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2 scoops got through Aussie Pilch unstolen - one picture
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2 scoops got through Aussie Pilch unstolen - one picture
Well, since the Contractor that took off with several grand worth of mail, including my first set of scoops, no longer works at Aussie Post, these two made it all the way here.
This is a picture of them just sitting in their approximate places prior to taking them into a panel beater to be painted, then installing them this weekend (and yes they will be functional working scoops with the bonnet cut accordingly.)
And I know these are not a solution to the heating problems I've had, but at $40 it was a very very cheap contribution to reducing the problem, and once painted should look quite cool as well (no pun intended).
Any ideas what I should seal the cut edges of the bonnet with? Would just touch-up paint do? I live a long way from the coast and in pretty dry climate, so rust isn't going to be a huge issue. Or should I go the whole route of primer, rust proofer, etc and then some touch-up paint, or is touch up paint not really suitable either.
It's not like it's going to be a highly visible paint job anyway under the scoop, frankly I could care less if it was el-cheap Dulux/Taubman's/Whatever Home Decorator paint.
This is a picture of them just sitting in their approximate places prior to taking them into a panel beater to be painted, then installing them this weekend (and yes they will be functional working scoops with the bonnet cut accordingly.)
And I know these are not a solution to the heating problems I've had, but at $40 it was a very very cheap contribution to reducing the problem, and once painted should look quite cool as well (no pun intended).
Any ideas what I should seal the cut edges of the bonnet with? Would just touch-up paint do? I live a long way from the coast and in pretty dry climate, so rust isn't going to be a huge issue. Or should I go the whole route of primer, rust proofer, etc and then some touch-up paint, or is touch up paint not really suitable either.
It's not like it's going to be a highly visible paint job anyway under the scoop, frankly I could care less if it was el-cheap Dulux/Taubman's/Whatever Home Decorator paint.
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I would love to have it all done properly by a panel beater, but unfortunately the finances are very limited (wait till the wife hears I'm painting the scoops :( )
So I have way more pressing things to put money into - like the last vestiges of the cooling problem - before spending money getting the bonnet painted properly. I'll make it rustproof, and then that's all it needs. It's not like I'll have the bonnet open at show and shines or anything.
It's very lucky that there are almost no structural parts in the approximate positions the scoops are at the moment. So whilst there is no way I would have cut the structural sections, I won't have to cut them anyway because there is nothing but skin over both ends of the turbo overtube. So the scoops can go in the most useful spot, and still miss any structural areas at the same time.
So I have way more pressing things to put money into - like the last vestiges of the cooling problem - before spending money getting the bonnet painted properly. I'll make it rustproof, and then that's all it needs. It's not like I'll have the bonnet open at show and shines or anything.
It's very lucky that there are almost no structural parts in the approximate positions the scoops are at the moment. So whilst there is no way I would have cut the structural sections, I won't have to cut them anyway because there is nothing but skin over both ends of the turbo overtube. So the scoops can go in the most useful spot, and still miss any structural areas at the same time.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
Only problem with setting the scoops up like that is it can actually pressurise the space behind the radiator and reduces the total airflow through it, exacerbating the problem you are trying to fix. (air flows across a pressure gradient - the bigger the gradient, the more air flows.)
What you need to do is to actually let hot air out rather than trying to pump more air in.
A more effective way would be to make a "snorkle" that faces rearwards at roof level, with an underbonnet air pickup running from the firewall at the windscreen level. In effect a legal way of the old "spacers under the bonnet hinge" method.
What you need to do is to actually let hot air out rather than trying to pump more air in.
A more effective way would be to make a "snorkle" that faces rearwards at roof level, with an underbonnet air pickup running from the firewall at the windscreen level. In effect a legal way of the old "spacers under the bonnet hinge" method.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
Most of the heat from the engine would escape below the car wouldn't it?
I have also read that scoops can be detrimental to removing heat...
Looking at the Evo Lancers.. they have a vent just after the radiator, which I suppose would force air to flow through the radiator/intercooler more efficiently and get sucked out of the bonnet through the air pressure difference created by high speed air passing over the vent.
Most of the time, a scoop is used to feed air to a top mount intercooler and not to cool the engine.
Why not remove your lights on the bullbar too? It might help with airflow.
I have also read that scoops can be detrimental to removing heat...
Looking at the Evo Lancers.. they have a vent just after the radiator, which I suppose would force air to flow through the radiator/intercooler more efficiently and get sucked out of the bonnet through the air pressure difference created by high speed air passing over the vent.
Most of the time, a scoop is used to feed air to a top mount intercooler and not to cool the engine.
Why not remove your lights on the bullbar too? It might help with airflow.
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
The scoops are more there for the turbo than for heat removal anyway.
There will soonish be an intercooler under one of them as well.
If you look closely at the photo you'll see the back of the bonnet is already raised onto extra washers to allow heat out up the windscreen and made absolutely NO difference whatsoever.
I was told to decide which way to face the scoops based on the way the manufacturer faces theirs - and Nissan face theirs forward, so apparently intend heat to go down and under the car, so the scoops should help.
If the manufacturer faces their scoops rearward, they've intended heat to escape up.
The work coming up on the fuel system and on the turbo are more solving what little there is left of the heat problem than these are, because basically the car's heat problem is well and truly manageable at present, having not boiled in quite a long time despite the weather now being much warmer than it was when it used to boil.
Painted bonnet colour they'll look plenty bling too, which is rarely a bad thing
There will soonish be an intercooler under one of them as well.
If you look closely at the photo you'll see the back of the bonnet is already raised onto extra washers to allow heat out up the windscreen and made absolutely NO difference whatsoever.
I was told to decide which way to face the scoops based on the way the manufacturer faces theirs - and Nissan face theirs forward, so apparently intend heat to go down and under the car, so the scoops should help.
If the manufacturer faces their scoops rearward, they've intended heat to escape up.
The work coming up on the fuel system and on the turbo are more solving what little there is left of the heat problem than these are, because basically the car's heat problem is well and truly manageable at present, having not boiled in quite a long time despite the weather now being much warmer than it was when it used to boil.
Painted bonnet colour they'll look plenty bling too, which is rarely a bad thing
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
IMHO don't paint them. They'll look better black, and match with your snorkel and bullbar.
I don't beleive they'll fix an overheating problem and without knowing the history of this or vehicle will not comment any further on that. I do hope i'm wrong though. Good luck
I don't beleive they'll fix an overheating problem and without knowing the history of this or vehicle will not comment any further on that. I do hope i'm wrong though. Good luck
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Premiers 1999, 2007, 2009
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Yes, I fully acknowledge they won't make much difference, or quite likely ANY difference to the heating. They are there to one day take the intercooler, and to look good. If they cool the turbo at all it's a free bonus.
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Simple principle, heat rises. Remove the heat from the upper part of the bonnet/engine bay.
You dont try and cool your house by blowing cool air into the roof......same principle.
Intercooler is going to compound any heat problems you already have.
You dont try and cool your house by blowing cool air into the roof......same principle.
Intercooler is going to compound any heat problems you already have.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
Cooler air is heated by the top mounted intercooler, comes out the bottom of it as hot air. (correctly called "heat soak")Josh n Kat wrote:i dunno damkia, i would say the cooler air going in the engine from the intercooler is gonna help keep engine temps down in the first place.
Cooler air going into engine allows the use of more fuel, using more oxygen and producing more energy as heat.
Last edited by DamTriton on Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
But all hot intake air will be flowing over the top of the engine with the top mount installed.Josh n Kat wrote:i dunno damkia, i would say the cooler air going in the engine from the intercooler is gonna help keep engine temps down in the first place.
To add to this, the scoop forces airflow through the IC to make the intake air cooler. This is turn forces hot air below the IC, with the engine being below it. Hence, the engine will recieve a LOT more hot air around it.
I dont think cooler intake air will really make heaps of difference.. the eingne may work a little easier, but may be negligible heat wise.
[quote="RockyF70 - Coming out of the closet"]i'd be rushing out and buying an IFS rocky[/quote]
disclaimer: I am not familiar with the vehicle and its previous overheating problems. I do, however, know a fair bit about engine cooling, intercooling, and air flow.
Don't cut your bonnet, don't put scoops in it, just don't do it. it will not help your cooling problems, and will (as Gary has already pointed out) probably make them worse. Scoops in the bonnet will almost alwys flow air differently to how you think they will. Air flows from regions of higher to lower relative pressure, but without a wind tunnel and a lot of testing, you CAN NOT determine where those regions of high and low pressure might be, and the added bonus is, they will change with changes in ambient conditions and road speed.
It would appear that what you are aiming for is for cool air to be forced through the vents to cool your motor a little bit. Under certain conditions, it might just work a little bit. however air flow, like electricty, will also take the path of least resistance, which might be that it flows back out through the bonnet vents at a given road speed, against less of a pressure difference, thus reducing the overall flow through the radiator, or the air does indeed flow down through the vents like you want it to, but there is a limit to how much air can escape around the back/sides of the motor, so by pulling more air through the bonnet, you get less air through the radiator. Bingo, overheat.
You also talk about a top mount intercooler - once again, don't do it. A front mount, or water/air cooler is guaranteed to give better, more predictable results. With a top mount, you cannot guarantee the direction of airflow under ANY conditions, and it is likely (almost certain) that under some (most) conditions, hot air from the engine bay will be pumped up through your intercooler by the engine fan(s). you can combat this by putting a fan under the intercooler, but then you end up against the limits of air escaping from the engine bay, and may reduce the flow through your radiator.
whilte we're on the subject, lifting the back of your bonnet may be contributing to your heat problems - at certain speeds, the pressure at the base of the windscreen may well exceed the pressure under the bonnet, forcing air DOWN the gap, and potentially reducing flow through the radiator.
a front mount (or water/air) does put extra heat into your radiator air flow, but it is a small amount, and the actual mass flow of air over the radiator does not change much.
the best way to cure heating is to, as far as possible, stick with the manufacturer's cooling system, and keep it in top condition. Obviously on modified vehicles, this is impossible, so the best thing to do is build in as close to the ENGINE's stock cooling system. If an engine uses an engine-driven fan to draw air through the cooling system, stick with it. Thermo fans, especially when mounted hard against the radiator or condensor, block airflow to a significant proportion of the radiator (have a look at the motor in the middle!) and only pull air through a smallish proportion of the radiator. an engine driven fan iwth a good shroud will draw air through 100% of the radiator area. Use the biggest area radiator you can, before resorting to extra rows in the core. use approx 50/50 coolant/water mix. if an engine is designed for a 92 degree thermostat, use a 92 degree thermostat. a lower temperature thermostat can contribute to overheating!
ok to recap, sell those silly scoops to a ricer, leave your bonnet unmolested, save your money, make your missus happy, step back and have another think about your cooling problems.
hope this is of some help!
DD
Don't cut your bonnet, don't put scoops in it, just don't do it. it will not help your cooling problems, and will (as Gary has already pointed out) probably make them worse. Scoops in the bonnet will almost alwys flow air differently to how you think they will. Air flows from regions of higher to lower relative pressure, but without a wind tunnel and a lot of testing, you CAN NOT determine where those regions of high and low pressure might be, and the added bonus is, they will change with changes in ambient conditions and road speed.
It would appear that what you are aiming for is for cool air to be forced through the vents to cool your motor a little bit. Under certain conditions, it might just work a little bit. however air flow, like electricty, will also take the path of least resistance, which might be that it flows back out through the bonnet vents at a given road speed, against less of a pressure difference, thus reducing the overall flow through the radiator, or the air does indeed flow down through the vents like you want it to, but there is a limit to how much air can escape around the back/sides of the motor, so by pulling more air through the bonnet, you get less air through the radiator. Bingo, overheat.
You also talk about a top mount intercooler - once again, don't do it. A front mount, or water/air cooler is guaranteed to give better, more predictable results. With a top mount, you cannot guarantee the direction of airflow under ANY conditions, and it is likely (almost certain) that under some (most) conditions, hot air from the engine bay will be pumped up through your intercooler by the engine fan(s). you can combat this by putting a fan under the intercooler, but then you end up against the limits of air escaping from the engine bay, and may reduce the flow through your radiator.
whilte we're on the subject, lifting the back of your bonnet may be contributing to your heat problems - at certain speeds, the pressure at the base of the windscreen may well exceed the pressure under the bonnet, forcing air DOWN the gap, and potentially reducing flow through the radiator.
a front mount (or water/air) does put extra heat into your radiator air flow, but it is a small amount, and the actual mass flow of air over the radiator does not change much.
the best way to cure heating is to, as far as possible, stick with the manufacturer's cooling system, and keep it in top condition. Obviously on modified vehicles, this is impossible, so the best thing to do is build in as close to the ENGINE's stock cooling system. If an engine uses an engine-driven fan to draw air through the cooling system, stick with it. Thermo fans, especially when mounted hard against the radiator or condensor, block airflow to a significant proportion of the radiator (have a look at the motor in the middle!) and only pull air through a smallish proportion of the radiator. an engine driven fan iwth a good shroud will draw air through 100% of the radiator area. Use the biggest area radiator you can, before resorting to extra rows in the core. use approx 50/50 coolant/water mix. if an engine is designed for a 92 degree thermostat, use a 92 degree thermostat. a lower temperature thermostat can contribute to overheating!
ok to recap, sell those silly scoops to a ricer, leave your bonnet unmolested, save your money, make your missus happy, step back and have another think about your cooling problems.
hope this is of some help!
DD
Free air locker to the first 20 callers!
Thanks Dumbdunce, but I've never really made a secret of the fact that the scoops are there for looks, and that to make them look less "wannabe" I intended to cut the bonnet and put the inline water cooler for the turbo in there, so that people can see they aren't just ornamental poser carp. I hate the thought of them looking like wannabe poser stuff.
However, it now appears that we have found a much more likely cause of the overheating, which when dealt with probably means we'll likely end up, after all the work that has been done to date, with more cooling than we'll ever need.
For all who've contributed ideas, thoughts and suggestions, here's a little update.
The very first job we got done was to have the fuelling checked, as it was the most likely cause at over 20L/100Kms just driving lightly around town unladen. Based on advice from a forum I asked for the Fuel flow rate to be checked and they found that and the turbo boost to be correct.
Due to this we then dismissed the high fuel use as due to the fact that it's a 3tonne vehicle with an auto transmission and a huge high roof to push through the air, and then looked elsewhere for other causes.
However, I have since been reliably informed that that is not enough to cause that sort of fuel use and to get the fuelling checked again. But this time with better instructions as to what to get the company doing the check to actually do. This diagnosis was further confirmed when we had to remove the turbo overpipe yesterday and found traces of fuel residue all the way up to the pressure sensor for the boost gauge. It must be overfuelling insanely.
It is now booked in for a full service focussed on the fuel system, work that was sposed to have been done in the very beginning but that I didn't know how to ask for. Queanbeyan Diesel (highly regarded) will be pulling the whole fuel pump off and giving it a thorough test along with many other diagnostics including dynoing, EGT, particulates, etc etc etc.
I am told here and elsewhere that overfuelling is a major cause of overheating, and since it's the only remaining cause, it's got to be high on the suspects list. It was right from the start, but I didn't explain correctly what I wanted the company that did the first check to actually do.
I apologise to the many who suggested this as a cause, but I didn't follow it up. I was doing so based on the mistaken idea the system was checked before we did anything else to the vehicle. If someone says to check what you've already had checked, you tend to overlook that suggestion.
Though this is without a doubt this cars last chance to behave. If this fails, then it goes to a wreckers as I will not palm it off onto some other poor soul. And I'll applaud and whistle and cheer as it gets crushed into a cube.
So let's hope this time we have the actual cause, and I can look forward to doing more than 420Kms on 90 litres of fuel.
Gee - I might not even have to carry a jerry can with me just for a trip to the local shop soon
However, it now appears that we have found a much more likely cause of the overheating, which when dealt with probably means we'll likely end up, after all the work that has been done to date, with more cooling than we'll ever need.
For all who've contributed ideas, thoughts and suggestions, here's a little update.
The very first job we got done was to have the fuelling checked, as it was the most likely cause at over 20L/100Kms just driving lightly around town unladen. Based on advice from a forum I asked for the Fuel flow rate to be checked and they found that and the turbo boost to be correct.
Due to this we then dismissed the high fuel use as due to the fact that it's a 3tonne vehicle with an auto transmission and a huge high roof to push through the air, and then looked elsewhere for other causes.
However, I have since been reliably informed that that is not enough to cause that sort of fuel use and to get the fuelling checked again. But this time with better instructions as to what to get the company doing the check to actually do. This diagnosis was further confirmed when we had to remove the turbo overpipe yesterday and found traces of fuel residue all the way up to the pressure sensor for the boost gauge. It must be overfuelling insanely.
It is now booked in for a full service focussed on the fuel system, work that was sposed to have been done in the very beginning but that I didn't know how to ask for. Queanbeyan Diesel (highly regarded) will be pulling the whole fuel pump off and giving it a thorough test along with many other diagnostics including dynoing, EGT, particulates, etc etc etc.
I am told here and elsewhere that overfuelling is a major cause of overheating, and since it's the only remaining cause, it's got to be high on the suspects list. It was right from the start, but I didn't explain correctly what I wanted the company that did the first check to actually do.
I apologise to the many who suggested this as a cause, but I didn't follow it up. I was doing so based on the mistaken idea the system was checked before we did anything else to the vehicle. If someone says to check what you've already had checked, you tend to overlook that suggestion.
Though this is without a doubt this cars last chance to behave. If this fails, then it goes to a wreckers as I will not palm it off onto some other poor soul. And I'll applaud and whistle and cheer as it gets crushed into a cube.
So let's hope this time we have the actual cause, and I can look forward to doing more than 420Kms on 90 litres of fuel.
Gee - I might not even have to carry a jerry can with me just for a trip to the local shop soon
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My 2c...... Dont ask for advice on things bling. You get the purist who wont change a thing about their wheels and think "down" on those that like to be a bit individual and change it by adding and taking away bits. I admire those that think outside the cube, push the rules and not worry about someone having a giggle behind my back............ Go the vents, leave em black and if
it all goes to shit get another bonnet from the wrecker.
it all goes to shit get another bonnet from the wrecker.
Well said.toyotroop wrote:My 2c...... Dont ask for advice on things bling. You get the purist who wont change a thing about their wheels and think "down" on those that like to be a bit individual and change it by adding and taking away bits. I admire those that think outside the cube, push the rules and not worry about someone having a giggle behind my back............ Go the vents, leave em black and if
it all goes to shit get another bonnet from the wrecker.
Though I can't leave them black, they've already been painted, and I pick them up this arvo.
I didn't like the cheap look of the plastic, but I didn't think outside the square enough. I should have had them painted BLACK. Solves the cheap black plastic look, still gives weather protection from sunfade etc. but still has that stand out look.
Oh well, live and learn.
Will install them and cut the bonnet holes tonight if the rain holds off (can't fit in garage) and post a new photo of them then.
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Apparently jeep cherokees have a bit of an overheating problem from the factory (moreso on sand etc); this guy seems pretty cluey with a lot of the stuff he does
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoBonnet.htm
Not for a patrol, but surely the theory should still apply. Also on his site he mentions getting a high flow water pump/thermostat etc with the pros AND cons. Hope that helps
Nick.
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoBonnet.htm
Not for a patrol, but surely the theory should still apply. Also on his site he mentions getting a high flow water pump/thermostat etc with the pros AND cons. Hope that helps
Nick.
A couple more links on cooling by the same guy
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoElectricFan.htm
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoWaterpump.htm
Good reading anyhow
Nick.
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoElectricFan.htm
http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoWaterpump.htm
Good reading anyhow
Nick.
Is the grill part painted? If it's not, it might look a bit standout in black. Just enough to be subtle. You could easily do that yourself.Ezookiel wrote:I didn't like the cheap look of the plastic, but I didn't think outside the square enough. I should have had them painted BLACK. Solves the cheap black plastic look, still gives weather protection from sunfade etc. but still has that stand out look.
This is not legal advice.
Great idea, especially as there are some parts where there are small amounts of the red paint on the grill, so painting the grill black might work quite well.chimpboy wrote:Is the grill part painted? If it's not, it might look a bit standout in black. Just enough to be subtle. You could easily do that yourself.
This is the underside of the bonnet showing the cuts (it's not all rusty, it's the lights I was using to light under the bonnet in the garage on a grey rainy day)
And this is the end result of the paint job.
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RockyF70 wrote:They definately look better red. Now hook up some LED's inside the grille
Now that would look cool, but then the red hot glow of an overheating engine should probably suffice to give it that nice orange glow from within.
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