After diagrams for the injector pump

[trains]

Hi chaps.
Im after some diagrams/ manuals on the injector pump for a 2.8 3L diesel.
Have searched, but not found anything here.
obviously the manual in the gregories just wimps out and says take it to your dealer .

Any piccies, specs etc would help, so far goodle has not been my friend.

Trains

[phippsy]

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~jag/vw/eng ... jpump.html

Not specifically for a hilux, but may help. All I could find so far.

[trains]

Thanks mate,
I found that already, but its not exactly what im after.
Many thanks for posting the link tho, appreciate it.

T

[Dzltec]

What do you want to know?

Toyota factory manual has a lot of info, however special tools are involved in pulling the pump apart.

Hope this helps

[trains]

Hi Dzltec,

I would like a detailed shematic of the unit, and steps to take to overhaul it including timing settings, pump pressures specs, and how to set them.
I assume its a single pump, with each firing stroke being directed to the appropriate cyld.
I would like to at least test the pump myself before committing to an overhaul. I figured if I could test the spill pressures/ timing myself, I could get an idea of what its doing, and if its out of spec, can it be adjusted, or is it an overhaul jobbie on the bench for the piston to be replaced/ repaired etc.

Reason for asking is this.

I originally got the injectors done when I got it, but didnt have the $$ to get the pump o/h at the time as was reccomended by the diesel chap.

It went great for a while, had alot of zip, for a hilux, but then it seemed to loose its shine, this happened noticabley and I thought it was just a run of fuel not soo good.
Still goes well, but I used to get up to 85k up the hill, now it only gets up to 65.
Milage is down about 1lt/ 100 if that. Was getting 8.5-9.5 now were at 10.5 pretty much what ever I do.
Do injectors settle in, and need resetting after overhaul??

When heading up hills, I dont hold the throttle flat, I hold it just above where i can feel its pulling, and no more, or at lower revs, the black smoke is noticable.
It dosent blow excessive black smoke, unless its cold and i give it a blip then there is a light black smoke out the exhaust. ie its not blowing out heaps, its running clean, and only pops a bit out at high load low rpm, or when its below operating temp. Well thats when ive noticed it.

The other thing is that I left it without starting it for a week, and it didnt want to start, it felt like the fuel had drained back, and it took a bit to refuel the pump rail, (very simmilar to when you dont fully fill the fuel filter, and start it being lazy, and it fluffs and runs rough.

Took about 3 goes to start it, once it got fuel to it, it ran fine again.

Im still new to diesels, is this a description of an air leak, and could you explain to me how one could affect the running of the vehicle.
There are no fuel leaks anywhere tank/ lines, filter pump etc.

I even in desperation have checked the filter below the idle stop soleniod which is clean as a whistle.

Ive used some of the toyota diesel treatment, and have changed the filter twice in a few months now, as I was uncertain of the tanks condition.
I undid the drain on the tank and there was no water, just clean diesel which was a good sign. Have not found any water in the filters I did either.

Any suggetions would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Trains

[hdj105]

Trains,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the injection pump is a very complex item and to set one up properly you need a proper test bench, where the pump can be run at different speeds, different feed pressures, and accurate measurement of discharge, etc, etc, etc.

Injection shops unfortunately pay heaps for this equipment ($100,000's of $$$), and they also like to pass this on too :-(

[trains]

Yeah mate, your right.
Bugger!

Still trying to sort out whats going on first tho if I can.
trying to elmininate the easy stuff first.

Cant be that hard to put in an inline pressure guage to let me know whats happening per cyld tho.

Trains.......needs a job.

[Deleted User]

Does this help ??? -----

http://www.toyotasurf.asn.au/techsite/fuelpump.htm

http://toyotadiesel.com/photopost/showg ... hp?cat=507

[hdj105]

Any suggetions would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Trains

A quick and simple test for air, as your pump could be sucking air through the primer pump on top of the filter, etc, without actually leaking out diesel.

Replace the piece of hose between the filter outlet and the pump inlet with some clear plastic tube. If it shows any bubbles while running, driving, etc, then you have an air leak to find. I wouldn't leave the plastic tube on for too long as it will go hard over time, probably not heat resistent, etc.

[trains]

The Gatta,

Thanks mate, thats heading in the right direction. Good stuff.

Hdj105, I think I will put some clear hose in the inlet side and have a look.
will an air leak on the inlet side cause syptoms ive described thus far?

Only other thing I can think of is that the priming pump is leaking air, but I can pump it up hard, and it dosent leak, altho it does tak 8 -12 pumps to bring it up to pressure if its been sitting for an hr after running.
come to think of it, I dont think it primed the last empty fuel filter, I think I might be onto something here.
Always the light of a bright idea happens late at night.

cheers

Trains

[trains]

Ok there is definately a leak in the priming pump diaphragm.

Put a clear hose in the tank to filter side, pumped up albeit slowly, but clear as a bell, no air leaks there.
Put it on the filter to engine side, and it would leak down drawing in air after priming it up, Didnt run the engine yet.
If I clamped off the return line, it would stop drawing in air.

I can hear it after pumping a few times, and leaving it, there is no air, then slowly, it drains away, and you can hear the tiny squeak of a leak happening.
I filled the tube, so that it was full with no air in it before running.
Strange thing is, when its running I cant detect any air bubbles going thru the line, however I used a Z14 fuel filter, as a joiner, which was primed full of fuel, and this level would drop, and a larger air pocket would develop.

However whilst running, I can not detect any air bubbles in the clear line, and the air pocket in the filter dosent get any larger.

Edited to add.

Tried the clear hose on the return line too.
Some fine misty bubbles when I first hooked it up, but after putting some rpm on it, they stopped, only a fine mist every now and then.

Tried bleeding the injector lines when running too since there was diesel everywhere . They seemed fine too.


Edited to add.

So the real question is this.
Will an air leak at the priming pump cause a performance drop of 20k/hr up a hill ?

The chaps at the diesel place where I got my injectors done, said that it was the pump, as putting on new injectors with higher pressures will upset the pumps performance.
I thought this to be a little hard to believe that it would just happen quickly as it has. I would have expected a slow change if this were the case.

your opinions and advice are much appreciated in this.

Trains

[Evil 73]

If you want a schematic diagram contact Mark at thealteredstate.com and he may be able to help you in the right direction.

[Dzltec]

Have a look in the toyota manual, its all there for you. Even shows you how to test a pump and the procedures.

In reference to air in system, fit clear lines to both the inlet and return side of the pump, go for a hard drive, then look at the lines. If there are air bubbles, you have a sucking air problem, either form the supply side of the fuel system or the pump. Yes an inejctor pump will suck air through the front seal but not allow any fuel to leak out.

[trains]

Hi Dzltec,
Thanks for your advice, I would appreciate your input to the following overview of whats going on mate.

The reason for first asking about the injector pump was that the diesel chap said that the pump would not cope with the new injectors pressure, he also said that the toyota way of setting the cam belt tension was too high, and that the factory way of setting it was too tight, and would cause premature failure of the injector pump bushes, and thus air leaks etc.

Does this sound right to you ?.
I had the feeling they were trying for an injector pump service o/h .

I did the timing belt when I had the injectors out being serviced.
Set up the tension after rotating engine 4 times etc etc etc. Spring was within spec for length etc.

I could appreciate where he was coming from, however ive tried searching on the forum for anyone else having their injector pump fail, or reduce in performance after getting their injectors cleaned, and I couldnt bring anything up like that, well in all honesty the search function brought up alot of other stuff too.

In this search, I came across the diesel gremlin called an air leak, and am slowly learning about its affect on engine performance, which got me thinking that I should check the basics first.
Ok so im just a mechanic with only petrol diagnosis experiece.
So right back to the basic beginning I thought, instead of following the injector pump road.

I tried checking for air to the filter, then filter to pump, and after pump.

I originally thought that if it pulled a small amount of air into the pump, it would be seperated before getting near the piston and distributor, and thus not affect it, but I assume that once its in past the rotary pump, it airates the diesel, and it goes everywhere, thus affecting its performance.
Am I right in assuming this?
Anyway.
When testing the priming pump, I could see, and hear it leaking air, I removed the top of the pump, and dripped some diesel down into it to see if it would suck the diesel in, and it would show up in the clear line instead of air.
It seems that now after doing that, the leak may have stopped.
I would pump the piston after a few mins of checking the leak, engine running, or engine off for a few mins, and it would be quite easy to pump, and would take a few pumps to bring it up to pressure, say 6 or so.
Today when I tested it, it took 3 pumps to bring it up to pressure, and the first few pumps were quite hard compared to what it was like before.

Is it normal for the priming pump to be easy to pump, and take a bit to get to pressure, or, should it be firm to pump always once its been initially bled of air?

I feel like im running around in circles now as I only know enough to be dangerous but im learning fast, as you do in this trade.

I think I will give it a day or 2 and see if its still the same, and await on yours and others advice before deciding on what action if any to take.

So the real question is what could cause a drop off in performance that ive described earlier. Could an air leak do this, or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Your advice, and opinions are appreciated.



Trains.

[Dzltec]

firstly, when injectors get old, they drop off in opening pressure over a 100,000km period. This lets in more fuel, its the law of hydraulics. When they are reset, the opening pressure is set back to original specs, so you see a lack in power compared to what you are used to, a sudden change.

In saying that the pump may not handle it is him saying that if its done some km's, its probaly out of specs as well, things do wear out over time. Possibly an escape clause.

Timing belt tension settings should follow the manufacturers advice. Yes if the belt is too tight it will load up the drive shaft of the injection pump. This will over time wear out the bushes. This then can lead to fuel leaks or belt shredding.

Another thing to check is that your throttle lever on the pump is touching the stopper bolt, ie getting full throttle.

When pumping the primer handle on the fuel filter housing, you will get to the stage when it becomes hard, this is normal, it will be soft again next time its switched off as the overflow control is a very small restriction.

To prove if its the pump or something else, plumb up a 4litre container of fuel, put the overflow line in it and go for a drive. if there is a difference, you have a supply line issue, if not after checking all the basics, you have a pump problem.

hope this helps

[trains]

firstly, when injectors get old, they drop off in opening pressure over a 100,000km period. This lets in more fuel, its the law of hydraulics. When they are reset, the opening pressure is set back to original specs, so you see a lack in power compared to what you are used to, a sudden change.

I found that the performance was alot more spritely after the injectors were done, then performance dropped quite quickly and noticably, I though that it was a bad batch of fuel or something.



In saying that the pump may not handle it is him saying that if its done some km's, its probaly out of specs as well, things do wear out over time. Possibly an escape clause.

That sounds fair enough to me.




Timing belt tension settings should follow the manufacturers advice. Yes if the belt is too tight it will load up the drive shaft of the injection pump. This will over time wear out the bushes. This then can lead to fuel leaks or belt shredding.

Belt tension was set as per toyotas specs, rotate engine 4x then tighten tensioner at that spot they said that was still to tight and would damage the pump shaft bushes, ive left it as per standard setting.




Another thing to check is that your throttle lever on the pump is touching the stopper bolt, ie getting full throttle.

Yep, thats all ok.




When pumping the primer handle on the fuel filter housing, you will get to the stage when it becomes hard, this is normal, it will be soft again next time its switched off as the overflow control is a very small restriction.

Thanks, just what I needed to know.




To prove if its the pump or something else, plumb up a 4litre container of fuel, put the overflow line in it and go for a drive. if there is a difference, you have a supply line issue, if not after checking all the basics, you have a pump problem.

Thanks mate, if it is a pump sucking air, would an elec fuel pump fitted before the filter help it by pressureising the pump?

Trains



hope this helps

[trains]

Ok,
I think the problem has been nailed thanks to your helpfull advice.

I didnt have a container to bypass the filter assy, so I just hooked up the z14 fuel filter to the inlet and outlet hoses, and thought Id give it a go.

It seemed to be a little smoother, and more responsive, however that was only on the flat.

I took it up the hill, which is some kms away, and the last time I was up there, with no speed restrictions, I was getting a woeful 65ks out of it starting from 100kms/hr.
Today at the midway point the speed limit was down from 100 to 60k.
I was getting 80 at this point, which seemed better than before.
After getting past the speed restriction of 60k, and into the 100 section again, I was able to accelerate up to 80k all whilst heading up the hill. Without the speed restriction in place, I would have been back up to 85k or so.

So i can only deduce that the filter housing/ priming pump was sucking air, and thus affecting its performance.
I have to be honest, im quite surprised that this will knock the edge off the performance in the way it did.

Many thanks to those who have posted and helped me in this.
I hope that its also helped others, ive learned alot, and i hope others have too.

cheers

Trains
Yes, I got a new priming pump housing assy from toyota, and fitted it this arvo. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to test it with the new unit, however I am confident that this is the problem.
I took the older unit apart, and inspected the diaphragm, however it was not obvious of where it could have leaked, but the rubber was hard.

The only time Ive been caught with a vac leak, but no leak under pressure was with an 85 colt, the water pipe pushes into the rear of the water pump, and is sealed with a rubber o ring.
Fine under pressure, but under vac, it would leak air.
Thus when the cooling system got warm, water went into the overflow, but when it cooled, it didnt recover the coolant from the overflow, but would suck air. Thus the system would lose water to the point that it would eventually over heat. Took me a few days to find that problem, once I realised it was a vac leak, it didnt take long to find the culprit.

Cheers
Trains