panhard bar for front of sierra SPOA

[SiKiD_01]

i had a look through the sierra bible, and i couldnt find much on panhards in the front of sierras.

has anyone got one, made one, seen one, or just know anything about it?

its a NT sierra running SPOA WT diffs. ATM it has a Z link, but soon to have Hi-Steer.

whats the go?

thanks

[lay80n]

Can help keep the front axle located under the car, but i wouldnt really think that it would be a great advantage in your situation. If your drag link (once you go high steer/x-over steer) is flat of close to flat when the car is at ride height then bump steer shouldnt be a great issue. What are ya trying to achive with it, is there a problem your trying to chace??? or just curiosity. Leaf rockys had a panhard rod on the front, but when you lift them most people take them off, as a longer version isnt available readily. Remember that leaves travel up and down, where as an axle with a panhard rod travels in an arc perscribed by the panhard rod length. This can cause binding with long travel setups.


Layto....

[SiKiD_01]

thanks for the input lay80n. i know exactly what a panhard is, and how it works to limit and stabilise lateral left right movement on a diff.

i was more after how other people have set them up, and pics of how they did it.

well, story is..... a mate has bought a sierra, NT hard top, with all 1.3 WT running gear. has spring over set up, with flat springs on NT mountings. trying to get it engineered up here, even though its has already been engineered in another state, the engineer is not happy with a few things.

Z link has been cut and welded, no x-ray certs, or paper work with it. apparently made by overkill eng. so engineer not happy. need to go hi-steer now.

when shaking the steering wheel left and right as you would to check steering component looseness, the shackles on the front have movement side to side. this is arguable, but the engineer is not happy with this movement, saying that the movement will cause excessive stress on the shackle mount on the front of the chassis, and may tear off. the worn rubber bushes in the springs didnt help at the time, but i would have thought just getting the bushes replaced would stiffen things up a lot.

the sierra has a vitara power steering box fitted.

now the engineer wants this left right movement gone, by way of panhard bar. there is really no room under the front end to fit one, but i guess you just need it on for rego inspections only. something like sway bars, where you can just take them off and put them on when you want.

so..... thats the story as short as i can tell it. its a leaf srpung sierra of all cars, why do we need a 400mm panhard bar for? anyway, we need to fit a panhard bar in the front to pass engineers and get rego.

[Bad JuJu]

http://www.spidertrax.com/s.nl/it.A/id. ... tegory=119

[Damo]

If the engineer says put one on, then you really dont have much of a choice. As Juju suggested, Spidertrax do a panhard kit, but if I was you guys I wouldn't bother buying one. Try find some pics of how theirs fits in and build it like that. Instead of using rod ends look around at wreckers for control arms or panhards from other vehicles. All you need to do is figure out the approx. length you need and find the closest to that.

Did the engineer suggest any way to build it? Eg, keeping it parallel to the drag link? I would get his input on this stuff before you go ahead.

Lastly, you will find that OFF road it will handle better with a panhard, as the tyres will steer rather than just pushing the axle to the side.

[SiKiD_01]

thanks for the input guys.

i had a good look at the spidertrax one, and it basically replaces the top plates on the springs with new ones which have the brackets welded in. the other end is then U bolted to the chassis.

a few problems i noticed when i had a look under the sierra. the spring mounting are that of NT, so they are inboard a bit more. the right hand side chassis rail had: brake lines, fuel lines, engine mount, and power steer box, not to mention the pumpkin being on that side also.

if we had sourced a panhard from the wreckers, it would need to be cut and shut, ie, shortened, and then brackets made to fit. the engineer dude said it was ok to cut and weld the panhard, but not acceptable to cut and weld steering components. he is also very against rod ends, rose/heim joints. he says they always snap off. anyway....

the onle way i can see a panhard fitting up the front of this sierra, is to make a bracket/mount on top of the diff pumpkin, and run the panhard out to the passenger side chassis rail.

now in doing this, there will be clearance issues under extreme articulation. if we fit the panhard here, it will be directly above the diff, very close to the sump, and the passenger side will have about 75mm upwards travel before the spring plate touches the panhard mount/bar.

this also makes the panhard bar very short. there really is no way around it. we cant put the panhard on the front of the diff, because there is no room with all the steering components, and we cant put it behind the diff either.

if he had more lift in the sierra, it wouldnt be so bad. but i dont think there is much option for us, unless we see pics of it done otherwise.

keeping the panhard as level as possible is good, but i think the mounts are what determines how level the panhard is. how about bending the panhard? i see a lot of jeep and patrol panhards bent to clear. maybe that might work???

thanks again.

EDIT: if we put the panhard from the top of the diff pumpkin to the left chassis rail, it is the opposite to the drag link. will this still work, or will it just increase in bumpsteer?

[Damo]

Now you know why the tie rod is behind the axle on coilys

keeping the panhard as level as possible is good, but i think the mounts are what determines how level the panhard is. how about bending the panhard? i see a lot of jeep and patrol panhards bent to clear. maybe that might work???

From what I have read I believe you are correct in that keeping the panhard parallel to the draglink is a good thing. Also, that the angle of the plane joining the mounts is the effective panhard angle, as you mentioned. But considering the space restrictions you are encountering you may just have to put in a bent panhard. I think the benefits of this would outweigh the negatives. It would be interesting to hear what the engineer has to say about this.

[redzook]

Z link has been cut and welded, no x-ray certs, or paper work with it. apparently made by overkill eng. so engineer not happy. need to go hi-steer now.

i find that unlikley

the overkill part

[SiKiD_01]

Z link has been cut and welded, no x-ray certs, or paper work with it. apparently made by overkill eng. so engineer not happy. need to go hi-steer now.

i find that unlikley

the overkill part

it may be unlikely, but when my mate bought the sierra, the previous owner did not have any paper work on it. so maybe it was mis-placed. i did not say that the Z link was no good, or it was shit or anything. besides, the previous owner had all the mods engineered in NSW, and a 4 page report came with the car also.

thats all.

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Just a update on the Panhard bar, I have sorced a VK Commodore panhard bar and rear diff, I was able to cut the bracket of the diff to weld on to the Sierra diff. I will now look at making the panhard bar adjustable as one option this will make fitting it possibly easier as i can get a close measurement of the lenght of the bar needed cut it down then in can be adjusted accordingly to fit. So far the Panhard bar project has cost nothing so I will post pics soon and maybe it can be added into the tech section.

[Guy]

EDIT: if we put the panhard from the top of the diff pumpkin to the left chassis rail, it is the opposite to the drag link. will this still work, or will it just increase in bumpsteer?

Will increase bumpsteer by a serious amount.. If the engineer passes it he is an idiot.

[SiKiD_01]

EDIT: if we put the panhard from the top of the diff pumpkin to the left chassis rail, it is the opposite to the drag link. will this still work, or will it just increase in bumpsteer?

Will increase bumpsteer by a serious amount.. If the engineer passes it he is an idiot.

yes he is an idiot. why do you need a panhard for a leaf sprung vehicle? hands up to all those who have a SPOA sierra and NO panhard bar up front!

its a light car, its not a bloody pootrol or cruiser.

when we asked him (the engineer) how to set up the panhard, he just said to make brackets on the diff and the chassis, and have a bar in between. he even suggested using a panhard from a cruiser and cutting it down to fit.

i asked if it was ok to have it the opposite to the steering drag link, and he said sure, no worries. like, um, duh, you're not a real engineer!

[Rotazuk]

This is a heavier vehicle but a diahatsu Rocky/rugger/toy Blizzard has a front panhard rod standard and they are sprung under . Was surprised as I ripped the axles out and found it there . Was going to say it may be a good fit but looks like you have a commy one sorted .

Chris

[Gwagensteve]

F250/350 Fords and YJ Wranglers all had panhards (Ford only on the front, Jeep both)

The angle and mounting points on the panhard will need to be as close as possible to the mounts/angle of the drag link to minimise bump steer.

I guess there is a message here - don't show the car to an engineer without the little things sorted like bushes etc. I have not heard of an engineer requesting a panhard before on a SPOA, but now he has seen the wobble, you re not getting away without one.

It will be hard to get the panhard long enough to eliminate bumpsteer. that's why most of the compromises are in the front of a coiler. Even the wider track is partially there to gat the longest possible panhard into the front of the car.

The mounts will have to be on the outside of the chassis on the steering box side to make it long enough, and finish up as close to the passenger side knuckle and on line with the tie rod if you have high steer.

Just my 2c worth.

Steve

[Guy]

EDIT: if we put the panhard from the top of the diff pumpkin to the left chassis rail, it is the opposite to the drag link. will this still work, or will it just increase in bumpsteer?

Will increase bumpsteer by a serious amount.. If the engineer passes it he is an idiot.

yes he is an idiot. why do you need a panhard for a leaf sprung vehicle? hands up to all those who have a SPOA sierra and NO panhard bar up front!

its a light car, its not a bloody pootrol or cruiser.

Do you reckon that spidertrax went to the trouble of desgining a panhard of there was not a market for one ?

IF I had kept my Zuk I was going to fabricate and install one, for the better steering feel and the abilty to retain some sort of steering ability when the one of the front wheels dropped into a hole.

I guess you dont need a traction bar on the rear of a SPOA vehcile either, I lived for years and about 100,000 Kms without one... should I have installed one .. YES it would have saved countless sets of springs and uni joints and had far more pleasureable driving experiance.

If your steering is that loose and bushes are worn and this thing will see the street, do what the engineer says and do it properly.

[germo]

heres my opinion!

I have a panhard bar on the front of my zook, it handles like a race car!
handle better then a standard suzuki, before the panhard bar the front end would move across a few inches before the wheels turned.

the bar does effect travel a bit only when the passenger side trys to drop.

i did tuff truck with the bar in, in hindsight I should have taken it out!
but hey I came 7th....... or maybe I'm just a good driver!

if you drive it on the road, it needs to handle well full stop!

im not sure of my measurements, but it uses shackle bushes at both ends.
its a neat fit and the bump stops, stop it from fouling anything!

this is the best pick I have at the moment, i'll try for one on the weekend!

enjoy ashley

[SiKiD_01]

thanks Germo for the info and pic. it helps a lot.

i'm not against panhards or engineers, its not even my zook. but the real main factor for us is space.

there is hardly no room to set up the panhard properly. the springs are mounted NT width, and there is about 3"-4" between top plate on springs and the bumpstop.

also, if we try to make it parallel to the ground, ie as flat as we can, the panhard would hit on the bottom of the sump. but if we make it parallel with the drag link, the panhard will be extremely short. the panhard would end up fitting inbetween the chassis rails.

do panhards need to be straight? or can they have a Z link arrangement?

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Germo How much up travel do you have on your Sierra...? We were thinking of doing the Panhard bar same as yours but we worried about the bar fowling on the sump...? More pics would be great.

With the Spidertrax bar the problem with that set up is its from the States so it is all the other way around, mounting points to the chassis would be a problem. I am thinking of using the bump stop bolting point as a section to mount too.

[Bad JuJu]

Just do a mirror image installation

[SiKiD_01]

with the springs on top of the diff, and the diff perch, and the lowered bump stop, i'm thinking that there isnt much room to fit a bracket mounting on top of the leaf springs.

i'll try to get a pic of the front end of the sierra.

[Guy]

thanks Germo for the info and pic. it helps a lot.

i'm not against panhards or engineers, its not even my zook. but the real main factor for us is space.

there is hardly no room to set up the panhard properly. the springs are mounted NT width, and there is about 3"-4" between top plate on springs and the bumpstop.

also, if we try to make it parallel to the ground, ie as flat as we can, the panhard would hit on the bottom of the sump. but if we make it parallel with the drag link, the panhard will be extremely short. the panhard would end up fitting inbetween the chassis rails.

do panhards need to be straight? or can they have a Z link arrangement?

They don't need to be strait at all ... take a look at a factory TJ jeep panhard .. its crooked as a dogs back leg

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Just got a update on the panhard bar with a photo of the gear I will be using, it is now welded, It may look dodgy but I checked out a adjustable one from Whiteline suspension and its made the exact same way as this welding a nut on the end of some tube and using a threaded bolt and nut for adjustability.

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Here it is welded ready to be mounted up now.