

what did your bypass filter cost?

And a link if there is one to it - the only one I found looked like a scam page

Tom

[rick130]

this link is to a 790kb PDF of the Mann centrifuge catalogue.

http://www.mann-hummel.com/mhuk/upload/ ... 2Mca7f.pdf

and this is FNQ's filter manufacturer site

http://www.bypassfilter.com/

[fnqcairns]

Shadow I was a bit snide I appologise for that, the filter I bought from the US cost $230AUD to my door and the hoses and fittings $120-ish.

Ragin mine is the Motorguard arguably the best design out there for little filters on a budget IMO, although I wouldn't recommend it totally, the unit takes either toilet paper or a commercial bypass filter element sold at truck spare places that is simply a tightly wound roll of TP.

The AU 'of the shelf' TP is only 10cm tall and the unit takes the US TP at 11cm tall. Hard also to find ANY roll of TP here in Au that is up to the quality of the US TP.
Google motorguard and Ralph Wood you should come across the site, mine is the mg-30 I think, something like that.

cheers fnq

edit* thanks Rick

[460cixy]

i was wondering what you were all talking about with these by pass filters. i gather there there a dunnyroll fillter? we used to retro fit those style filters to deutz and iseki tractors for a long time

[uninformed]

i remember seeing, on beyond 2000, a filter fitted to a ford taxi in oz.

it used a dunny roll and they had done 300,000kms without oil change

[ISUZUROVER]

i was wondering what you were all talking about with these by pass filters. i gather there there a dunnyroll fillter? we used to retro fit those style filters to deutz and iseki tractors for a long time

Bypass filters are not always "dunny roll" filters - there are plenty of other options - there are also bypass centrifuges (no filter element so no ongoing costs).

Modern full flow oil filters these days often use progressive media (coarse fibres with high porosity to very fine fibres with lower porosity). This type of media gets a lot better efficiency than the 25 microns of so claimed. The other thing you have to remember, is that FILTERS ARE (usually) NOT SIEVES - so a filter which removes all 25 micron particles might remove 50% of 10 micron particles, and so on. Also, while fuel filters or air filters need to remove all particles in one pass, oil filters do not - the oil goes through them multiple times.

There are full-flow oil filters these days which are capable of 50% or greater particle removal down to about 5 microns. Almost all soot and wear metal particles (unless heavily agglomerated) are smaller than this, so a bypass filter or centrifuge is needed if you want to remove them.

[Shadow]

i was wondering what you were all talking about with these by pass filters. i gather there there a dunnyroll fillter? we used to retro fit those style filters to deutz and iseki tractors for a long time

Bypass filters are not always "dunny roll" filters - there are plenty of other options - there are also bypass centrifuges (no filter element so no ongoing costs).

Modern full flow oil filters these days often use progressive media (coarse fibres with high porosity to very fine fibres with lower porosity). This type of media gets a lot better efficiency than the 25 microns of so claimed. The other thing you have to remember, is that FILTERS ARE (usually) NOT SIEVES - so a filter which removes all 25 micron particles might remove 50% of 10 micron particles, and so on. Also, while fuel filters or air filters need to remove all particles in one pass, oil filters do not - the oil goes through them multiple times.

There are full-flow oil filters these days which are capable of 50% or greater particle removal down to about 5 microns. Almost all soot and wear metal particles (unless heavily agglomerated) are smaller than this, so a bypass filter or centrifuge is needed if you want to remove them.

how much is a centrifuge filter though

they look exxy.

[460cixy]

if my memery serves me corect finer filters had one available and it was prety expencive but i could be totaly wrong. i have had anything to do with centrifuge filters. dont the td5 have a centrifuge filter maybe it could be adapted

[rick130]

I put a link to the Mann Centrifuge catalogue above. I looked into fitting one several years ago, which is basically the same as the TD5 one, and IIRC it was going to run to $5-600.
Best contact Mann-Hummel Australia.

[rick130]

This is an Australin company supplying similar systems to FNQ's OS sourced by-pass. http://www.filtertechnology.com.au/temp ... ageID=1696

[Shadow]

This is an Australin company supplying similar systems to FNQ's OS sourced by-pass. http://www.filtertechnology.com.au/temp ... ageID=1696

any idea what an FN02 costs?

[Shadow]

I put a link to the Mann Centrifuge catalogue above. I looked into fitting one several years ago, which is basically the same as the TD5 one, and IIRC it was going to run to $5-600.
Best contact Mann-Hummel Australia.

how much would a wrecker charge for one off a TD5 ? are they a bypass type or do they filter inline?

[rick130]

any fine filtration filter is a by-pass type, there is too much pressure drop in them to be otherwise, although as Isuzurover said, Donaldson's Synteq media is rated at Beta 2=6 (50% efficient at 6 micron) and this is what I use on the Landy and the Patrol.

You'll have to do the leg work on availability, costs, etc 2nd hand as I have no idea.

[Shadow]

any fine filtration filter is a by-pass type, there is too much pressure drop in them to be otherwise, although as Isuzurover said, Donaldson's Synteq media is rated at Beta 2=6 (50% efficient at 6 micron) and this is what I use on the Landy and the Patrol.

You'll have to do the leg work on availability, costs, etc 2nd hand as I have no idea.

yeh might ring a wrecker tomorrow.

how much is your donaldson filter for the patrol?

[LuxyBoy]

Some links for you all:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
http://www.kleenoilpanolin.de/49.0.html?&L=1
http://www.frantzfilters.com.au/
http://www.puradyn.com/products/specs.html
http://www.filtermag.com.au/

Quote from Filtermag for my 2.8d Lux

Hi Brad,

The FilterMag model you need is a SS365 @ $89.95 NZD + Freight
We ship the goods out from a logistics company in Sydney.
The easiest way to pay for the goods is buy credit card. There is no GST added onto the sale
as you are purchasing from an overseas company.
Let me know how you wish to proceed.

Cheers

Ben Taylor
M.Director
Absolute Filtration Limited


Quote from Franz Filters for my 2.8d Lux

If several of your friends are interested in purchasing these filters then I'll give you a sliding discount; $245 ea for 2 units, $235 ea for 4 or more units (& element pack at $11 ea for all cases). Pretty good eh? Also, freight to QLD is $18 per kit. If I know how many sets you wish to order I can review the freight costs and try & combine them all together to cut the costs for you.

As a rule of thumb the kit usually takes between 1-4 hours to install depending on the type of vehicle (petrol or diesel), model, etc. The diesel Hilux takes about 1-2 hours based on reports from other customers as far away as yourselves. The first thing to do is locate a mounting point for the filter (fire wall, unused mounting points on manifolds, spare battery locations) and this depends on how many after-market accessories have been added to the engine bay. Filter dimensions are approximately 25 cm tall x 12 cm in diameter (plus allow 5 cm for the clamp handle). You can use existing lumes to anchor and route oil lines about the engine bay.

There is an additional option for returning the oil and that is using a specialized swivel fitting that is placed in the oil filler cap. Installation of that takes 15 minutes and makes installation overall very easy. These cost $25 ea. No discount on this item as it's a costly import.

If you have any other questions just ask. Otherwise I'll await your decision on your friends, etc.

Regards
Matt