Outer Limits 4x4 Board

The best way to find out is to speak to an engineer in your state.

VSI 50 makes no mention of how you get the lift.

If an engineer will sign off on it then it is on them. If the engineer is a good one the RTA have no reason to question it.

Long and the short.......... find a good engineer and ask him what he will sign off on.

My personal opinion is use the poly ones. I have never had a problem in the last 10 year with them.
The other point i make is that it is an unbreakable hilux you are putting it in not a Nissan

joeblow wrote: ..........and people wonder why governments try introduce thing like VSI-50.

Another pointless comment that added nothing to the debate. Just like when you described a locker actuator as "agricultural looking" when in the opinion of many mechanical engineers it is a superior design to the one you are peddling...

Do you have anything constructive at all to add???

im unsure as to why this topic has just turned into a bitch fight about who is right. i guess it is really up to you which blocks you use and wat terrain you will be driving. both sides have stated good and bad points. now you decide which type will suit.

joeblow wrote: ..........and people wonder why governments try introduce thing like VSI-50.

Joe you obviously have a concern with this, for those of us less educated in these things please explain what means ?

Mate you have travelled this path with a dodgey (legally speaking) vehicles in the distant past .. I know you have seen the light and are on the right side of the law with leagally built and scrutinied cars.
Not all of us are up to that yet.

My 2009 hilux was signed off on by Queensland Transport last week with High Density Polyethylene Blocks (NO crush tubes).

my local rego guy,who is an independant contractor ,inspections.
said no engo is required be it BL or suspension!
50 mm max either way

he mentioned the poly blocks
i said id go ally
he said its up to you! either way

shortyq wrote:my local rego guy,who is an independant contractor ,inspections.
said no engo is required be it BL or suspension!
50 mm max either way

he mentioned the poly blocks
i said id go ally
he said its up to you! either way

A very important point is that laws vary quite a bit state-state. Which state are you in???

In QLD, you need to apply to DoT in writing for permission to do a BL. You then need to get the whole car inspected/approved directly by DoT after doing a BL.

im in wa
ncop mentions something about BL,s
you can go either BL
or you can go susp
50mm either
not both without engo!

its ths wording in the ncop thats confusing!

ISUZUROVER wrote:

joeblow wrote: ..........and people wonder why governments try introduce thing like VSI-50.

Another pointless comment that added nothing to the debate. Just like when you described a locker actuator as "agricultural looking" when in the opinion of many mechanical engineers it is a superior design to the one you are peddling...

Do you have anything constructive at all to add???

i can see you are still emotional about that.



so its ok for body lifts to be 'stacked' one top of another, no matter what material?

shortyq wrote:im in wa
ncop mentions something about BL,s
you can go either BL
or you can go susp
50mm either
not both without engo!

its ths wording in the ncop thats confusing!

Thanks for the info - I didn't know WA had implemented the NCOP. The modification rules on the dpi website are still pre-NCOP. Maybe it just hasn't been updated.

joeblow wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

joeblow wrote: ..........and people wonder why governments try introduce thing like VSI-50.

Another pointless comment that added nothing to the debate. Just like when you described a locker actuator as "agricultural looking" when in the opinion of many mechanical engineers it is a superior design to the one you are peddling...

Do you have anything constructive at all to add???

i can see you are still emotional about that.



so its ok for body lifts to be 'stacked' one top of another, no matter what material?

No, I'm not emotional, just unbiased and objective, and getting sick of all the idiots who shoot off their mouth in the tech sections on here with baseless opinions.

So, are you now admitting that you don't know if it is OK or not from an engerneering perspective, but you will happily put shizzle on people who have done it???

You are also not answering the question and twisting it round.

The question you have failed to answer multiple times, is - "what is wrong with sandwiching 2x 25mm thick by 30mm OD polypropylene blocks together???"

The rason steel or ally is recommended is that the lift block is an extension of the space betwwen the original mount and the floor.
The original mount is hard sanwiched to the floor. The movement is all taken up by the mount.
A poly or other material will move enough under the massive loads that are exhibited here and allow the mount to move.
Some people say use a crush tube to stop this, well then when the mount moves all the force is on the contact area of the crush tube, this normally then punches thru the floor.

Even metal blocks should have a washer larger than the standard mount cup to spread the load over a greater area to allow for the force multiplcation of using a spacer block. One edge of the washer or block needs to be deburred to prevent damage to the floor during flex... and they do...
The inside washer needs to be smaller by a few mm's to prevent a punching action.

Longer blocks if not very securely mounted WILL flex back and forth and eventually work the floor until it breaks.
Use the minimum height you can get away with if you really have too.

Stacked washers can also move, it just the nature of the structure.

Bazzle

hence my statement they must be tapered!

and taking into account you use the
factory bushings to absorb!

marks 4x4 market a tapered bush
for this exact reason better load distribution!
its a no brainer!

thanks for the info guys, is im jus bout to do a BL.

Out of interest, I had a look what commercial lift blocks/kits are available:

Typical example of lift blocks offered by Aussie companies:

Nissan Patrol / Ford Maverick long and short wheelbase 2" body lift blocks. Comes with high tensile bolts. Lifts body only, 2" higher with no suspension modifications, fit bigger Tyre's and have more clearance from rocks and debris for your body. The blocks are made from urethane with a steel crush tube inside of them and are 60mm in diameter. No brake or vacuum lines need to be modified.

Typical lift blocks/kits from the USA:



None of the kits I can find are tapered. I cannot see what the benefit of tapered blocks would be???

I can't see any good reason for a tapered block either.

The plastic (actual plastic, not urethane/poly) kits from the US aren't rated very highly in the US AFAIK, even with their record for craptastic afermarket products.

I don't have any problem with urethane, but Vicroads does, so I make my BL's in alloy.

I agree that a larger body block diameter is better, but there are normally practical restrictions.

It's still clear that GQ's have crap body mount design.

Steve.

The marks kits are tapered, I can only imagine that you install them with the taper facing down as there is no need to increase the contact area on the original body mount rubber, with the taper up it will increase the contact area on the actual body. However in the case of a 4 Runner, the tapered surface is too large to fit within the confines of the body mounting sheetmetal?

They also do not have crush tubes, you don't need them if the right plastic is used.

So go figure on the tapered blocks.

Crush tubes seem like a dumb idea to me, because with 2" diameter blocks (on a 4 Runner) the entire area of the block is contacting sheetmetal or the top metal surface of the body mounting rubber, and the top surface of the body mount rubber was only ever 2", so no surface area contact is lost.

Again I think it is the general populations (regulators included) ignorance of plastics that leads to either a blanket ban or blanket attitude.

Cheers

I totally agree with joe on this one. how can you think that that would not significantly reduce the strength of the mount? instead of a normal body lift, with body lift blocks and stock rubbers, that have 3 pivots of movement, you have now introduced another place in which the stud can bend/fail.

for how cheap a length of poly-urethane is and all you need to do is cut it into 50mm portions and drill a hole in it, shit like this IS the reason governments introduce things like the VSI-50, it is to cut down on the backyard, and potentially dangerous, mods....

Zook_Fan wrote:I totally agree with joe on this one. how can you think that that would not significantly reduce the strength of the mount? instead of a normal body lift, with body lift blocks and stock rubbers, that have 3 pivots of movement, you have now introduced another place in which the stud can bend/fail.

for how cheap a length of poly-urethane is and all you need to do is cut it into 50mm portions and drill a hole in it, shit like this IS the reason governments introduce things like the VSI-50, it is to cut down on the backyard, and potentially dangerous, mods....

You are correct in articulating what Joe didn't I think, I wouldn't do it that way either, even aluminium is cheap enough in 50 mm bar. About $70 p/m and theres only a little over half a meter in ten body lift blocks.

Either way if you are doing them yourself you need to do it in a lathe, not a cold saw or similar and with the poly in particular, drill a 10mm hole for a 10mm bolt, the poly will contract in upon itself and offer a slight knock in fit with next to no clearence for the body bolts.

Cheers

Struth wrote:

Zook_Fan wrote:I totally agree with joe on this one. how can you think that that would not significantly reduce the strength of the mount? instead of a normal body lift, with body lift blocks and stock rubbers, that have 3 pivots of movement, you have now introduced another place in which the stud can bend/fail.

for how cheap a length of poly-urethane is and all you need to do is cut it into 50mm portions and drill a hole in it, shit like this IS the reason governments introduce things like the VSI-50, it is to cut down on the backyard, and potentially dangerous, mods....

You are correct in articulating what Joe didn't I think, I wouldn't do it that way either, even aluminium is cheap enough in 50 mm bar. About $70 p/m and theres only a little over half a meter in ten body lift blocks.

Either way if you are doing them yourself you need to do it in a lathe, not a cold saw or similar and with the poly in particular, drill a 10mm hole for a 10mm bolt, the poly will contract in upon itself and offer a slight knock in fit with next to no clearence for the body bolts.

Cheers

I agree with everything you have said Struth. However, since the whole joint is in compression, 2 stacked blocks should not make much difference, and if they had a crush tube it would make no difference at all.

I personally would not be too keen on Aluminium, unless Copious amounts of duralac was used. I just pulled an alloy bullbar off one of my vehicles. A 10mm class 8.8 bolt had rusted down to 2-3mm diameter where it was bolted into the alloy. People with alloy body lift blocks who go on the beach regularly and don't check their body mount bolts are in danger of the bolt shanks rusting away invisibly.

Corrosion is a good point with the Ali.

I prefer poly, but the law states aluminium in Vic, so mine will get changed for engineering and probably stay in for insurance purposes.

Cheers

Struth wrote: the law states aluminium in Vic,

What about steel?

Steel is fine in vic.

Steve.

ISUZUROVER wrote:I personally would not be too keen on Aluminium, unless Copious amounts of duralac was used. I just pulled an alloy bullbar off one of my vehicles. A 10mm class 8.8 bolt had rusted down to 2-3mm diameter where it was bolted into the alloy. People with alloy body lift blocks who go on the beach regularly and don't check their body mount bolts are in danger of the bolt shanks rusting away invisibly.

That's not necessarily just an difference in metal problem. I've seen the same thing happen on towbars and they aren't alloy.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

Struth wrote: the law states aluminium in Vic,

What about steel?

Yep, sorry steel or ali.

isuzurover
that current ncop has been in effect since 2005,revised

look up under dotars site if you got a few spare hours!

The ncop has been in place since then but the states have not adopted it, as the states make the road rules what gets put in place at a national level unfortunately means squat at this stage.

What the ncop states is that the block material must be similar to the orginal material. What's original, the body, the chassis or the body rubber. The boffins who wrote it couldn't tell me.

What they did say was particular grades of polyurethane were acceptable.

shortyq wrote:isuzurover
that current ncop has been in effect since 2005,revised

look up under dotars site if you got a few spare hours!

The NCOP does not become law until it is adopted by each state. The DPI(WA) website still shows the old (pre NCOP) rules, so it is a bit confusing. Do you have it in writing anywhere that WA has adopted the NCOP???

dont think im going by hearsay!
ive been in contact with them back in 05
had meetings with reno about airbag suspension etc
besides other things
had arguments also, they are inforcing it to the letter
their was a big hooha in jan 05,the new ncop
with this vsi50 im sure another revised edition
is on the cards!
i also spoke to nsw rta around the same time
person i spoke to said nsw does not follow it
they got there own guidelines etc
was told buy clive@ welshpool tech branch that nsw would follow
given time which is going ahead buy the looks!

totally and utterly off-topic, but shortyq, could you PLEASE use punctuation and stop hitting 'Enter' half way through a sentence? it is really annoying trying to read any of your posts. i like reading a full line of text.

Cheers
Macca

macca81 wrote:totally and utterly off-topic, but shortyq, could you PLEASE use punctuation and stop hitting 'Enter' half way through a sentence? it is really annoying trying to read any of your posts. i like reading a full line of text.

Cheers
Macca

then
dont
read
it
!