why did my wheel fall off?

[shorty_f0rty]

hey guys
i had an incident last night and i was hoping you could help me figure out where i went wrong..

last night i swapped off my jt's for the cheese cutters with the rattle gun and checked them with the tyre iron afterwards (all were tight).. i rotated the spare on to give it some wear as usual. the only thing different about the spare is its a hilux rim that i've run before without problems.

anyway.. go down the road to the servo and air up the tyres to 40psi. and make it home without incident (prob 5km all up) and to ensure everything is ok (easy light run). it goes off without drama.

later that night decide to go for a cruise with the missus and the cat (it likes to get out) and after a bit of freeway action(90kph max) i get this funny vibration, pull off to find the wheel's come off the hub, all 6 wheel nuts gone, i managed to stop before the hub was dragged on the ground, but it was mm's away from happening.

anyway.. im keen to learn from this particular experience considering i change tyres a far bit. what did i miss? am i doing something wrong? any input is appreciated.

heres a few pix of the rim/damage/hub.

[chimpboy]

I don't know if this could have contributed, but I would not personally do up my wheel nuts with a rattle gun... well, maybe 90% of the way but nowhere near tight. Rattle guns are not meant for this, and can damage thread.

I don't know what happened in your case. Are the holes on the rims really tight around the studs? If there's any movement, is it possible you tightened up the nuts but they weren't quite seated properly in the holes in the rim, ie sitting up above the countersinking? Then when you drove, the rim centred itself a bit better, and all the nuts were suddenly loose.

Or, is it possible you just forgot to check one wheel with the tyre iron?

Unlikely, but is there enough rust or corrosion on the studs and/or nuts that they felt tight even though they weren't?

I dunno. It's a pretty strange thing to have happen.

[shorty_f0rty]

I don't know if this could have contributed, but I would not personally do up my wheel nuts with a rattle gun... well, maybe 90% of the way but nowhere near tight. Rattle guns are not meant for this, and can damage thread.

i have heard this pov view often and can understand this. the max air pressure is 90psi and i had to use the hilift handle to help get 1 nut off each back wheel it.

I don't know what happened in your case. Are the holes on the rims really tight around the studs? If there's any movement, is it possible you tightened up the nuts but they weren't quite seated properly in the holes in the rim, ie sitting up above the countersinking? Then when you drove, the rim centred itself a bit better, and all the nuts were suddenly loose.

I considered this also. it was dark when i got to that tyre and i think it was the 2nd last to be done. it usually sits fine and has previously.

Or, is it possible you just forgot to check one wheel with the tyre iron?

this is always possible.. but would 1 loose wheel nut lead to all coming off? I drove it home with 5 nuts on 3 wheels..

Unlikely, but is there enough rust or corrosion on the studs and/or nuts that they felt tight even though they weren't?

if the rust was enough to effect this wheel wouldn't it be the same case for the jt's or other tyres.. the threads are fine although you have difficulty putting them all the way on with your fingers. there isnt many metal shavings after taking off the nuts with the rattle gun.

I dunno. It's a pretty strange thing to have happen.

i agree and this is why im trying to find out as much as i can. thanks for your 2c!

[RockyF75]

Got drum brakes? I once had the drum cover thingy, maybe called the drum? I dunno, but it didn't go right in when I put the wheel back on. For 2 weeks the drum cover slowly started to go further and further in, thereby making the bolts looser and looser. Eventually one stud broke and the wheel started wobbling like crazy and i pulled up to see 4 loose and the other one bolt/stud gooonski

[DamTriton]

"...last night i swapped off my jt's for the cheese cutters with the rattle gun..."

That's problem number one. Only use a wheelbrace. Rattlers can result in the threads of the stud being stretched, leading to eventual failure. First sign of this is nuts that coninually come loose (thread stretched at hub-stud junction)


Photo 2

That looks like problem number two. The conical face of the looks severely chatted out, and the stud holes look like they have worn too big. Are the wheelnuts actually contacting the face of the conical taper in the rims ,or are they so worn that it is contacting the hub, leaving a gap between tha cone of the nut and the rim when tightened?


"...Unlikely, but is there enough rust or corrosion on the studs and/or nuts that they felt tight even though they weren't?..."

Issue number three. There is a possibility that they would not tighten any further due to the distortion at the base of the threads from previous rattle gun tighetening.

[Cossie]

Does the taper on the wheel nuts match the taper on the rim?
Seen it happen way too aften when people change to aftermarket rims and use the old incorrect wheel nuts - even on brand new 100 series cruisers!

[DamTriton]

"...i have heard this pov view often and can understand this. the max air pressure is 90psi and i had to use the hilift handle to help get 1 nut off each back wheel it...."

Air pressure has little to do with the actual force applied to the bolts. Pneumatic cold chisels also use 90 PSI..............

Even the supposed max torque applied by rattlers is dependant on what it is being used on, it is only ever a guide, not a hard and fast setting.

[shorty_f0rty]

THanks Damkia,

so the damage is already done? How can I fix this? replace wheel studs and stick to the wheel brace from now on when changing tyres?

[Beefcake]

mate I am going to go against the grain here, and say don't stress about using a rattle gun. I use them to tighten head bolts, big end bolts even do up hose clamps with one. As long as you just use it to run the nut home and don't sit there tightening the arse out of it you will be fine. You can stretch a bolt/stud just as much by being heavy handed with a bar. Just use the rattle gun and nip them up by hand the way you have been. Your problem could well be stretched studs but a few other suggestions might be, did you nip the nuts up and seat the rim before lowering the car? Was there a build up of mud/dirt on the inside of the rim you may have not seen and has come loose when you've driven on it? The spare usually catches a lot of crap. Pretty scarey moment for you I bet, good save but by the sound of it.

[DamTriton]

THanks Damkia,

so the damage is already done? How can I fix this? replace wheel studs and stick to the wheel brace from now on when changing tyres?

Yes and yes.

Next step would be stud failure, usually in reasonably rapid succession. (overloading weakened studs)

[rockcrawler31]

when i did my drivers course in the military, we were told to do the following

1. use a brace to the recommended torque (or if using a rattle gun, use a torque limiter socket)
2.put a post it note to retorque nuts after 50km.

i always wondered if this was really necessary till i had a wheel fall off the rear of my ute after a tyre rotation.

so i think that it's possible that the driving reseated the wheel properly leaving 6 loose nuts that vibrated off.

no real mystery there.

[GQ Bear]

Mate, some c*nt (and not the asian bloke either) tried to steal my alloys one night (back when they were worth something). Anyway they removed plastic 'caps', cracked nuts on F.LEFT and R.LEFT, but obviosly couldn't raise car or got spooked.

After travelling Nepean Hwy towards city at 90kmh i got a wobble on St.Kilda Rd in morning traffic doing 40-50kmh, tried to turn into left lane and front left wheel came off.

Scary sh*t man, crashing down to earth on rotor at 40kmh in peak city traffic in a 5" raised GQ. Minutes later a dude pulled up and handed me about 4 wheel nuts. I managed to get spare on and cautiously drove home.

I reckon a few ppl were late to work that morning with me blocking right lane of St.Kilda Rd working on car at around 7am. Checked others, r.left loose with one nut missing, rhs all tight.

finally got home and found plastic 'caps' on nature strip.

[LuxyBoy]

I have had this happen also after a wheel change, get the muds on

I had returned from a camping trip with a camper trailer on the back and kids in the car. Dropped the kids and trailer off; driving down the highway and it started making a hell of a shuddering noise. Quickly exited and found all nuts were about to come off on the lefthand front wheel
I was just thankful it didn't come off going down 'the gap' from Warrick with kids and trailer.

I do my nuts up with a half drive ratchet and then nip them another quarter/half turn with the 4ft breaker bar; needless to say i was shocked they could undo.

Taught me to check them every day for about a week after doing a tyre change; i suggest the same to anyone that has daily tyres and muds they swap around for playing

[DamTriton]

I have had this happen also after a wheel change, get the muds on

I had returned from a camping trip with a camper trailer on the back and kids in the car. Dropped the kids and trailer off; driving down the highway and it started making a hell of a shuddering noise. Quickly exited and found all nuts were about to come off on the lefthand front wheel
I was just thankful it didn't come off going down 'the gap' from Warrick with kids and trailer.

I do my nuts up with a half drive ratchet and then nip them another quarter/half turn with the 4ft breaker bar; needless to say i was shocked they could undo.

Taught me to check them every day for about a week after doing a tyre change; i suggest the same to anyone that has daily tyres and muds they swap around for playing

common thread here....overtorquing. The manufacturer gave you a 1' long wheelbrace for a reason (if it wasnt safe to do them up that "loose" then they would have been in deep shit by now). The manufacturer didn't supply a 4' breaker...what does that tell you?

All you need is your normal kneeling body weight on the 1' wheelbrace, which happens to work out to about the 100Nm required (funny about that, it almost as if it was planned that way).

They didn't "undo". Let me guess, the logic goes something like this. It comes loose, so you tighten it more and more and more until the stud is terminally fatigued. If you have a careful look at the base of your studs I could guarantee that they are looking a bit "crystalline", if not visibly stretched.

Change your studs.

[MQSWBUTE]

i always use a put the wheel nuts on by hand to make sure its on right then i go with the rattle gun then tyre iron never had a prob alot of people i know are mech's and they do the same thing

if u wanna go nut about it use a tourqe wrench

u cant tell me using a rattle gun it bad i often find i still gettin half a turn before its tight enuff to make me happy

maybe u cross threded the wheel nuts (meaning u didnt put them on by hand first)

[midnight]

maybe u cross threded the wheel nuts (meaning u didnt put them on by hand first)

If this had happened, then the nuts would have been f'ing hard to get off wouldnt they?

[RaginRover]

maybe u cross threded the wheel nuts (meaning u didnt put them on by hand first)

If this had happened, then the nuts would have been f'ing hard to get off wouldnt they?

Yep I have broken a stud with after a tyreshop cross threaded a wheel nut, went back to them and they of course blamed me...

Tom

[Bluefreak]

I have had this happen also after a wheel change, get the muds on

I had returned from a camping trip with a camper trailer on the back and kids in the car. Dropped the kids and trailer off; driving down the highway and it started making a hell of a shuddering noise. Quickly exited and found all nuts were about to come off on the lefthand front wheel
I was just thankful it didn't come off going down 'the gap' from Warrick with kids and trailer.

I do my nuts up with a half drive ratchet and then nip them another quarter/half turn with the 4ft breaker bar; needless to say i was shocked they could undo.

Taught me to check them every day for about a week after doing a tyre change; i suggest the same to anyone that has daily tyres and muds they swap around for playing

common thread here....overtorquing. The manufacturer gave you a 1' long wheelbrace for a reason (if it wasnt safe to do them up that "loose" then they would have been in deep shit by now). The manufacturer didn't supply a 4' breaker...what does that tell you?

All you need is your normal kneeling body weight on the 1' wheelbrace, which happens to work out to about the 100Nm required (funny about that, it almost as if it was planned that way).

They didn't "undo". Let me guess, the logic goes something like this. It comes loose, so you tighten it more and more and more until the stud is terminally fatigued. If you have a careful look at the base of your studs I could guarantee that they are looking a bit "crystalline", if not visibly stretched.

Change your studs.

They gave me a 1' brace then taught all their mechanics to use a bloody rattle gun... I have to de-torque all wheel nuts after a service, even after repeatedly requesting them to use a torque wrench...

[ed.]

I use a torque wrench set to 110nm and never had a problem.

[dibbz]

Maybe your neighbours got the $h!t$ with you using the rattle gun and decided to loosen one of your wheels :)

[bastard]

Maybe you were just far to stoned and when you went to pack another billy you forgot all about that wheel,it happens to so many of us all the time,one nite Gremace lost three wheels and his anal dignity.

[shorty_f0rty]

Maybe you were just far to stoned and when you went to pack another billy you forgot all about that wheel,it happens to so many of us all the time,one nite Gremace lost three wheels and his anal dignity.

hehe.. if only that was the case.. but not this time.

I hand thread all nuts before blasting em with the rattle gun and by the time all are done up the aircompressor is kicking in to refill the tank.. so they aren't getting done all the way up with the ratlle gun...

dibbz, you might be onto something with the neighbours.. but none of them have cars so i doubt theyd be able to undo them anyway.. Id like to see the 75yrold downstairs try and get em loose with a wheelbrace

[dibbz]

Yeh I went out and checked the tyre I had to replace after you mentioned what happened. Fearing I had a stoner moment too.

Got a new rim today and it seems those wheel nuts were free.

[Davidh]

Ok, sorry if off topic, but you take the cat for a drive at night?

On topic, some tyre places use the attachments on the rattle guns that are a certain length which determines torque applied, different colours too.
I've found they end up a lot looser than what's really needed.
Still better than overtorqued.

Never use a rattle gun on the spare wheel carrier of a LR Discovery!

[ForceAnt]

Got a pic of the hub without wheel on?

For all 6 nuts to be loose-stretched-stripped-whatever is a bit hard to swallow- I wouldnt mind betting that the wheel wasnt sitting properly on the hub, which meant u tightened the nuts to the wheel but the wheel wasnt hard up!

cheers Ant

[Rangie Thing]

I have heard of people from out of town driving around and getting a flat.
And then just going for a walk to find a spare (most people just find there spare gone)

[SiKiD_01]

if the studs are toolong for the nut, ie, the stud bottoms out in the nut before the wheel is on the hub tight, then maybe you aren't tightening the wheel onto the hub, but tightening the nut onto the stud.

are the centre thicknesses the same on the 2 set of rims?

edit: just saw the pic again, and the nuts are nut and bolt nuts, and not flash chrome covered nuts. my bad. maybe lock-tight the suckers on.

[fnqcairns]

Never used a rattle gun on wheel nuts personally although I always at first oportunity check by hand the job done after I had some work done by a tyre company, lost count of overtight or undertight nuts I have come across.

Rightly or wrongly my father (who was never a city slicker, growing up on farm in the bush etc) always told me to lightly grease each stud before doing up, seem that was the common practice since before Austin Healeys were a trick piece of engineering, been doing that forever now with never a problem.

cheers fnq

[DeWsE]

This happened to me a while ago.

After inspecting what could have been the problem and talking to others it became apparent that this happens to a fair few people. We came up with the idea that maybe the rim wasn’t seated on the studs correctly. You would all know that if you tighten one side first it can cause the rim to be off centre. The thread on the stud then grabs the rim and holds it. I suppose using a rattle gun may have tightened one side up to much.

I noticed that the rim was spinning a bit of centre and when we stopped and checked if it was moving it was tight. Later down the road it fell off.

I assumed this would happen to alloy’s quite easy given the softness of the material and thickness. But it could happen to a steely as well.

[hypo]

if u use a rattle gun to tighten the wheel nuts, y do u then go to the servo for air ??

anyways back on topic,

sounds to me like u have either forgotten to do the final tighten or the rim was not sitting hard against the hub..