competition vehicle " roadworthyness " & rollc

[Pigroota]

It seems that all competition organisers want our vehicles to be road registered , & a lot of them seem to be seeking CCDA sanctioning ( hence the need for rollcages ).
I know for a fact that the NSW RTA WILL NOT allow a 6 point rollcage to be legally fitted to a road registered vehicle .... 4 posters will be OK but they will not allow a rollcage to protrude above or forward of the front seats.
YES it seems that the CCDA all want us to have illegally modified vehicles .
I think that this will have to be something that will need looking into by event organisers ... can understand them wanting to use the fact that the vehicle is road registered as a short cut to cover them with the fact that the vehicle must be safe etc ... as its been "scrutineered " by an authorised vehicle inspector.

[blkmav]

Shhhhhh don't talk about the war

[Pigroota]

Shhhhhh don't talk about the war

so if we all shut up about it will it just go away will it ???

[blkmav]

Shhhhhh don't talk about the war

so if we all shut up about it will it just go away will it ???

Only until a competitor is critically injured

[krimnl]

put a bolt in front section for competition if your not happy fitting a permanent 6 point.
it is a saftey issue and a 4b is very heavy and can crush the a pillars easily if not protected

[thunder]

has this RTA rule been in for a while?

I have a 4 point cage in my ute ,2004 gu ute and this was all passed before it was 1st regeod..does this mean it is illegal.????

i went to a lot of trouble to make sure it was all ok with the engineer before it was passed and regeod.

I think all the harder events should have roll cages.
but if it makes the cars illegal on the road.then what is the answer.?

[XTREME MMM]

NSW and for that mater in the near future Qld will not allow fixed "A" pillar protection. But Xtreme & CCDA allow removable "A" section bar work, so what seems to be the trouble. Safety is the most important item to me when I set out my vehicle rules.

By having vehicles registered, means that we can use public roads for transport between stages if needed.

I would be more concerned about the rest of your vehicle then just the roll cage.

Over the years I have seen a lot of NSW 4wd's, even with your treasured "Engineers Certificate" that should not be on the road. Take for example Tuff Truck (great event) vehicles have to be road legal, tell be how do you get a vehicle on the road in NSW with 44" tyres, hydraulic steering and rear steer, 100mm body lifts and 6"+ suspension ?????????????? All these vehicles may be safe, but are they really road legal. I know that it would not be allowed in Queensland.

Being honest the vehicles (regardless of where they come from) that compete in my ARBXWC are all safe but under Queensland Transport rules they would ALL be classed as illegal, due to:- size of tyres and suspension height (more then a third of bump stop height). Xtreme rules state that the vehicle has to be road registered, there is no talk of road legal.

My last comments are:- lets not try to change the tough safety rules that Xtreme (would not happen) & CCDA are using for your safety. Lets build vehicle that comply and hopefully road legal in your state.

Cheers
David

[ludacris]

It seems that all competition organisers want our vehicles to be road registered , & a lot of them seem to be seeking CCDA sanctioning ( hence the need for rollcages ).
I know for a fact that the NSW RTA WILL NOT allow a 6 point rollcage to be legally fitted to a road registered vehicle .... 4 posters will be OK but they will not allow a rollcage to protrude above or forward of the front seats.
YES it seems that the CCDA all want us to have illegally modified vehicles .
I think that this will have to be something that will need looking into by event organisers ... can understand them wanting to use the fact that the vehicle is road registered as a short cut to cover them with the fact that the vehicle must be safe etc ... as its been "scrutineered " by an authorised vehicle inspector.

I dont think that you are complaining about having roll over protection. What are you actually saying. Our race trucks should be allowed to run in the events whether they are registered or not. There are events that are allowing unregistered vehicles to run in them such as Queensland winch challenge, Cliffhanger and I guess there will be more in the future.

LudaCris

[Pigroota]

thanks Ludacris
thats exactly what i was getting at ..... why have road registerered vehicles at all , if those road registered vehicles are deemed to be illegal !!
Fair enough i can understand it for some of the events that are using public roads for transport stages , but in reality those sorts of events are only a minority of the competitions that are around ... ie : NSW , TUFF TRUCK , NISSAN TRIALS , WOODPECKER, WILLOWGLEN are all held on privat lands & all require the competing vehicles to be road registered

[krimnl]

thanks Ludacris
thats exactly what i was getting at ..... why have road registerered vehicles at all , if those road registered vehicles are deemed to be illegal !!
Fair enough i can understand it for some of the events that are using public roads for transport stages , but in reality those sorts of events are only a minority of the competitions that are around ... ie : NSW , TUFF TRUCK , NISSAN TRIALS , WOODPECKER, WILLOWGLEN are all held on privat lands & all require the competing vehicles to be road registered

you might even find that they still need to be registered for use on private land. not 100% on this but i remember reading it somewhere and it had to do with insurance ( as always) and council permits

[Ruffy]

you might even find that they still need to be registered for use on private land. not 100% on this but i remember reading it somewhere and it had to do with insurance ( as always) and council permits

From my experiences the issue here is the personal accident insurance. If the vehicle is registerd the the TAC insurance is relevant no matter where you drive. If the vehicle is not registered then it is up to the event organiser to provide some form of PAI or they could find themselves with a very expensive lawsuit on there hands.
like i said, that's what my interpretation of what i found from organising other events.
Cheers Dan.

[pigletracing]

safer the better,the more leagle the better,,we all love the
comp scene,,& to do so we have complied by there rules,,
my rig is fully enginered & certified,cost a lot of money &
took alot of time,,& there were a lot of mods we legaly
could not do as well(so they had to be left off) how legal
is this paperwork,,I still kringe every time the boys in blue
go by,& now only trailer it oround,,is there somthing else we
can do?? I have been watching PARIS/DAKAR is there some
sort of race rego,that can go on,so highly modified comp rigs
& bugies can legaly drive on allicated roads & private propertys
whitch each event is designated,,are we still covered in an event
if death or ingery occurs at presant,,or is it that after inspection
by CSI the rig is deemed ilegal & no deth or liability is covered..
I love the sport. But want to make sure my family & navs family
are covered just in case..WHAT TO DO !!!!!!!!!!!

[Britswed]

Hey Piglett

Yes its called CAMS look at all the rally cars 6 point cages and all legal,when a eveent is on the car is covered to drive on the road for the duration of the event (Ie OBC) not sure how it would work with Tuff Truck type trucks but winch challenge trucks wouldnt be a problem.

As dave said CCDA & His events allow removable A Pillar bars so pretty much covers it. I have been pulled over in my truck for RBT ect and the cops have never had a problem with it.Yes its enginered for suspension work ect.

Mal

safer the better,the more leagle the better,,we all love the
comp scene,,& to do so we have complied by there rules,,
my rig is fully enginered & certified,cost a lot of money &
took alot of time,,& there were a lot of mods we legaly
could not do as well(so they had to be left off) how legal
is this paperwork,,I still kringe every time the boys in blue
go by,& now only trailer it oround,,is there somthing else we
can do?? I have been watching PARIS/DAKAR is there some
sort of race rego,that can go on,so highly modified comp rigs
& bugies can legaly drive on allicated roads & private propertys
whitch each event is designated,,are we still covered in an event
if death or ingery occurs at presant,,or is it that after inspection
by CSI the rig is deemed ilegal & no deth or liability is covered..
I love the sport. But want to make sure my family & navs family
are covered just in case..WHAT TO DO !!!!!!!!!!!

[BIG ZOOK]

i had to cut mine and put it in as removable bolt system like you guys said. i take it out for road and put it in for off road so to speak

[XTREME MMM]

Nice rig and you are a lot more protected then standard, but the vehicle would not comply with Xtreme (or CCDA for that mater) competition rules for a cage or seat belt installation.

With that vehicle you have put your safety first, which is the correct thing to do. And as you say you can legally use it on the road when you remove the "A" section. Great.

If their is anyone else building a cage why not try to make (Toyota SWB or Jeep) the "A" pillar bar work the windscreen frame next time, then you could leave it in.

Cheers
David

[sierrajim]

Just spoke with TAC and asked if they would cover a claim on a vehicle accident on private property, timed event (race), registered vehicle, licensed driver.

They said they would "consider" a claim on a Victorian registered vehicle here in Victoria. If it was an interstate registered vehicle it may be a different story.

This aside, what exactly does the event insurance cover? Does event insurance not cover personal injury in the case of an accident?

[Ruffy]

Just spoke with TAC and asked if they would cover a claim on a vehicle accident on private property, timed event (race), registered vehicle, licensed driver.

They said they would "consider" a claim on a Victorian registered vehicle here in Victoria. If it was an interstate registered vehicle it may be a different story.

This aside, what exactly does the event insurance cover? Does event insurance not cover personal injury in the case of an accident?

I expect that different events will have a different answer but i would presume not. The expense involved in PAI for such events wouldn't be something that covered within the entries fees we pay. I DONOT speak for them but i have always ran Navrun events under the presumption that they provide no PAI cover what so ever and have my own cover for this type of event. I would strongly suggest that if someone is under the presumption that they do have PAI cover at an event that they look into immediately.
I don't see it as the organisers responsibility to provide PAI for any event.
If you want financial protection or assistance for you and your family then you need to secure a policy before you compete.
Expect to pay a few hundred dollars annualy for decent cover.
The insurance cover provided by event organisers would be a third party property and liability policy. Meaning that the organisers themselves have cover against somebody trying to litigate for damage to the property or themselves caused by actions of the event.
If you read the policy for the TAC i think you will find that if your car is registered then you should be covered for PAI. The level of cover is not fantastic but it is there. I don't think they can discriminate against the location the accident takes place as you are legally allowed to drive your vehicle on any property with the owners permission. As for being involved in a competition i think the wording is something like "If the occupants are part of a designated race on a designated race track...."
So if you race your RX7 at sandown you're not covered.
"Trials, timed or otherwise, are deemed to be an acceptable cause for claim"
If you are competing in a trial then it's ok.
GREY AREA..
I'll do some surfing and see if i can find it again..
But ultimately... Go out and get yourslef your own PAI!!!!!!!!!

[evo wagon]

this is a very interesting thread.

this goes to xtreme mmm i am about to build a comp gq for your comp and i was curious to to know about the removable a pillar section could you please pass me more info on this if possible

[XTREME MMM]

this is a very interesting thread.

this goes to xtreme mmm i am about to build a comp gq for your comp and i was curious to to know about the removable a pillar section could you please pass me more info on this if possible

Hi, contact me direct or if your close call in and see me. Contact details and address on my web site if you do not already know.

Cheers
David

[bru21]

I am not surprised this rule is progressing. Just look at some of the cages being built. you can put a clenched fist between the pillar and the tube. I have seen guy with their helmets resting permanently on the bar work too.

Like I am taking my a pillar bars out then what will hold the dash??? the amp on the roof??? All the wiring??, the computer???

Mine is fitted and passed, It will stay.

why not build exo's for street (non MMM trucks) the obc will allow them without an internal (fact I rang the head scrutineer last year) and they are also 100% street legal (until bodge arse exo's ruin that for us too).

4x4 sport in aussie is 50% - (4x4 and prep / build) and 50% - dot shite)

[AFeral]

Event organisers are asking for the cars to be road registered. So that in the event of an accident, the registration insurance can be claimed against. Correct me if i'm wrong but would'nt the insurances be nul and void if the 4x4 had, non engineered modifcations.

[Ruffy]

Event organisers are asking for the cars to be road registered. So that in the event of an accident, the registration insurance can be claimed against. Correct me if i'm wrong but would'nt the insurances be nul and void if the 4x4 had, non engineered modifcations.

This is the beauty of the insurance supplied by the TAC.. The whole reason for this insurance being introduced was to save the governments ass when someone tries to sue them for a dodgy road causing an accident. Because of this the insurance must remain valid for ANY vehicle that is registered. If the insurance became void due to mods then some smart dick would carry out litigation against the police (government) for not enforcing the rules and allowing them on the roads in an 'illegal' vehicle. The only differing factor are the fines/charges you'll get slapped with, wether they be for unR/W vehicle, dangerous driving, speeding, etc.
Cheers Dan

[Ossie]

Event organisers are asking for the cars to be road registered. So that in the event of an accident, the registration insurance can be claimed against. Correct me if i'm wrong but would'nt the insurances be nul and void if the 4x4 had, non engineered modifcations.

This is the beauty of the insurance supplied by the TAC.. The whole reason for this insurance being introduced was to save the governments ass when someone tries to sue them for a dodgy road causing an accident. Because of this the insurance must remain valid for ANY vehicle that is registered. If the insurance became void due to mods then some smart dick would carry out litigation against the police (government) for not enforcing the rules and allowing them on the roads in an 'illegal' vehicle. The only differing factor are the fines/charges you'll get slapped with, wether they be for unR/W vehicle, dangerous driving, speeding, etc.
Cheers Dan

Under section 41 of the TYransport Accident Act 1986 it states the following.

"The Commission is not liable to pay compensation in accordance with this Act in respect of a person who is injured or dies as a result of a transport accident involving a motor vehicle or motor vehicles that are taking part in, or in a test in preparation for, an organized motor vehicle race or a speed trial if the person is—

(a) the driver of, or a passenger in, such a motor vehicle; or
(b) a spectator at the race, trial or test; or
(c) an official or organizer of the race, trial or test; or
(d) assisting in any way in the holding of the race, trial or test; or
(e) assisting competitors in the race, trial or test"

Though section 41 1(a) does allow for some exeptions under the Road Safety Act, but these can only be granted by the Minister responsible.

For the Ateco, it clearly states TAC DOES NOT appply for the event.

Jason

[jav]

and the can of worms has been opened

[Ruffy]

Event organisers are asking for the cars to be road registered. So that in the event of an accident, the registration insurance can be claimed against. Correct me if i'm wrong but would'nt the insurances be nul and void if the 4x4 had, non engineered modifcations.

This is the beauty of the insurance supplied by the TAC.. The whole reason for this insurance being introduced was to save the governments ass when someone tries to sue them for a dodgy road causing an accident. Because of this the insurance must remain valid for ANY vehicle that is registered. If the insurance became void due to mods then some smart dick would carry out litigation against the police (government) for not enforcing the rules and allowing them on the roads in an 'illegal' vehicle. The only differing factor are the fines/charges you'll get slapped with, wether they be for unR/W vehicle, dangerous driving, speeding, etc.
Cheers Dan

Under section 41 of the TYransport Accident Act 1986 it states tghe following.

"The Commission is not liable to pay compensation in accordance with this Act in respect of a person who is injured or dies as a result of a transport accident involving a motor vehicle or motor vehicles that are taking part in, or in a test in preparation for, an organized motor vehicle race or a speed trial if the person is—

(a) the driver of, or a passenger in, such a motor vehicle; or
(b) a spectator at the race, trial or test; or
(c) an official or organizer of the race, trial or test; or
(d) assisting in any way in the holding of the race, trial or test; or
(e) assisting competitors in the race, trial or test"

Though section 41 1(a) does allow for some exeptions under the Road Safety Act, but these can only be granted by the Minister responsible.

For the Ateco, it clearly states TAC DOES NOT appply for the event.

Jason

Thanks Jason, that's the bit i was refering to earlier. I knew it had a reference to race or speed event or something similar. There's more on it somewhere but i'm pretty sure you're covered in a trial event, ie navruns etc where it's not timed. I wasn't aware that the ATECO stated TAC does not apply but it's good that they do tell you. As i said earlier.. Get your own PAI!!

I guess the more important thing i would like to know is are officials covered by PAI under CCDA???

Ohhhhhhhhhhh too much to look into..

[grimbo]

which is why when we used to do the Rhino Trophy it was never a speed event or an event that required timing to be a deciding factor. It was purely a navigational event that people traveled around in a vehicle. We did have one accident that TAC was involved in with regards to insurance and the relevant vehicles where covered

[pigletracing]

so basicly do we pay to compete at our own risk ???
at the end ef the day who is covered,,us or the organisers,
spectators or mabee non of the above ???
if the show is being put on at our own risk,,do the entry
fees get cheaper??

[Johnny Trackabout]

so basicly do we pay to compete at our own risk ???
at the end ef the day who is covered,,us or the organisers,
spectators or mabee non of the above ???
if the show is being put on at our own risk,,do the entry
fees get cheaper??

GOOD POINT PIGLET !!!

[Tojo]

and the can of worms has been opened

??? i think you will find that the can of worms has been opened for years. Every now and then someone looks into it and asks a few questions and every time there is never a definitive answer.

[Kat 74]

Good luck finding PAI that will cover you competing in motor events. My hubby competes and works for himself. Everytime we tried to get personal insurance to cover us if the worst happens just mentioning that he competed in off road 4x4 events meant the insurer didn't want to know anymore and we couldn't get insurance.

This is a can of worms and I don't think there are too many easy anwers. Will be following this thread with interest though.