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Megasquirt?

Tech Talk for Rover owners.

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Megasquirt?

Post by RUFF »

Yes i know the subject is up in General but i wanted to ask here about a specific vehicle. And only get answers from those owners.

I want to hear from anyone who has it fitted to a stock rangie or disco with a 3.9. Not a modded hypo engine.

Did you get better performance?
And mostly did you get better economy?
How Reliable is it? (wouldnt take much to be more reliable than the rover EFI)

Also has anyone actually come up with a complete finished kit to suit this engine. I dont have the time or patiance to build one.
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Post by RangingRover »

To add to this, anyone know of a group buy going on megasquirts? I'm looking for 2, one for my rangie and one for my other car....
84 Rangie, 3 inch spring lift, 2 inch body, Megasquirted 4.6, R380, rear Maxi, 34x11.5 JT2s. Simex FM installed.
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Post by PSI250 »

Although not a 3.9, my mate has MS'ed a stocko 3.5, been running for 2.5 years no probs, power definately up and good economy for a rover.

The only dealings i've had with MS have been on strokers.
We've recently changed from an early analoge motec injected 4.2 to megasquirt and the driveability (smoother and easier to start) and power are noticably up (even though it had aftermarket inj to start with.)

In the process of MS'ing a 4.7 that was running std rover ecu so we should notice a fair bit of change there!!

Basically anyone i've spoken to about MS and rover engines says its a must do thing!
RangingRover wrote:To add to this, anyone know of a group buy going on megasquirts? I'm looking for 2, one for my rangie and one for my other car....
I recently got 2 unassembled units delivered to my door (including insurance) for $415AUD.

I guess you could check MS forums to see if anyone in Aust would be interested in a group buy.
'86 Hiline, 3.9L, R380, Q78's, F&R Maxi's, Warn 8274
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Post by RUFF »

PSI250 wrote:Basically anyone i've spoken to about MS and rover engines says its a must do thing!
This is what gets me. Every Rover owner knows this but none of them have the time to build complete plug in kits and sell them. The first to do it will sell every one they build.
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Post by PSI250 »

RUFF wrote:This is what gets me. Every Rover owner knows this but none of them have the time to build complete plug in kits and sell them. The first to do it will sell every one they build.
my mate who got me onto MS was thinking about doing it, he may still, just too busy at the moment.

THe thing is it isn;t that hard, you can buy assembled MS units,
then you just need -
Air intake temp sensor (VN onwards Commo)
Cooland temp sensor (VN + again) same thread as rover so screws straight in)
o2 sensor (i used ford ea onwards 3 wire heated sensor)
Vacuum hose for the onboard map sensor
3" pipe to replace the AFM
and the ability to tune it or access to someone who does.

Image


Then just the time to wire it in, you can utilise the existing wiring. You can use some of the AFM wiring for air intake temp sensor etc.

Theres lots of sites out there with info/documentation on MS installs.
'86 Hiline, 3.9L, R380, Q78's, F&R Maxi's, Warn 8274
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Post by PSI250 »

theres also this thread here for more info -
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic ... megasquirt
'86 Hiline, 3.9L, R380, Q78's, F&R Maxi's, Warn 8274
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Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:12 pm

Post by disco95 »

Now my 3.9's one of the most reliable engines I've owned. A little more power would be good,and any increase in economy's always welcome.
Is the megasquirt THAT good that I should dick around with a system that NEVER takes more than a 2 second turn of the key to start?
My motor's done 222 000 kms, head gaskets will be done this year, and a full rebuild may be on the cards at the same time. perhaps if i go that route I'll do the MS conversion.
BUT.....otherwise are the benefits really great enough?
Sean
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Post by pugwash »

hi guys can i suggest you get yourselves over the LR4x4 tech section. the link to the index is HERE

you want to look under the Engines Diesel/Petrol/Gas section and then look at the top 4 links where you will find MS stuff coming out of your ears!

also there are a couple of chaps in the UK who sell pre-assembled MS kits direct to market- if a few of you bunched together you could probably get them at a very reasonable cost pre-assembled.

if anyone is interested then i can supply the details of the chap who has supplied a number of kits to me.
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Post by Scott Lloyd »

I do not log on very often but i have a 3.5 in a hybrid that i am currently getting up and runnuing on carbies but will be changing over to injection at some point. I would be interested in a group MS purchase if it happens. Please contact me on my email rangie05@pacific.net.au if you want to do it. Ta.
Landrover, the leader in 4WD innovation. The choice of more militaries than any other 4WD. The best bloody 4WD by far!
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Post by Loanrangie »

I have the pinout diagram for anyone wanting to make an MS that will plug straight in place of the lucas ecu, you just need a dead lucarse ecu for the case.
Saddle up tonto, its the not so loanrangie! . 98 TDI DISCO lightly modded with more to come.
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ECU pinout

Post by ytt105 »

I've previously put a 3.5 Rangie onto MS, and I'm about to do my 3.9.
However, the 3.5 had a 35 pin ECU and the 3.9 has 40 pins.
If you have a pinout for the 40 pin ECU I would be most appreciative.
I'd also like the corresponding 40 pin ECU plug if anyone has one they don't need?
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Re: ECU pinout

Post by Loanrangie »

ytt105 wrote:I've previously put a 3.5 Rangie onto MS, and I'm about to do my 3.9.
However, the 3.5 had a 35 pin ECU and the 3.9 has 40 pins.
If you have a pinout for the 40 pin ECU I would be most appreciative.
I'd also like the corresponding 40 pin ECU plug if anyone has one they don't need?
Alas the one i have is for the flapper lucas ecu.
Saddle up tonto, its the not so loanrangie! . 98 TDI DISCO lightly modded with more to come.
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Post by Rotazuk »

I have installed a ms on a standard rangie 3.9 . Was easy enough to do as you do not have to mess with the timing , but you will eventually :lol:

I had not finished tuning it yet but had matched fuel economy , had better low down go but was lacking a bit top end . This was only tuned one afternoon and one trip around the block . It needed a bit more work to get the best out of it .

Alas I had to put the ms unit into another vehicle so the rover waits for its return . I got a plug from a rover sedan ecu and wired up a jumper harness so I could swap from one to the other . I have a wiring diagram here somewhere if anyone wants it . Also you have to put a relay in to make the a/c work , earth in and positive out ( or the otherway around , can't remember now ) .

Cheers
Chris
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Location: Canberra Australia

Post by ytt105 »

I would love a copy of the wiring for the 3.9. I've done a 3.5 but the 40 pin plug is being a bit of a problem at the moment.
I may have to cut the original wiring and put piggy back plugs on it.
By the way how did you handle the 4 wire idle air valve?
My 3.5 had the 2 wire valve which was independant of MS. I'm thinking I may leave the Lucas computer to handle it.
Any help would be most appreciated.
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Post by Rotazuk »

pm me with an e-mail addy to send them through . Can't see where to attach a file here .
Cheers
Chris
Ps tried the one listed here and it does not work .
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Post by RangingRover »

Thinking more and more about the details of megasquirt.... I want to use spark control, but I'm not really keen on trying to find somewhere to put coil packs, and need the distributor to remain in part anyway as it drives the oil pump... Anyone had interesting solutions/ideas? It occurs to me that with a locked advance plate, you only have a set window of timing adjustment, which is equal to the length of time the rotor button is passing a given plug lead. Also would be somewhat hit and miss trying to set it to trigger near the tail of that period (at idle) to allow for more advance when pulling higher revs. I was thinking of getting the dizzy regraphed to an approximate, but known curve (ie make sure I get the advance graph printed for my reference), and then using megasuirt to make finer adjustments to it?
84 Rangie, 3 inch spring lift, 2 inch body, Megasquirted 4.6, R380, rear Maxi, 34x11.5 JT2s. Simex FM installed.
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Post by cloughy »

RangingRover wrote:It occurs to me that with a locked advance plate, you only have a set window of timing adjustment, which is equal to the length of time the rotor button is passing a given plug lead.
Yea, but thats the same as any method of timing, remember when you advance under vacuum you only move the pick up or points and when fully programmable it does the same
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Post by Euan »

Ive had a buick hei distributor run by megasquirt for about 6 months. Its been great no more dicking around with vac diaphrams or advance springs. A bit of effort but well worth it.
Last edited by Euan on Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by F'n_Rover »

RangingRover wrote:Thinking more and more about the details of megasquirt.... I want to use spark control, but I'm not really keen on trying to find somewhere to put coil packs, and need the distributor to remain in part anyway as it drives the oil pump... Anyone had interesting solutions/ideas? It occurs to me that with a locked advance plate, you only have a set window of timing adjustment, which is equal to the length of time the rotor button is passing a given plug lead. Also would be somewhat hit and miss trying to set it to trigger near the tail of that period (at idle) to allow for more advance when pulling higher revs. I was thinking of getting the dizzy regraphed to an approximate, but known curve (ie make sure I get the advance graph printed for my reference), and then using megasuirt to make finer adjustments to it?
You could always go "coil on plug" - don't have to worry about coilpack location. I've seen COP's for around $40 each at the wreckers (various brands) MS will drive them in wasted spark mode (only four outputs neded then) Also COP = no spark plug leads :cool: a real neat install.
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Post by Rotazuk »

I have a nissan motor in my suzuki offroader and it has coil on plugs . I am megasquirting it to get rid of the coil on plugs . they do not like vibration and I break one about every three months , it only gets out about once a month .

So if you do don't use nissan ones .

Chris
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Post by RangingRover »

Yea, but thats the same as any method of timing, remember when you advance under vacuum you only move the pick up or points and when fully programmable it does the same
Bah... now I feel really stupid. Excellent point. Now all i need to find is someone selling unassembled kits at the price I know they can be had for....
84 Rangie, 3 inch spring lift, 2 inch body, Megasquirted 4.6, R380, rear Maxi, 34x11.5 JT2s. Simex FM installed.
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Post by cloughy »

RangingRover wrote:
Yea, but thats the same as any method of timing, remember when you advance under vacuum you only move the pick up or points and when fully programmable it does the same
Bah... now I feel really stupid. Excellent point. Now all i need to find is someone selling unassembled kits at the price I know they can be had for....
:D
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Post by Ralf the RR »

RangingRover wrote:
Now all i need to find is someone selling unassembled kits at the price I know they can be had for....
Jaycar had a kit a few years ago.
It basically allowed 3 set points to provide a very basic "curve".
Essentially you lock your dizzy to full advance, and the box then retards the spark accordingly.

There are a few commercial boxes available.
Can't remember the brands, but they a few hundred dollars each.
Harry

79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.

Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
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Post by F'n_Rover »

Ralf the RR wrote:
RangingRover wrote:
Now all i need to find is someone selling unassembled kits at the price I know they can be had for....
Jaycar had a kit a few years ago.
It basically allowed 3 set points to provide a very basic "curve".
Essentially you lock your dizzy to full advance, and the box then retards the spark accordingly.

There are a few commercial boxes available.
Can't remember the brands, but they a few hundred dollars each.
The Jaycar (silicone chip) kit is the biggest piece of crap ever, bought one a few years ago. Read the instructions and threw it in the bin - Me thinks it was designed by muppets. Poorley designed backyard rubbish, like most of the magazine kits.

Even if it was still good - you're still left with a dizzy and the limited advance range they can provide.

The other aftermarket units may be good, but for the price you can buy ttwo (or more) fully assembled megasquirts - and end up with both fuel and spark control.
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Post by Euan »

Ive got 0' while cranking and can go over 45' at high rpm, no worries.
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Post by RaginRover »

So ..... at this stage of the game I have blown up the ECU in my car and I need anothery - looks like it is going to cost $330 for a new one.

I have bought the EDIS brain box from the states a while back .....

Am I going to be able to put one together with fuel and spark and LPG for around $330 - $350 ???

I would love to fit coil packs and just leave the dizzy there for decoration :)

Anyone got a kit that will control my current mess ??

Tom
"It was just an ordinary day, and you saw them. There were guys in their Porsches, "Look at me in my Porsche, ha ha!" and they were overtaken by a van. Driven by a girl!"
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Post by RangingRover »

My head hurts.

Looking at the kits from Glens Garage, trying to work out what I need.

I want two kits, one for the rangie, and one for my alfa.

The rangie I want to have spark control, fuel (duh!), knock sensors, and maybe dual oxy sensors.

The alfa needs fuel, spark, knock sensor, boost control and maybe coil-on-plug, among some other stuff.

Obviously I need to run Megasquirt'n'Spark, but where I'm getting confused is that on GlensGarage, they have a 'daughter board' for Squirt'n'Spark, which is supposed to add all the hardware required for some of the features - Do I actually need this, or can I get away with putting together my own circuits for the features I want? It seems to show the required components and circuit diagram on the OLD squirt'n'spark-extra site, but the updated version is pretty useless....

The other thing I can't work out is whether version 3.0 is really any better than 2.2? Other than the direct coil driver, I can't see any major gains (well not $50USD of gain, anyway.) With 2.2, I guess you just run an output wire from Megasquirt to your existing ignition module, but with version 3 megasquirt is its own module?

Also, do the unassembled kits come with a plug which you wire the engine loom into, and which then plugs into the megasquirt? I'm assuming yes, but you know who that makes an ass out of.

Help would be appreciated, getting twitchy to get rid of the lucas injection and get this 4.6 really going properly, you can feel the steps in the lucas programming every time you put the foot down.
84 Rangie, 3 inch spring lift, 2 inch body, Megasquirted 4.6, R380, rear Maxi, 34x11.5 JT2s. Simex FM installed.
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Post by F'n_Rover »

RangingRover wrote:My head hurts.

Looking at the kits from Glens Garage, trying to work out what I need.

I want two kits, one for the rangie, and one for my alfa.

The rangie I want to have spark control, fuel (duh!), knock sensors, and maybe dual oxy sensors.

The alfa needs fuel, spark, knock sensor, boost control and maybe coil-on-plug, among some other stuff.

Obviously I need to run Megasquirt'n'Spark, but where I'm getting confused is that on GlensGarage, they have a 'daughter board' for Squirt'n'Spark, which is supposed to add all the hardware required for some of the features - Do I actually need this, or can I get away with putting together my own circuits for the features I want? It seems to show the required components and circuit diagram on the OLD squirt'n'spark-extra site, but the updated version is pretty useless....

The other thing I can't work out is whether version 3.0 is really any better than 2.2? Other than the direct coil driver, I can't see any major gains (well not $50USD of gain, anyway.) With 2.2, I guess you just run an output wire from Megasquirt to your existing ignition module, but with version 3 megasquirt is its own module?

Also, do the unassembled kits come with a plug which you wire the engine loom into, and which then plugs into the megasquirt? I'm assuming yes, but you know who that makes an ass out of.

Help would be appreciated, getting twitchy to get rid of the lucas injection and get this 4.6 really going properly, you can feel the steps in the lucas programming every time you put the foot down.
Ok,
daughter boards = not needed any more, they have since come up with ms extra code. This extra code version is for the first megasquirt 2.2. Only an option if you already have this early MS hardware or are too tight to buy the latest megasquit version. MS 3.0 has all this built in.

3.0 is better in a lot of ways - higher spec / faster processor + coil pack / dizzy support without board mods. They have also sorted out problems that caused the injector drivers to burn out, pretty much a bug free and robust circuit

2.2 extra code version with board mods will do more than 3.0, but you have to mod the board and really know what you want and what you are doing. (ie: mega mucking around) 3.0 will eventually catch up with the features (if not allready :? )

Knock sensor - IMO wouldn't worry about it, trust your ear - more reliable
Don't think there has been much success with them

Also - the only bad thing about the MS is the stupid loom plug - wiring a the db37 just sucks. Get the relay board, worth the extra $$

Fork out for a wide band oxy sensor - the extra $200 will make tuning easy and almost foolproof.

Anyway thats my .02
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Post by Rotazuk »

I disagree with the earlier post , right idea wrong components . I am no MS expert but will list what I believe to be the case .

There are two boards around a v2.2 and v3.0 . This just refers to the board and either one can have a MS 1 or MS 2 cpu on them .

So this gives you four different options v2.2 board and ms 1 chip or v3.0 board and ms 1 chip etc , etc .

Both my megasquirts are v3.0 boards with ms 1 chips so I could seem a little biased here but ....

Boards . I went with a v3.0 as it seems much easier to add different options and it includes one coil driver , all i needed for the rover as I would still fire the dissy . To make any changes to a v2.2 board always seemed much more involved when most of the time on the v3.0 it was just moving a few jumpers .

Cpu's . I have only had ms1 chips , at the stage I got them the ms 2 was a few $$ and could not do as much as a ms 1 chip . The one advantage the ms 2 would have is the better processor and bigger tables I guess . As stated above the extra code is for the ms 1 chip only . They are working on one for the ms2 but not sure if/when it will be out .

I initially got one for my rover so I could run dual fuel and spark tables for petrol and lpg . one set for petrol and the other change the spark for lpg and give no fuel , thus no fuel cut off valves etc required . Unfortunatly the ecu has been robbed to run a suzuki engine for a while , standard 4 cyl fuel and ign . But a month or so ago I blew up the ecu in my nissan powered ofroader , it has a 4cyl coil on plug setup . So I got another ms to run that and only just got it going yesterday . It is running wasted spark as I wanted to ditch the cop as they do not like vibration and i kill one every few months , not good . It is using the cam sensor to trigger the wasted spark etc and seems like it will be ok , a few issues to sort out . It could be wired for 4 cop , the ms1 chip can run up to 6 ignition events , so cop for 6 cyl or wasted spark for v12 etc .

I will look at the knock sensor option when I put a turbo in the nissan engine but it looks like a bit of a mission and from F'n_rover's comments seems it may not be worth it .

Also I only have a narrow band oxy sensors , and tuned it ok . I imagine it would be great with the wide band ones but the reason I went with the megasquirt in the first place was cost ( and the enjoyment for getting it going yourselft too) . Thats why I did not get the ms2 chips . MS2 chips and wideband sensors etc you would be well over $600 by the time its in . I have a single heated oxy sensor in the rover and due to the headers it is under the t/case . Everyone said that far away would be fine so long as its heated ( 3+ wire oxt sensor ) . single wire ones are not heated . they need to be warm to work .

All my installations do not have relay boards , my rover was efi so had all the relays there , same with the nissan , was already efi so had them . there are a few other bits on the boards but I did not see it was worth it . For a new install it would be . For the suzuki I went to teh wrecker and picked up a fuse box from a starlet , has all the fuses and relays you need for $5 and is small .

For your two requirements I do not see anything a ms 1 chip with the extra code can't do . Which ever you chose I would say get both the same , you will become more familiar with it . Jumping between two could be frustrating .

My recomendation . As I said above I am biased but would say get a v3.0 board and ms1 chips for both cars , get them from a dist like glens garage etc ( I have not used him but the others etc ) for one off's , the parts are clearly labeled and set to go . I did not think it was worth the hassle to run around and get all the other component bits to make the kit and then just by the board and cpu ( this is how it was done before the distributors made complete kits ) . Good luck .

Looking forward to getting my ecu back in the rover , as I need it to limit advance for the supercharger :twisted:

Cheers

Chris
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Post by Uklandyandy »

Hi Ruff,

I am working on an MS install at present for my 3.9efi 90. I'm undertaking the project in 2 stages. Firstly I'm converting to EDIS using a MegaJolt Lite Jr controller for ignition control under MAP. Once this is sorted I'll go to Megasquirt-n-spark using a V3 pcb as it's a simple mod to the i/p & o/p stages to drive the PIP & SAW signals to the EDIS module. If you look on the LR4x4 link below you'll see where I'm up to. The MS Extra site is well worth the read as it has all the latest info and is quite well laid out compared to the 'normal' site. There is also a dedicated forum forum that would be worth lurking on also. Hope this helps.

BTW, if the metalwork all fits OK I may get a few sets lasered & bent up to make things easier for other owners wanting to do the same.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=10538
http://picasso.org/mjlj/
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/manual/MS_Ext ... _Index.htm

Cheers,
Andy
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