WHICH TURBO??????

Post by **MUSS** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:31 pm

OK now that ive decided to get a turbo which wood be the best kit outta the DENCO/SHWITZER TURBO KIT or the GARRET TURBO KIT?????

Post by **bogged** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:18 pm

JAKE wrote:OK now that ive decided to get a turbo which wood be the best kit outta the DENCO/SHWITZER TURBO KIT or the GARRET TURBO KIT?????

I have the Denco, and have a look at one if you can, The pipe out of the turbo for the exhaust goes at a serious right angle, and cant be good.

I looked at a DTS one on weekend at the club day, and its right down low out of the way. Very good design, little more thought went into it.

So, I suppose Im saying Im happy with mine, but lookin now if i was doing it tomorrow, Id bo a supercharger. No overheating issues to boot.

Go with DTS.

Post by **MUSS** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:26 pm

ok bogged... does dts do a high mount turbo kit for a toyota 3b donk?? how much is the system???i dont want a low mount as it is always bloody hot up here and i wood have to wait for agers to cross any 1inch puddle with out worryin bout the low mount turbo i need to hear the pros and cons of the dts system.... um... and as my thred is titled TURBOS i have no intention on even lookin at a super charger as i have already talked to CAPA and they wood have to custom build a system which will cost mega $$$$$$ thats why... plus i can pic up a complete brand new turbo system form either garret or denco for under $2600 supplied :cool:

Post by **bogged** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:45 pm

JAKE wrote:ok bogged... does dts do a high mount turbo kit for a toyota 3b donk?? how much is the system???i dont want a low mount as it is always bloody hot up here and i wood have to wait for agers to cross any 1inch puddle with out worryin bout the low mount turbo i need to hear the pros and cons of the dts system.. um... and as my thred is titled TURBOS i have no intention on even lookin at a super charger as i have already talked to CAPA and they wood have to custom build a system which will cost mega $$$$$$ thats why... plus i can pic up a complete brand new turbo system form either garret or denco for under $2600 supplied

The low mount ones cool better apparently, NFI on cost, call DTS. The Denco kit is mega cheap

They would need to build custom for a lux? Interesting. Chargers are far superior in lots of ways to a turbo, for one if the blower dies, you remove the belt and drive on, if a turbo dies, you start pushing... Also no heat issues.

What ever you go for you will LOVE!

YMMV

Post by **uqunder10s** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:19 pm

I can't speak in regard to the Toyota donk, but I have a Schwitzer on a GQ and a DTS on a GU, both TD42 motors.

The Schwitzer has custom wheels in it and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust with no muffler at standard boost (7psi?) whereas the DTS has a bleed valve giving about 11psi boost and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust but still has the muffler fitted.

The 2 setups have very different characteristics, the Schwitzer is whistling at idle and has a lot of go from about 800-1000rpm but runs out of puff above 3000 whereas the DTS comes in hard nearer 16-1800 rpm and pulls well to redline. The DTS is great for highway and touring work, the Schwitzer is great for offroad. I have heard that Safari's are more set for highway/towing work.

What's the point of this post? To highlight that the different turbos could well have different characteristics and you should be clear about what you want the turbo to achieve and it may influence the choice of turbo.

Post by **Singo17** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:33 pm

uqunder10s wrote:I can't speak in regard to the Toyota donk, but I have a Schwitzer on a GQ and a DTS on a GU, both TD42 motors.

The Schwitzer has custom wheels in it and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust with no muffler at standard boost (7psi?) whereas the DTS has a bleed valve giving about 11psi boost and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust but still has the muffler fitted.

The 2 setups have very different characteristics, the Schwitzer is whistling at idle and has a lot of go from about 800-1000rpm but runs out of puff above 3000 whereas the DTS comes in hard nearer 16-1800 rpm and pulls well to redline. The DTS is great for highway and touring work, the Schwitzer is great for offroad. I have heard that Safari's are more set for highway/towing work.

What's the point of this post? To highlight that the different turbos could well have different characteristics and you should be clear about what you want the turbo to achieve and it may influence the choice of turbo.

This is exactly what he is looking for thanks mate. Jake can get a pretty good deal on the Denco but he wanted a non pimped view on the difference between the two setups. I have scoured the net (not really hard bout 3 hours reading) and found mostly pimp sites.

Now the characteristics you have are they due to turbine size or turbo design.

Post by **bogged** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:58 pm

Mark that worked at ARB Sth said he was running his Denco with 20psi boost :shock:

One reason I got Denco was price, and the other reason I got my Denco, ARB sth amongst the staff there, there was a Denco, Safari, and DTS to sus out.

Mark said his was all bottom, and then DTS (nutha large white GQ) was mid range, and Safari was Mid to top.

They took me for a drive in all 3 cars, one was a customers they had just installed the turbo on!

Goto a few 4wd places and ask if they can take you for a spin in each one see if you can find all the same make and models

Website · Post by **murcod** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:04 pm

If you're worried about when the turbo reaches full boost then it's probably best to talk to a turbo specialist about what you require. Each model turbo can be bought with different exhaust and inlet housings to suit different purposes- it's the AR ratio that you need to worry about.

Just because you buy model X of brand X turbo that someone else has and is good doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one with the same inlet and exhaust set up as you need to specify what AR ratio you want too.

That's my understanding of it all from wasting lots of $$$ on my cars in the past with high flow turbos etc. Hopefully it all makes some sense!

PS: if I was buying a turbo I'd go for Garrett- they have a real good reputation. The inlaws have got a Safari kit on a 4.2 diesel GQ Patrol and that's what they've got fitted.

Post by **Singo17** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:12 pm

bogged wrote:Mark that worked at ARB Sth said he was running his Denco with 20psi boost

One reason I got Denco was price, and the other reason I got my Denco, ARB sth amongst the staff there, there was a Denco, Safari, and DTS to sus out.

Mark said his was all bottom, and then DTS (nutha large white GQ) was mid range, and Safari was Mid to top.

They took me for a drive in all 3 cars, one was a customers they had just installed the turbo on!

Goto a few 4wd places and ask if they can take you for a spin in each one see if you can find all the same make and models

Bruce you went for a drive in all three and what were the results? Which one did you like the best besides price?

Post by **Singo17** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:15 pm

murcod wrote:If you're worried about when the turbo reaches full boost then it's probably best to talk to a turbo specialist about what you require. Each model turbo can be bought with different exhaust and inlet housings to suit different purposes- it's the AR ratio that you need to worry about.

Just because you buy model X of brand X turbo that someone else has and is good doesn't necessarily mean you'll get one with the same inlet and exhaust set up as you need to specify what AR ratio you want too.

That's my understanding of it all from wasting lots of $$$ on my cars in the past with high flow turbos etc. Hopefully it all makes some sense!

PS: if I was buying a turbo I'd go for Garrett- they have a real good reputation. The inlaws have got a Safari kit on a 4.2 diesel GQ Patrol and that's what they've got fitted.

Yep got ya with the AR. But if you start talking custom inlet/exhaust housings do you start talking $ or could a kit be modded(sorry edit parts of the shelf to suit in a kit) to suit app. This will be a consideration for him as well.

Post by **bogged** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:46 pm

Singo17 wrote: Bruce you went for a drive in all three and what were the results? Which one did you like the best besides price?

It was a little hard to pick not being the driver, and not knowing the history of the cars, all had 150,000 or more on the clock, all were TD42s.

Marks did have more low down, you could feel the hit in the seat more than the safari, but once the safari was wound up, it was great.
The DTS, was not as punchy down low, but felt flatter or smoother, couldnt tell up top.

If I was buying today, I would go DTS. Just the lower location of the snail, below the exhaust mainfold would help with heat too.

The Denco Kit is Pi$$ easy to install as well.. We did a mates few months back now, just a few snapped Zaust studs slowed things down.

Price at the time was the biggest thing, the Denco comes with a 2.5 in mandral bend exhaust, which saves you $100's as well as having been cheaper than the others by a LOT!

Post by **Singo17** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:07 pm

Bruce thanks for that I am sure it will put Jake into the picture a bit more not a hell of a lot of people up here to have access to all the kits for comparo.

Post by **bj on roids** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:26 pm

Last night I put my 2H powered shorty with 35s and stock gears plus Garret turbo, weighing in at exactly 2110kilograms, against a schwitzer powered HJ75 series 2H motor wieghing in at 2350kilos and my shorty beat it by a considerable margin! :twisted:

I have had IHI turbos and other brands in the past. I think the guy with the biggest balls, the most boost and so on would win for sure!

Post by **slowhilux** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:00 pm

Murcod is right, ARs is where its at. You dont necessarily have to change the exhaust/compressor housings to change the AR ratio. It has to do with wheel size (by this i mean inducer and exducer minor AND major), which may result in the housings being machined to take larger wheels (hot change them), blade angles, amount of blades, back-cut,, whether the ex. wheel is ceramic or not(reduses lag but doesnt like much more than 1BAR (14.7psi)boost) and trims etc etc.

Garret at Chipping Norton in Sydney are FANTASTIC at building/matching turbos for your exact requirements, they have helped me out on a number of occasions with my road cars.

Phill

Website · Post by **murcod** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:23 pm

Thanks for filling in the gaps in my explanation Phill.

Singo, it could be worth ringing some turbo places and asking them for more details regarding prices etc. I know Dynamic turbos here in Adelaide are very good- I think they have dealers Australia wide???

The off the shelf kits obviously just have a certain AR ratio turbo of whatever brand that has been determined to be the best compromise to suit most applications by that particular kit manufacturer. You could always try doing a deal and just buy the manifold, inlet plumbing etc from the kit and then get the same brand/model turbo with the AR ratio you want from a turbo specialist.

Post by **Ruggers** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:47 pm

i got a garret turbo setup on my 3b its mounted down low and havent had any trouble with it going though water crossings it also has a 90 degree bend staight ot of the turbo to single muffler and out just infront of the drivers rear wheel. it gives me a low to mid range power coming in at around 1000 rpm and making full boost around 2200 depending on load on engine and taking boost all the way to the redline. but it only makes 4psi at the moment havent had the injector pump timed yet so i will turn the boost up when i get it tuned. my turbo set up also has an extenal waste gate. which im told is better than and internal one wount have a clue why but it is alot bigger than internal. i had tourble mounting it because i got a booster on my clutch master so i had to move that for the install and move the power steering resviour up and adn rerote the power steering lines away from the turbo

Post by **MUSS** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:12 pm

uqunder10s wrote:I can't speak in regard to the Toyota donk, but I have a Schwitzer on a GQ and a DTS on a GU, both TD42 motors.

The Schwitzer has custom wheels in it and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust with no muffler at standard boost (7psi?) whereas the DTS has a bleed valve giving about 11psi boost and a 3" mandrel bent exhaust but still has the muffler fitted.

The 2 setups have very different characteristics, the Schwitzer is whistling at idle and has a lot of go from about 800-1000rpm but runs out of puff above 3000 whereas the DTS comes in hard nearer 16-1800 rpm and pulls well to redline. The DTS is great for highway and touring work, the Schwitzer is great for offroad. I have heard that Safari's are more set for highway/towing work.

What's the point of this post? To highlight that the different turbos could well have different characteristics and you should be clear about what you want the turbo to achieve and it may influence the choice of turbo.

FINALLY answers ive been waitin for thanks fellas for all your input... well as it stands i think i will be throwin on a denco/schwitzer turbo kit as it is cheap easy to fit and comes in at the rev range ive been looking for :cool:

the 3b donk tends to run outta steam if you push it anywhere past 3 grand any way so uqunder10 thanks heaps for you info

ruggers you have a garret what rev range does it peek out at???? and i always thort that an external waste gate was more WANK FACTOR then anything :rofl:

but obversly not in you case.... did you put the blow off valve on after you ran the garret turbo kit for a while and is you boost system adjustable????? plus what price did you end up paying for it in total

Post by **uqunder10s** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:08 am

Singo17 wrote:Now the characteristics you have are they due to turbine size or turbo design.

I honestly don't know, that is why I tried to list all the differences. I believe that the Schwitzer comes in earlier anyway and the custom turbine wheels increase that effect, as does the lack of back pressure from the muffler etc. - I suspect.

I think that the custom turbine wheels were ordered as an option by the previous owner when he bought the Schwitzer unit and did not increase the cost, only the lead time was longer.

Post by **robbie54** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:01 am

the main difference between the denco systems and garrett systems is that denco doesnt require an intercooler.this is due to the fact that they are designed to run at 8psi/50kpa which doesnt put excessive heat into the system. the big advantage of that is reliability and also cost. anything higher than 8psi boost is going to put big pressure on motor internals.
also one other thing before you start,get a leakdown test--- itll save you big dollars in the long run!!!

Post by **bogged** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:57 am

robbie54 wrote:the main difference between the denco systems and garrett systems is that denco doesnt require an intercooler.[/b]

you can run Garretts without Intercooler.
The other difference is oil cooled V water cooled.
PS. 8psi was hardly noticeable on my car.

Website · Post by **murcod** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:45 pm

I agree with Bogged, any turbo can be run with or without an intercooler. The inlaws Garrett on their Patrol is not intercooled and running around 11PSI from memory. Intercooling simply cools the inlet air temp after the turbo has compressed it. Cooler air = more power - or it allows you to run higher boost before the inlet air temp gets too high and causes other problems.

The oil or water cooling Bogged referred to only applies to the turbo bearings- not the inlet air into the engine. Water cooling of course should help the bearings last longer, although they both should be allowed to idle down after a hard drive to prevent the oil burning off the hot bearings at switch off.

Post by **slowhilux** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:52 pm

Any turbocan run bugger all boost, ie, 8psi or less.. I can tune the Garrets on the celica to run just 5psi boost, the run them out to 22psi if i like (mmmm........330 at the tyres on this pressure

). Like murcod said , an i/c only cools the inlet air, nothing more nothing less.

Personally, there is now way i will ever buy a turbo/turbo kit that has a non watercooled turbo. Toyota was the pioneer of watercooled turbos way back in the mid 80s. When they took their designs to Garret and asked if they would build them, garret refused, not seeing any point in them. So Toyota went and built their own. Now 99.999999% of turbos are water cooled, regardless of the application they are used on.

Phill

Post by **MUSS** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:54 pm

are SHWITZER water or oil cooled?

Post by **dumbdunce** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:04 am

schwitzer makes oil only and water cooled turbos but the turbos in the Denco kits are only oil cooled. it's arguable that water cooling is not necessary on diesels as the exhaust temperatures are on average considerably lower than with a petrol engine of similar capacity or power, as diesel exhaust is mostly just hot air until you get hard on the go button. the oil change interval of 5000km and the huge oil coolers already built into all toyota diesels mean the heat from the turbo ends up in the cooling water anyway. I have pm'd you Jake with more info about the Denco.

Post by **Ruggers** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:56 am

jake i forgot to mention 3b desiels have a oil cooler on the side of the block next to the oil filter and run oil injection noozles onto the conrods for extra cooling of the rods

Post by **Fathillbilly** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 12:45 pm

murcod wrote:PS: if I was buying a turbo I'd go for Garrett- they have a real good reputation. The inlaws have got a Safari kit on a 4.2 diesel GQ Patrol and that's what they've got fitted.

do you know if Geoff Watson is still there? He Da Man

Website · Post by **murcod** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:24 pm

Do you mean at Safari???

Don't know- they just got the kit fitted here in Adelaide from one of the local 4X4 outlets.

Post by **hazard** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:27 am

I wouldnt worry too much about wether the turbo is water cooled on petrol or diesel motors - I fit Garretts to high hp air cooled motors with antilag and just leave the water lines open with no problems.

When you do have the water lines hooked up, the water tends to boil in the turbo housing anyway so it doent really do much when you are driving it hard. Keeping the oil temp down (about 10 degrees hotter than the water) and the air temperatures down are the key to a good setup. (buy an oil coolers, and Intercoolers are cheap from Jap Importers).

As dumbdunce said - 5000km oil and filter changes of good quality oil. If you add a turbo timer - only use it when you have been nailing it or towing etc. It might be worth checking the idle oil pressure if the motor has a few kms on it. Turbo manufactures quote a minimum oil pressure figure per x000 rpm, most bearing wear happens at startup and idle when there is less oil for the bearing to float on... [/quote]

Post by **Goodsy** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:08 am

The turbo is boiling the coolant so its not worth the bother. :shock:

A turbo is either cooled or not. Oil for most is for lubrication not cooling.

Post by **MUSS** » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:58 pm

Goodsy wrote:The turbo is boiling the coolant so its not worth the bother.

A turbo is either cooled or not. Oil for most is for lubrication not cooling.

i thort all turbos had to be cooled by either water or oil??????

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