I've given up...

Post by **justinC** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:31 pm

Thats it. I've given up.

Much to my dissappointment, today the 3rd ZF autobox gave up in the RR.
I'm now looking for a LT95 (Late, with close gate shift) and i'll look at anything, V8 Rangie or s3, or ideally Isuzu stage1 etc.
This is not sitting very well with the misses OR me, as we enjoyed the auto a lot.
I DEFINATELY think that torsional vibration with the 4BD1 was the culprit, and as this vehicle has to be 100% reliable, we are going the LT95 and .996 high range. I'm already running 32's, and it won't be a problem going to 33's (255/85/16) if i need to.

RIP 4HP22.....sob sob.
And it was going so well too....

JC

Post by **GRIMACE** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:38 pm

i have had two go on me.. one was 4months rebuilt.... hoping it gets repaired under warranty.... all that aside i wont be drivin a rangie anymore...

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:44 pm

What about an Isuzu auto to LT230?

Or even a TF727

I'm sorry it has ended. You could even look at a T700R4.

Post by **justinC** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm

So am I. Bitterly dissapointed actually, because I've always believed that overall an auto, especially behind a torquey diesl is the best off road of all. Thats why I persisted for so long. ($$$ also!)
But we use this vehicle for everything, and we plan to go up the Tanami to the kimberely's next year, so 100% reliability is paramount.
The other half is not looking forward to the LT95 either, she's driven county 110's before, and ' It's not one of those 4 speeds like whats in such and such's Landy is it?' was the first thing she said when I suggested it. I then explained that recovering the vehicle from the Tanami road could end up being more expensive than the vehicle itself... and there seems now to be acceptance on her part too.
I'll look around for a good LT95, and source a new bellhousing if need be.

Thanks for the support, this is a very difficult time.
(SOB, SOB)
JC

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:58 pm

At least get an LT85, then you can keep your LT230, and you have 5 gears to play with.

Even an R380

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:02 pm

Very sorry to hear that Justin - it always sounded like a good conversion.

What about the Allison Autos that are fitted to ISUZUs. They are about the strongest auto you can get, and over the years have been available in 4, 5 and 6 speed variants behind ISUZU engines. Mostly in buses and motorhomes AFAIK, not as many in trucks.

Post by **justinC** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:07 pm

Where do I find info on the trucks fitted with the Allison box? was the 4BD1 ever fitted up to one? A 5spd auto would be fantastic, as long as there is no ECU to run it though...

As Ash says, it would be better to keep the LT230 anyway.

Thanks

JC

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:11 pm

justinC wrote:Where do I find info on the trucks fitted with the Allison box? was the 4BD1 ever fitted up to one? A 5spd auto would be fantastic, as long as there is no ECU to run it though...

As Ash says, it would be better to keep the LT230 anyway.

Thanks

JC

PM Bush65, I think he is up on what came out in what when it comes to Isuzu.

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:14 pm

For instance - the MD3060P - 6-speed. But it looks like a big beast.

Post by **justinC** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:31 pm

WHERE THE HELL AM I GOING TO PUT THAT???!!! ( Ah, don't answer that...) OR, "Look at the size of that thing, we'll never fit THAT on the album cover!"

Looks like the business though.

BTW,The auto never even went over 'warm' all day, outside temps were around 4 degrees, and we were just crawling along in low range anyway.

I'll PM Bush65, Thanks for that Ben.

JC

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:37 pm

justinC wrote:WHERE THE HELL AM I GOING TO PUT THAT???!!! ( Ah, don't answer that...) OR, "Look at the size of that thing, we'll never fit THAT on the album cover!"

Looks like the business though.

BTW,The auto never even went over 'warm' all day, outside temps were around 4 degrees, and we were just crawling along in low range anyway.

I'll PM Bush65, Thanks for that Ben.

JC

Where/how you squeeze it in is your problem... AFAIK there were smaller 4 and 5 speeds fitted to NPR-based motorhomes. John (Bush65) should be able to tell you more and should also have the ISUZU manuals on hand (mine are in OZ).

I saw quite a few of the 6-speeds for sale on US websites for $2000 or so, and rebuilds for $3500.

The ISUZU 5-speed auto is the Allison MD3050P
ALLISON MD3050P CR (CLOSE RATIO) 5-SPEED-WITH 0.75 OVER. DRIVE. TORQUE RATING: 800 LB-FT

Post by **6.5 rangie** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:42 pm

Who's building these ZF's that keep blowing up, surely theres someone modding these things, one of my mates has his one auto business, (doesn't really do ZF's, does a lot of T700's) i think its something he should look into.

Post by **justinC** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:45 pm

I've just PM'd John, thanks Ben.

I have a 2.5" body lift, so there is plenty of room in there!!

I feel like there may be light at the end of the tunnel of manual gearbox gloom now! Thanks everyone!

The misses WILL be pleased...
Do I get to add an 'ALLISON TRANSMISSIONS' sticker to my tailgate now, to go with the ISUZU one??? Not only will it sound like one, soon it will look like a truck!!
JC

Post by **rangemann** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:15 pm

I've lost 4th gear in my ZF.

works fine in third, just the overdrive is gone.

is that common? i haven't found any stray bits of metal in the sump so
i'm not too concerned.

i really REALLY don't want to have to take it out.

p.s. is this known as thread hijacking??

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:20 pm

Justin - bit more info.

Looks like the 4-speed is the Allison AT542 or AT545. Looks a bit smaller than the 5 or 6 speed.

Post by **mangie** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:53 pm

Is this an option?

http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/16.html

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:11 pm

What about this for an idea

Dodge 518 Conversion

This is how to convert your three speed transmission to a 1995 back A518 overdrive transmission with a three wire connector (gas). A 518 transmission has a 31% overdrive and will produce a 30 to 40% increase in gas mileage on the road over a three speed transmission. Remember overdrive is only 3rd gear high range anyway. There are two wire 518 transmissions out there, these have a non-lock-up torque converter. With this three wire setup you have a four speed transmission plus a torque converter lock-up feature. The extra gear is 3rd high range. We've been asked this question for years, so I decided to put it down in black and white. What we're actually going to do here is control the overdrive and torque converter lock-up normally controlled by the computer using one vacuum and two oil pressure switch. Instead of using an electronic speed sensor and throttle position sensor we will use a mechanical / hydraulic / electronic speed sensor and a vacuum / electronic throttle position sensor. This will be accomplished with the use of three GM parts and some trick wiring. The Chevy and Ford guys make the swap to overdrive all the time, it's time for the Dodge people to have the same option. Lets say you drive an average of 400 highway miles per week, at that rate you could save as much as $1000.00 per year on gas. This can be made to work with a diesel motor also with or without a vacuum pump and vacuum regulator.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1. The center wire on the transmission is the hot wire and the two other wires are ground wires for overdrive and the lock-up torque converter. The front wire is the overdrive ground and the rear wire is the torque converter lock-up ground. You can get a three wire female connector from a junk yard or buy one from us.

#2. Run a 12 volt fused wire that turns on and off with the key to the vacuum switch, then to the center wire on the transmission connector. This is a normally open vacuum switch that takes 7 pounds or more of vacuum to shift into overdrive and lock-up the torque converter and 3 pounds or less of vacuum to down shift and unlock the torque converter. Lets say you're in overdrive going 54 miles per hour at very light throttle, when you press on the throttle and the vacuum drops below 3 pounds the transmission will immediately shift back to 3rd gear low range without lock-up or even a lower gear depending on the throttle position.

#3. At the governor pressure tap on the transmission install a tee fitting for two oil pressure switches. Say a 44 PSI oil pressure switch for overdrive and a 52 PSI oil pressure switch for the torque converter lock-up. Or any other combination of switches you may want. At light throttle the transmission will shift into overdrive at 44 MPH and the torque converter will lock-up at 52 MPH. The pressure switches go on the outside of the transmission case in the governor pressure port. It's located on the right side, at the upper rear of the main transmission case. The figures on the pressure switch will only be correct if you have a stock tire size and rear end ratio.

#4. Run a wire from the front pin on the transmission connector to the 44 PSI oil pressure switch and a second wire from the rear pin on the transmission connector to the 52 PSI oil pressure switch. Now at 52 MPH when you step on the gas the transmission will shift back to third gear and the torque converter will unlock at the same time. It can't get any easier than this.

#5. Install a toggle switch in the overdrive ground wire. When the switch is turned off you will have 1st, 2nd and 3rd low range, exactly like a 727 transmission with the same ratios. When the switch is turned on you will have 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear low range plus 3rd high range. When the toggle switch is on the transmission will immediately shift into overdrive at light throttle over 44 miles per hour whenever it’s in drive range on the gear selector. Once in overdrive the transmission will not come out of overdrive until the overdrive solenoid is turned off, or the vehicle speed goes below 44 miles per hour, or the vacuum drops below 3 pounds. The only electronic parts on a 518 transmission are the overdrive and torque converter lock-up solenoids.

Link to website

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/alto_3.htm

Post by **cloughy** » Tue May 23, 2006 7:44 am

What's actually breaking, clutch packs, gear sets, what?

Post by **GRIMACE** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:46 am

cloughy wrote:What's actually breaking, clutch packs, gear sets, what?

mine was clutch packs....

Post by **shakes** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:17 am

and whats making them go? big tyres, excessive power / heavy right foot? weak link in the drivetrain due to toy/MD/JM axles?

Post by **andrew e** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:36 am

Just keep it simple and go back to the tried and tested 4 speed short shift. The're not that bad. Mabe even get the army tapered roller bearing kit and its quieter. I personally wouldn't touch another lt85, sit it side by side with an lt95 and you will see what i mean, everything is just smaller. Its not worth the extra gear if it plays in the back of your mind, will i make up through this hill, or will my box go bang. Especially out on the tanami. Also a bit better for the back pocket........

Andy

Post by **cloughy** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:40 pm

Fark manual especially behind a turquey dieasel they are snatchy and you have to drive extra extra smooth,

clutch packs will die if there not locking at the right time and if you have a destalled convertor and the shift isn't changed accordingly you will be driving on slipping clutches, also using (abusing) the auto in high range under stressful conditions will fry the clutches, also leaving in drive when four by wheeling doesn't help either, i've never played with ZF's in particular but they are all the same theory in shifts, did you have shift kit, made your own? to help prevent deteriating the cluthes, i'd stick with the auto or use a T700, can build them tough as need a 4l80 but.

Post by **isuzu110** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:54 am

"The other half is not looking forward to the LT95 either, she's driven county 110's before, and ' It's not one of those 4 speeds like whats in such and such's Landy is it?' was the first thing she said when I suggested it"

My wife is quite petite and drove our 110 with an LT-95 all through 2 pregancies as a daily driver. Told her it was character buidling. A short shift mod would be good though.

Post by **Simo63** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:42 pm

justinC wrote:Thats it. I've given up.

Much to my dissappointment, today the 3rd ZF autobox gave up in the RR.
I'm now looking for a LT95 (Late, with close gate shift) and i'll look at anything, V8 Rangie or s3, or ideally Isuzu stage1 etc.
This is not sitting very well with the misses OR me, as we enjoyed the auto a lot.
I DEFINATELY think that torsional vibration with the 4BD1 was the culprit, and as this vehicle has to be 100% reliable, we are going the LT95 and .996 high range. I'm already running 32's, and it won't be a problem going to 33's (255/85/16) if i need to.

RIP 4HP22.....sob sob.
And it was going so well too....

JC

Hi Justin

I've been reading this thread (and your previous ones) and am dismayed that you have had such a run of bad luck with the ZF's. I thought I might try to add something to your equation although it seems like you have made up your mind to go another route.

I wanted to ask you how you had set up your kick down cable? I am no expert when it comes to autos (in fact I know almost nothing about them) however I did fit a ZF to a comp rangie I built a few years back now and I remember the guy at the local auto shop telling me that it was absolutely imperative that I got the kickdown cable set up correct as it is the only method the ZF has to know where the throttle setting is at and thus how it should be responding. I am sure people with far more knowledge than me might be able to explain that a bit better but the guts of it was that I needed to set up the cable for the auto with the exact same pull arc/ratio that it originally had if that makes any sense. The guy told me that if I get it wrong, the auto won't last long at all .. maybe even less than a few kms.

I ran mine for a couple of years with no problems ... with 5 litre motor (4.4 taken out to 5.0), locked axles at both ends, 36 inch tyres running on offset disco rims and the auto never even looked like giving any trouble and it had done 160,000 kms when I pulled it from the donor wreck. I ran it in a few winch challenges, lots of wheeling with mates and the new owner has winch raced it as well with no problems afaik. I understand your diesel has heaps more torque and far different power characteristics but I just thought maybe it is something as basic as this?

Cheers
Simo

Post by **justinC** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:54 pm

ISUZUROVER wrote:Justin - bit more info.

Looks like the 4-speed is the Allison AT542 or AT545. Looks a bit smaller than the 5 or 6 speed.

Hi ben,

Where would I get info on the box pictured? Is it an SAE3 pattern? Isuzu bolt up? Looks like the same type of flange...All I would have to do is fit an LT230...
I can buy a AT540 out of Melb for around $700.00 complete off a 6BB1. I'm interested to find out if the flange diameters are the same as the 4Bd1.

Thanks

JC

Post by **Bush65** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:19 pm

The pan looks to be very wide. It and that hyd line may cause a problem with clearance for the front drive shaft.

Post by **lowbox** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:41 pm

A guy over here that installs Nissan diesels had problems with them killing landrover gearboxes. It turned out to be vibration from the big wobbly diesel oscillating around. They use v12 jag engine mounts and it helps stop them moving around so much.

Post by **justinC** » Sun May 28, 2006 5:37 pm

Right,

I,ve just found a complete running and test drivable 1984 RR with a good LT95, comes with a 4BD1 to LT95 bellhousing thrown in....

But...

I want an AUTO!!!!

I also need the car every day, and it is a pain having 1 car when both kids go to different schools in different directions etc etc.

SO....

I've decided to go with the LT95 for ease of fitment and immediate return of the RR to daily use.
I'm still researching the bolt pattern dimensions for the bellhousing flange face, the auto I'm looking at came from an Isuzu 6 cyl diesel, and I just have to see if it is easily fitted up to the 4.
In with the LT95 and at least I'll then have time to adapt the LT230 to the Allison AT540 and refit it at a later time.

I know it is an involved and longwinded way, but this way I can be sure of longterm reliability. I might even leave the LT95 in for the Tanami trip.

Thanks for all your replies/ advice everyone. I'll keep you posted with the developments when I get the bits.

JC

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:26 pm

Why not just drive the '84 till you get it sorted?

Post by **justinC** » Sun May 28, 2006 10:05 pm

OOPS,

I failed to mention that the reason $1200 would buy the RR and bellhousing, is because there has been a large eucalypt inserted into the turrett of this vehicle.

A tree had fallen on it.

JC

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