24v winch on 12v vehicle

[GQ Bear]

How can i run a 24v winch on the front of my gq which is wired 12v?

is it possible to run a 24v alternator and then transform this to 12v for engine battery and run it as 24v for accessories battery?

or is there some other way?

thanks

[DamTriton]

24 Volt alternator > 24 volt battery > winch (+ 24 volt driving lights???). 12 volt alt > 12 volt battery > Starter. Two seperate systems (competition rigs use this system)

You could get a 12 volt motor for the winch.........

Your main issue is that you are going to need high current at 12 volts for starting, and high current at 24 volts for winching.

[-Scott-]

Could you adapt a 24V starter to the GQ? Once the starter is taken care of, it may be feasible to use a 24V-12V converter for ancillaries?

Of course, what's really required is a dual output alternator!

Hmmm. NFI how to do it... Piggyback one behind the other?



Scott

[Bartso]

im in the process of adding a 24v alt to my engine so i can run my winch

not sure but with your bats in series can you just hook all your other gear on one of the batteries so your just using 12v?

[toughnut]

im in the process of adding a 24v alt to my engine so i can run my winch

not sure but with your bats in series can you just hook all your other gear on one of the batteries so your just using 12v?

We did this on one of the rigs during last years X-treme International.

Steve

[-Scott-]

im in the process of adding a 24v alt to my engine so i can run my winch

not sure but with your bats in series can you just hook all your other gear on one of the batteries so your just using 12v?

We did this on one of the rigs during last years X-treme International.

Steve

It will certainly work, but long-term you'll kill your batteries. The batteries both receive the same charging current, but they're not discharging the same. Eventually one battery gets cooked by overcharging, and the other may never be charged properly.

Cheers,

Scott

[4sum4]

bit of topic,If you run 24v globes on a 12v system they run half bright but do they use less amps aswell or the same just half bright
and were do you chase a 24v alternater from and price

[DamTriton]

bit of topic,If you run 24v globes on a 12v system they run half bright but do they use less amps aswell or the same just half bright
and were do you chase a 24v alternater from and price

They will be little more than glow worms at 12 volts.

About 25-30% of the light output is as a result of the last 5-10% of the rated voltage (ie for "12" volt globes 12.5 compared to 13.8 volts). This is the reason most people get good results from a simple upgrade to the headlight loom rather than upgrading the light globes (further loading down the OE loom). The resistance of a globe is not constant, the cold resistance is less than the hot resistance.

24 volt globe on 12 not really a line of thought worth pursuing.

24 Volt alternators are available from Bosch, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, and several other manufacturers new, or from auto elecs refurbished. Look for small trucks and some import models of Patrols at the wreckers for second hand.

[-Scott-]

bit of topic,If you run 24v globes on a 12v system they run half bright but do they use less amps aswell or the same just half bright
and were do you chase a 24v alternater from and price

DAMKIA nailed the 24V globes on 12V. Biggest problem is the variable resistance, so they don't behave in a linear fashion.

IF they were linear, and given that light output is a function of power, which is proportional to voltage squared, half the voltage would result in one quarter the power.

Scott

[toughnut]

im in the process of adding a 24v alt to my engine so i can run my winch

not sure but with your bats in series can you just hook all your other gear on one of the batteries so your just using 12v?

We did this on one of the rigs during last years X-treme International.

Steve

It will certainly work, but long-term you'll kill your batteries. The batteries both receive the same charging current, but they're not discharging the same. Eventually one battery gets cooked by overcharging, and the other may never be charged properly.

Cheers,

Scott

Is there a reason you can't run the batteries in parrallel and in series. You can have a common earth between the to voltages as long as you don't run a common positive. If you can run 12V off one battery then why can't you just run 12V off both batteries.

[pig75]

maby this would work? http://www.bla.com.au/index.php?fn=prod ... 3afdcc884f

[-Scott-]

Is there a reason you can't run the batteries in parrallel and in series. You can have a common earth between the to voltages as long as you don't run a common positive. If you can run 12V off one battery then why can't you just run 12V off both batteries.

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting. To achieve 24V from two 12V batteries you need the positive of one to be connected to the negative of the other - so you can't have a common negative.

The following I'm making up as I go along - feel free to find faults in the theory.

By installing appropriate switching, you could connect the two 12V batteries in parallel for charging, then switch to a 24V configuration for running the winch. If you're not careful with the switching arrangement you could short one of the batteries out - not good! A single, dual pole change-over (DPDT) switch should work, but you'd need to ensure it's "break before make." It also needs to be VERY heavy duty, as it would carry all the winching current. If you forget to switch to 12V configuration after winching, you'd probably charge one battery and not the other - a nuisance, but it shouldn't have a long term detrimental effect.

If you have room for THREE batteries, you could install the above arrangement isolated from your starting battery - then use a single, high current (largest you can find) 12V alternator for charging all three.

Alternative arrangement #2:

Install the two batteries in series, so that you effectively have +12V and -12V. Install a second 12V alternator in a positive earth configuration, then wire your 12V winch across the +12V and -12V terminals. VERY important to ensure all winch wiring is isolated from the chassis. You still need two alternators, but each battery is individually charged by its own alternator - so you can draw 12V from either battery, as long as you understand the implications of having both a +ve earth and a -ve earth system on the one vehicle.

Confused yet?

Scott

[-Scott-]

maby this would work? http://www.bla.com.au/index.php?fn=prod ... 3afdcc884f

That link only takes me to what appears to be the site's home page. Can you give us more info on the product you were looking at?

Cheers,

Scott

[toughnut]

I meant that you run the batteries in series (24V) and also run 12V from each indevidual battery. We've already established that you can do this off one of the batteries but you run the risk of over charging one and draining the other. So why not have both of the batteries wired for both 12 and 24V

[-Scott-]

I meant that you run the batteries in series (24V) and also run 12V from each indevidual battery. We've already established that you can do this off one of the batteries but you run the risk of over charging one and draining the other. So why not have both of the batteries wired for both 12 and 24V

OK. The problem is that charging in series means they need to be discharged in series. This will work if you can ensure both batteries ALWAYS discharge at the same rate, but in practice this will be tricky. Ultimately, they'll "fall out of sync" - but the better matched, the longer the batteries will last. And anything connected to the "upper" battery needs to be carefully isolated from the chassis.

Cheers,

Scott

[LOCKEE]

My 2c, keep 12v and spend the money on making it work the best you can. I and many others run a good alt, good batteries, big cables, good winch motor, turn off what you don't require when winching.

[pig75]

try this http://www.bepmarine.com/showproduct.cfm?productid=1098

[-Scott-]

try this http://www.bepmarine.com/showproduct.cfm?productid=1098

Got it!

I can't see why it wouldn't work for a three battery system, but I don't know if it will work on a two battery system. I don't know that it won't, but without knowing what happens inside the box it's impossible to guarantee it will work.

Anybody wanna try?

Scott

[chimpboy]

try this http://www.bepmarine.com/showproduct.cfm?productid=1098

What an absolute ripper of a device. Any idea what they cost?

[pig75]

Not cheap RRP $319

[Bush65]

Use one of these http://www.redarc.com.au/ce.htm

Otherwise, if you convert to 24V alt and batteries and can find a 24V starter motor. You can connect the pairs of 12V lights/spotties in series so that they can be supplied with 24V (disadvantage is, if 1 globe blows, you loose both lights).

This will take care of most of the electrical load and then use a 24V to 12V convertor for the 12V accesories.

[ausoops]

scotts idea would work for the -12v +12v configuration, however to be able to keep the -12v side off the chassis would not be possible because internally the winch motor is earthed to the winch casing, which is bolted to the chassis, causing a dead short -12v to earth.

i tried running two 12v spotties in series off a 24v supply to quickly realise the frame of the first spotty was +12v to the chassis.

run separate 12v and 24v system, having two 12's in parallel then series for the winch would work in theory with the correct isolators but in practice it wont because any 12v appliances hanging off the second battery won't work when you use your winch.

[Tim HJ61]

I'm running a 24v HJ61 Landcruiser so I understand a bit about a 24v charge system and then pulling 12v off for accesories. I use a Redarc Charge Equaliser http://www.redarc.com.au/ which is very effective in balancing the charge between two batteries when you draw one down for 12v.

However, you guys are talking about running a 24v winch off a 12v system, which is the other way around.

I'm thinking one way would be to run three batteries and charge them all in parallel for normal running on 12v. Then to run the winch you'd have a switching setup where you'd disconnect two of the three batteries from the setup, connect them to run in parallel and run the winch only off these two batteries.

You wouldn't be able to charge them whilst running the winch.
You would be able to charge them again off the 12v system in parallel and they would happily charge up all balanced without a Redarc unit.

However, you're obviously seriously into winching if you want to run a 24v winch, so you're likely to need a way of recharging the batteries whilst winching. That one's beyond me, unless you get a second 24v alternator as suggested. this way you'd keep two 24v batteries going just to winch from, and run a second electrical system. that'd work but seems an awful lot of effort and cost to go to.

Tim

[matsmad]

You could swap your 24v winch for my 12v winch

[GQ Bear]

Hmmmmm, this seems to be harder than i first thought. There are plenty of comp trucks that do it tho.

Just a suggestion, everyone is talking about running 12V batteries in Parrallel and series and the like.

How about 24V alternator charges a 24V battery which is linked directly to 24V winch. However, same 24V battery is linked to step-down transformer before powering 12V starter, engine management system and 12V 2nd battery which runs accessories.

[DamTriton]

Hmmmmm, this seems to be harder than i first thought. There are plenty of comp trucks that do it tho.

Just a suggestion, everyone is talking about running 12V batteries in Parrallel and series and the like.

How about 24V alternator charges a 24V battery which is linked directly to 24V winch. However, same 24V battery is linked to step-down transformer before powering 12V starter, engine management system and 12V 2nd battery which runs accessories.

No such thing as a "step-down transformer" for DC, only AC. You can get stepdown regulators for 24-12 volts, but these are meant for radios and other low power consumption items in your car (usually limited to about 5-10 amps) They will not provide the current to start your car or run your lights/electrics.

The best solution, (and the only one really practical and cheap) is a seperate 24 volt alternator running to 24 volt batteries and your 24 volt winch. Leave the 12 volt stuff alone.

Other solution would be to get the motor rewound to 12 volts, or buy a 12 volt motor (couple of hundred bucks at a guess).

The ideas presented elsewhere are simply going to produce an unreliable sysytem, to complex in its switching requirements, and probably end up costing more than if you did it the "normal" and logical way anyway.

From a saying in Avaiation Engineering, "add lightness and simplicate". Never a truer word spoken from the people that brought you "Murphy's Law"..................

[chimpboy]

The ideas presented elsewhere are simply going to produce an unreliable sysytem, to complex in its switching requirements, and probably end up costing more than if you did it the "normal" and logical way anyway.

From a saying in Avaiation Engineering, "add lightness and simplicate". Never a truer word spoken from the people that brought you "Murphy's Law"..................

I agree - simplicity. Therefore, if you have a 12V vehicle, use a 12V winch. If you have a 24V vehicle, use a 24V winch.

Jason

[ausoops]

what about forgetting all about 12v for a second. remove the 12v alt, replace with a 24v alt, use two batts in series for 24v. use that for the winch. the only high current device that will require 12v is the starter motor. whack it off the 12v battery. (if this is a comp rig you will be cooking batteries anyway, so rooting the charge on one is really going to matter in the long run). the only other thing is to change all the lamps to 24v but run the control circuitry (dash and relays) off the 12v battery. if you want you can spend the coin and throw a redarc equaliser in to delay the inevitable.

then again if its not a winch that will see a lot of work swap the motor for a 12v and whack it in. leave everything as is and enjoy you new winch.

[DamTriton]

what about forgetting all about 12v for a second. remove the 12v alt, replace with a 24v alt, use two batts in series for 24v. use that for the winch. the only high current device that will require 12v is the starter motor. whack it off the 12v battery. (if this is a comp rig you will be cooking batteries anyway, so rooting the charge on one is really going to matter in the long run). the only other thing is to change all the lamps to 24v but run the control circuitry (dash and relays) off the 12v battery. if you want you can spend the coin and throw a redarc equaliser in to delay the inevitable.

then again if its not a winch that will see a lot of work swap the motor for a 12v and whack it in. leave everything as is and enjoy you new winch.

....and 25 amps to run the ignition system, and the 8 amps per hundred watts of lights. Not a good idea as it either fries one battery or undercharges the other. Keep the phone e number of a battery supplier handy as you could need one

I'm running a 24v HJ61 Landcruiser so I understand a bit about a 24v charge system and then pulling 12v off for accesories. I use a Redarc Charge Equaliser http://www.redarc.com.au/ which is very effective in balancing the charge between two batteries when you draw one down for 12v.

This is the right way to do it if you need to go down that way, but it would still be more effective to do it with two seperate circuits, and probably not that different in cost. It also gives you a "spare" batttery for the winch if you really get stuck.

[ausoops]

....and 25 amps to run the ignition system, and the 8 amps per hundred watts of lights. Not a good idea as it either fries one battery or undercharges the other. Keep the phone e number of a battery supplier handy as you could need one

change lamps to 24v, and ignition system is virtually no load for a diesel, except to glow.