Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Just an update guys, water injection has been in a few months now, so far very impressed so much so that I have now sold 3 more to others on petrol and diesels. On my own car at 12psi it actually shows 10-15rwkw (peak) more with the water pump turned on at same boost and same timing depending on run. So with no other change at all there was 10-15 kw increase on 30 degree ambient temp. I'm waiting on some smaller nozzles to come in now so I can try and see if it picks up or loses and if I can trigger it at a lower boost level. Another big upside is that it hasn't fouled a set of plugs, before the water it would foul them in around 6 weeks (im running coldest plug available, and rich mixtures), so what happened was when i installed the water injection plugs where already 4 months old and missing badly.

2 days with water installed and they cleared up and have stayed that way and still are fine today, exhaust ports and extractors are white, no carbon to be seen, I can only assume the chamber in the heads and valves is the same, so far so good.

AS ABOVE UPDATE

hi, love your thread, and currently embarking down this path, i was wondering if you had any hot tips for me, looking at a cast high mount manifold, with (gasp) t4/t5 turbo, and running gas research and removing petrol setup and prob a b2 mixer.

any thing you could add, like problems you had graphing the dissy etc would be appreciated, only looking at running 8 - 10 psi as its a daily till prolly 2010 or so.

PGS 4WD wrote:We used to make a Falcon 6 turbo system when I was at the Gasresearch Performance Centre and used water injection as it was a low buget non-intercooled system, also on many CAPA centrifical blowers.
Joel

Are you saying that water injection can be used as a budget intercooling system?

What is required and do you have any recomendtions?

Im running a hi mount Schwitzer on a TD42 and dont want to fit a front mount IC and a top mount IC will be limited due to the hi mount turbo.

Dazza

azzad wrote:Im running a hi mount Schwitzer

get a low mount manifold. simple, then go top mount.

bogged wrote:

azzad wrote:Im running a hi mount Schwitzer

get a low mount manifold. simple, then go top mount.

Thanks for the response but not the question I asked.

Dazza

The answer is yes, as a liquid vapourizes it takes latent heat from the air stream. Try emptying a can of aerosol and feel the tip, its the same way refrigeration works.

Joel

Do you have any recomendations for of the shelf gear?
Or is it usually setup for a specific application

Dazza

bogged wrote:

azzad wrote:Im running a hi mount Schwitzer

get a low mount manifold. simple, then go top mount.

Not really VL low mounts dont fit in GQ's, as for high mount its great in every way just dont buy an ebay one, either buy a 6 boost steam pipe or something like an ACE stainless one, both don't have a merge collector so there less prone to cracking especially the 6 boost one.

azzad wrote:Do you have any recomendations for of the shelf gear?
Or is it usually setup for a specific application

Dazza

The ones I have done or helped with have all been specced for individual use, the turbo your planning is wasted at 8-10 psi you'll have no bottom and and due to low boost stock head and cam next to no usable top end. A T3 not much bigger than what VL's used is perfect, there are also roller versions available.

The dizzy is an issue with the stock cam as it has too much mechanical advance early on, I actually decided to lock the mechanical out and fit a boost retard unit in replacement for the vacum advance unit, has allowed a lot more timing to be used so great bottom end, spools from 1800rpm 12 psi by 2200rpm...

Im building a new motor as we speak but that ones going to be pretty special.

azzad wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:We used to make a Falcon 6 turbo system when I was at the Gasresearch Performance Centre and used water injection as it was a low buget non-intercooled system, also on many CAPA centrifical blowers.
Joel

Are you saying that water injection can be used as a budget intercooling system?

What is required and do you have any recomendtions?

Im running a hi mount Schwitzer on a TD42 and dont want to fit a front mount IC and a top mount IC will be limited due to the hi mount turbo.

Dazza

yes it can but its hardly a budget way, most off the shelf water injection setups cost more than air to air coolers these days, i'm using both and seeing great results, but i pieced mine with different parts from all over.

NutterGQ wrote:

azzad wrote:Do you have any recomendations for of the shelf gear?
Or is it usually setup for a specific application

Dazza

The ones I have done or helped with have all been specced for individual use, the turbo your planning is wasted at 8-10 psi you'll have no bottom and and due to low boost stock head and cam next to no usable top end. A T3 not much bigger than what VL's used is perfect, there are also roller versions available.

The dizzy is an issue with the stock cam as it has too much mechanical advance early on, I actually decided to lock the mechanical out and fit a boost retard unit in replacement for the vacum advance unit, has allowed a lot more timing to be used so great bottom end, spools from 1800rpm 12 psi by 2200rpm...

Im building a new motor as we speak but that ones going to be pretty special.

I have TD42 not TB42, turbo size is fine and I dont have to worry about dizzy etc.

azzad wrote:

NutterGQ wrote:

azzad wrote:Do you have any recomendations for of the shelf gear?
Or is it usually setup for a specific application

Dazza

The ones I have done or helped with have all been specced for individual use, the turbo your planning is wasted at 8-10 psi you'll have no bottom and and due to low boost stock head and cam next to no usable top end. A T3 not much bigger than what VL's used is perfect, there are also roller versions available.

The dizzy is an issue with the stock cam as it has too much mechanical advance early on, I actually decided to lock the mechanical out and fit a boost retard unit in replacement for the vacum advance unit, has allowed a lot more timing to be used so great bottom end, spools from 1800rpm 12 psi by 2200rpm...

Im building a new motor as we speak but that ones going to be pretty special.

I have TD42 not TB42, turbo size is fine and I dont have to worry about dizzy etc.

Sorry that wasn't in response to your question, got my self all muddled up lol

I played with water injection a lot when we were fitting C.A.P.A. blowers, and we supplied it with our T.S.A. turbo Falcon kits to EB-AU Falcons.
Have been playing with it recently with James's 4.5 Petrol GU (built engine). On the low boost setting there was a slight power loss with water injection, and you could cleary see on the graphs the water kicking in. Our HAltech ECU enables us to activate the water relative to boost, rpm and intake air temp so we adjusted the water spray nozzels and were able through adding timing to get an increase in power.

We then went to our high boost setting and added a second pressure pump to the system, prevously we were unable to make more than 315 rwkW on 98 without detonation, octane boosted allowed us to get to 320 rwkW.
With the water injection added, and timing added to the point just prior to detonation we managed this more. The boost also registered about 2 psi higher and the air temperatures in the manifold on average about 8-10 degrees cooler.


So I would say yes it works, but without timing changes a drop in power is possible, and the potential gains won't be realized.

Cheers

Joel

I found the same....on low boost I lost power but reducing nozzle size helps bring some back....so on a car where you only have a lower setting you can run nozzles in the 50-100cc range.

I have played with a few steps from 230cc to 460cc and although the bigger nozzle gave the best peak with the most boost/timing it made it doughy at lower throttle positions, the 270cc so far is the best...no doughy feel and nearly exactly the same peak power.

Joel are you guys playing with water only or water/meth combo?

azzad wrote:

PGS 4WD wrote:We used to make a Falcon 6 turbo system when I was at the Gasresearch Performance Centre and used water injection as it was a low buget non-intercooled system, also on many CAPA centrifical blowers.
Joel

Are you saying that water injection can be used as a budget intercooling system?

What is required and do you have any recomendtions?

Im running a hi mount Schwitzer on a TD42 and dont want to fit a front mount IC and a top mount IC will be limited due to the hi mount turbo.

Dazza

You need a 12v pump that can supply 60-90 psi...water atomizes much better at higher pressure, plus on forced induction what ever amount of boost is at the tip needs to be taken away from the pump pressure, so a car running 15psi with a 60psi pump will actually only see 45psi at the water nozzle etc

you need a solenoid, some people use check valves but this is not ideal, with a solenoid the water line is pressurised all the time as soon as the solenoid opens the water is spraying, no delay and no water dribble while it pressurisers.

you need am atomizing nozzle the finer the spray the more heat it removes, my nozzles are around 40 micron....about the same as fog!

to trigger it you can do it a few ways, if you have good engine management this will let you do it, you can use a hobs switch to trigger it at a certain boost level or vacuum level ( i did it this way), you can use an EGT gauge output to trigger it only when EGT get a high (have a diesel set up this way).

Other than that the hoses a relay and if you want an overide switch, and of course a water tank of your choice.

We are using water/meth at 50/50, our 2 pumps are 240 volt running through an inverter, we are running 2 nozzels at the moment switched by the Haltech under boost and above 2500 rpm RPM, we may introduce a third that triggers at higher rpm ( around 4000 rpm) and boost to see if we can add any more timing at the top end. Unfortunatly we are at 96% duty on our 660 cc injectors so we are going to have to step them up to add more boost.
We have avoided a bigger turbo as we are trying to maintain as much drivebility and low down torque as possible as it has 4.11:1 gears and 37" tyres. With ratios we could go for a larger turbo and cop a bit more lag. 400 rwkW isn't that far off.

Cheers

Joel

What PSI are your pumps producing and water percentage of water meth vs fuel are you running, have you gone 10-12% or higher?

Also is there a reason you guys when the inverter and 240 volt pumps?

We went for the 240v pump for the pressure, we are around 12% but will try higher to see if with we can supress detonation with more timing and make more power.

Cheers

Joel

how much pressure are you guys running? did you end up using coffee machine pumps (yes it is what it sounds like) or agricultural pumps?

that water/meth system sounds interesting. Did you buy a complete kit via the usa, and or, did you bitsa it together? If you bought a complete kit, do you have any links to websites??

I just bought a 4.2efi patrol, and looking for some simple and easy gains in power/wankfactor


cheer's

Jimmy

Reddo wrote:that water/meth system sounds interesting. Did you buy a complete kit via the usa, and or, did you bitsa it together? If you bought a complete kit, do you have any links to websites??

I just bought a 4.2efi patrol, and looking for some simple and easy gains in power/wankfactor


cheer's

Jimmy

Are you asking me or Joel?

you old kid

My mate worked for the Australian importers of agricultural equipment including 12v pumps and solenoids so I got them from him, the tip from Spraying Systems and the Hobbs Switch locally, a lot of people are finding the kits not so good, the cheaper eBay ones that is.

Nutter great work on ur built.

do you or anyone else by any chance know how much and gas carby is and the B2 converter as im thinking of turboing my TB42 but just trying to get ideas and prices ??

Cheers.

gas research stuff is super exxy, if u get the grant expect to pay a little ontop of it for gr, if not, expect a small fortune its because of this reason alone (yea im a tight ass) that im using the impco system

if anyone is interested i have a gas kit for sale as well as everything else to turbo a rb30

PGS 4WD wrote:The answer is yes, as a liquid vapourizes it takes latent heat from the air stream. Try emptying a can of aerosol and feel the tip, its the same way refrigeration works.

Joel

As the water vapourises it absorbs latent heat, causing the temperature of the air to to decrease (sensible heat)

Latent heat is the amount of heat required to cause a change of state ie water to vapour, and cannot be measured.

Sensible heat is the temperature change that can be measured.

Specific heat is the amount of energy in joules required to cause a change of state.

Just to clarify..

Sorry Joel

B2 converter is $175 new, Throttle body I think was $500-600 last I bought one but its been a while, I was actually lucky enough to use the government grant on mine so rather than me pay cash I had all the under bonnet stuff supplied and fitted at no cost as the car already had a tank...

With that said I did another of these conversions and with the grant only had to pay the $800 for the tank as the grant covered fitting tuning and compliancing, so when you look at it like that worst case your $800 outta pocket and you have a tunable system, makes more sense than the Impco 425 and probably an L series converter for similar money by the time you add solenoids, new gas line etc.

Nice build up Nutter, very impressive.

Might be an obvious question but I am doing similar to my tb42 efi, and just wondering on a tech question, when i push 10 pound or so through the system (straight gas) will I still have vacuum from the inlet manifold for things like brake/clutch boosters etc????? the lines for petrol and other un-needed things on the manifold will get blocked off.
Thanks mate.