Outer Limits 4x4 Board

craz3d wrote:

Bluefreak wrote:I crawled in, out and over one of these at Knox City - everything underneath 'looks' adequate but not exceptional... Cab external quality is equal to any of the dual cabs coming out of Thailand, cab interior shit all over my Triton for quality of finish including softer leather for the steering wheel and gear knobs... Seats were more comfy than any of the Jap dual cabs I've sat in...

I personally wouldn't buy one but the quality is coming up...!!!

This is how they get you. Sure, it's good when you want to buy it, but can you trust it to last you a decade or more?

not everyone buys a vehicle to last more than 10 years these days.

X2. We change our road car out at the end of the warranty period.

I wouldn't buy a chinese-branded car in a pink fit, but neither would I buy an indian, Malaysian, or Korean car. At the moment, they just don't produce product that appeals to me at all.

However, it's silly to argue that that's because I expect longer life from them. A car that's engineered to last 20 years is a waste, and actually not a very responsible thing to do. A 20 year old car, even one of very high quality, will pollute much more and be far less safe than a new average car.

Steve.

Gwagensteve wrote: A 20 year old car, even one of very high quality, will pollute much more

really? compared with the polution pumped out for mining/recycling new materials to make the new car, transporting the said materials, production of the parts/assembling the car, and transporting it back to australia?

i think the well maintained 20 year old car can pollute a little more to make those standards.

oh, but we're assuming a newer car actually pollutes less...

a VE (pre SIDI admittedly) commo we rented got ~16l/100 round town. my XF got similar mileage. polution can only come from what you put in, so really, their on par.

I didn't claim whole-life pollution.

Your XF falcon probably produces 80 TIMES the pollution of the SIDI commodore (yes, really) Take into account S02, NOX, CO - it's not just fuel use that's the problem, it's what you do with it- Which is why 20l/100km of bentley can still reach Euro IV

Pollution isn't just fuel use.

In heavily polluted cities, the air coming out the back of a brand new car is cleaner than the air going into the air filter.

My Dad's 18 month old Touareg V6 diesel still has shiny exhausts.... on the inside...

Steve.

u need cars that can last bout 20 years y? cause wat would young ppl do for first cars wat get mummy and daddy to by them a new one for a first car yer thats a smart way to teach them responsibility

Gwagensteve wrote:I didn't claim whole-life pollution.

Your XF falcon probably produces 80 TIMES the pollution of the SIDI

impossible... matter cannot be created or destroyed... if a liter of hydrocarbons goes in, where's all the carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen molecules go if they don't come out the tailpipe?

gqmudder91 wrote:u need cars that can last bout 20 years y? cause wat would young ppl do for first cars wat get mummy and daddy to by them a new one for a first car yer thats a smart way to teach them responsibility

that is ridiculous reasonong at its finest

In heavily polluted cities, the air coming out the back of a brand new car is cleaner than the air going into the air filter

That is bending reality in a big way. Sit in that same car with the exhaust plumbed inside the car and see how long u last compared to breathing outside air! I chose outside.
New cars may produce less NOX and particulates but they cannot defy chemistry and magically burn fuel and air and not produce C0 and C02. Also the Euro rating are conducted on a dyno where fairly light throttle is needed. Take that same bently out and drive like a normal person would who doesnt care about the price of fuel and see what comes out the pipe!!

Totally off topic i know.

Jimbo wrote:

In heavily polluted cities, the air coming out the back of a brand new car is cleaner than the air going into the air filter

That is bending reality in a big way. Sit in that same car with the exhaust plumbed inside the car and see how long u last compared to breathing outside air! I chose outside.

That's taking the comment out of context.

Jimbo wrote:New cars may produce less NOX and particulates but they cannot defy chemistry and magically burn fuel and air and not produce C0 and C02.

Less NOx, less particulates, less CO. These are all the big issues in terms of public health. An engine can ingest particulates (carbon) and CO and spit LESS of each out the exhaust pipe. (2CO + O2 = 2CO2)

Manufacturers are getting around the CO2 limits by using 8 speed auto transmissions, so they can keep the engine in an efficient rev range during the emissions testing (or something like that). I recently read/heard about a big Benz turbo engine (twin turbo V8?) which can complete the Euro emissions test without coming on boost - what comes out the tailpipe when the turbines spool up?

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showth ... p?t=163935

.

bad_religion_au wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:I didn't claim whole-life pollution.

Your XF falcon probably produces 80 TIMES the pollution of the SIDI

impossible... matter cannot be created or destroyed... if a liter of hydrocarbons goes in, where's all the carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen molecules go if they don't come out the tailpipe?

If we were dealing with carbon, oxygen and hydrogen in isolation that would be fine, but we're not. Control of the combustion process is what determines the range of compounds the engine spits out the exhaust and that's where it's quite possible certain harmful pollutants might have many, many times the level in the un-pollution controlled engine.

That's even before you take into account that the SIDI engine is about twice as efficient in KW/Litre as the XF motor, is moving a substantially heavier car significantly faster than the larger engine in the lighter car could for the same fuel use.

Jimbo - don't confuse "cleaner" with a couple of isolated compounds like oxygen and CO. Yes, there will be insufficient levels of oxygen in the car exhaust to support life. There may (but I stress MAY) be more CO coming out of the exhaust of a new car than is going in, but there's a whole range of other pollutants that are a huge problem which are being scrubbed from the air by a modern car- SO2 and NOX principally.

-Scott- interesting point, however, on large throttle openings modern cars tend to be quite efficient- running around lamba 0.9 (and therefore don't pollute all that badly), the challenge is keeping that efficiency on small throttle openings where engines spend most of their time- which is why very efficient atmo engines like the BMW M3 V8 and M5 V10 are being phased out for a smaller capacity engine with turbos.

Steve

tanz-e wrote:wouldnt be surprised if the-
indicators a brake.
turn the steering wheel left and it goes right.
regardless of turning circle any park takes at least three points.
it doesnt go faster than 50.
all the indicators are fake, so ya never really know where ones going.
push the accelerator and it takes minimum 45 seconds to respond...

ect. ect. ect.

No different to Holden though is it?

Most cars these days are a piece of shit, its just they come from a well established company.

More competition the better - might make the local manufacturers pull their socks up and start offering quality again.

Considering a Dual Cab Rodeo, Hilux or Triton is $40 - $50k, an Great Wall for $25k seems like good value.
A $50k Japanese (manufactured in Thailand) ute would be worth $25k in 3-5 years, so is a Great Wall was worth anything more than $0 at 5 years, your in front.

BTW, I wouldn't drive one in a pink fit! But if it gets some old shitters off the road, good on them. It also may make the price of the other cars come down.

They received bad publicity over here (NZ) when the results of crash testing came out. Have seen a couple, but I'd spend the same money on a second hand ute

craz3d wrote: pieces of shit

They have alot in common with your Hilux then is what your getting at?

HUSSLN wrote:

craz3d wrote: pieces of shit

They have alot in common with your Hilux then is what your getting at?

touché

yeah pretty much

although i seem to recall your black one not being too well off either

EDIT: Wait, why the f**k are you defending these things

my black one was a shitbox for sure. I don't agree with your arguments and i think value for money they will allow people to get into new cars. I won't be buying one but i also wouldnt buy alot of cars based on alot of different reasons. There is a thread on 4wdaction and the guy is very happy with the ute and he is 4wdriving with it. There as capable as a rodeo with isn't much at all

KIWI wrote:They received bad publicity over here (NZ) when the results of crash testing came out. Have seen a couple, but I'd spend the same money on a second hand ute

well the SUV ones scored a 4 star ANCAP rating here so that's not bad for a $24k 4WD

grimbo wrote:

KIWI wrote:They received bad publicity over here (NZ) when the results of crash testing came out. Have seen a couple, but I'd spend the same money on a second hand ute

well the SUV ones scored a 4 star ANCAP rating here so that's not bad for a $24k 4WD

that's better than pretty much anything on the second hand 4wd market in that price range too.

wonder if the utes will get upgraded to hit 4 stars as well

ugliest thing i have ever seen

Gwagensteve wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:I didn't claim whole-life pollution.

Your XF falcon probably produces 80 TIMES the pollution of the SIDI

impossible... matter cannot be created or destroyed... if a liter of hydrocarbons goes in, where's all the carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen molecules go if they don't come out the tailpipe?

If we were dealing with carbon, oxygen and hydrogen in isolation that would be fine, but we're not. Control of the combustion process is what determines the range of compounds the engine spits out the exhaust and that's where it's quite possible certain harmful pollutants might have many, many times the level in the un-pollution controlled engine.

That's even before you take into account that the SIDI engine is about twice as efficient in KW/Litre as the XF motor, is moving a substantially heavier car significantly faster than the larger engine in the lighter car could for the same fuel use.

Jimbo - don't confuse "cleaner" with a couple of isolated compounds like oxygen and CO. Yes, there will be insufficient levels of oxygen in the car exhaust to support life. There may (but I stress MAY) be more CO coming out of the exhaust of a new car than is going in, but there's a whole range of other pollutants that are a huge problem which are being scrubbed from the air by a modern car- SO2 and NOX principally.

-Scott- interesting point, however, on large throttle openings modern cars tend to be quite efficient- running around lamba 0.9 (and therefore don't pollute all that badly), the challenge is keeping that efficiency on small throttle openings where engines spend most of their time- which is why very efficient atmo engines like the BMW M3 V8 and M5 V10 are being phased out for a smaller capacity engine with turbos.

Steve

Bit beyond you Joe?

The economics and ethics of trading on old vehicle on a cheap new vehicle that meets newer standards I'd say is a relevant part of this debate.

Steve.

I haven't heard much about the new great wall 4x4s at all .
Personally I don't think they look any good.


That is what we were talking about ... wasn't it.

I can't remember

CRUSHU wrote:(manufactured in Thailand)

Key point.

Not sure if it has any relevance, but I work in the steel game, and once imported a batch of mild steel from china.

One of clients specified that we do not give them components made from chinese steel, as it has a higher carbon content and therefore is somewhat weaker than stuff made by other countries. Dunno how true/false this is but food for thought none-the-less.

Flipside, my old lady had a Hyundai Excel, which she bought as a demo model in 1998. She traded it in this year, and in that time it had been serviced twice (once by the dealer, the other by myself) and it was still running strong, everything worked well, except for windscreen washer. And dealer remarked how good condition it was in!!

stumpyGU wrote:Not sure if it has any relevance, but I work in the steel game, and once imported a batch of mild steel from china.

One of clients specified that we do not give them components made from chinese steel, as it has a higher carbon content and therefore is somewhat weaker than stuff made by other countries. Dunno how true/false this is but food for thought none-the-less.

It's false.
More carbon gives you higher strength steel.
Besides, it might have been made from aussie iron-sand.

leehamescort wrote:China's building Merc's, Beamers, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, everything.

What models of those brands are made in China?

Not sure about Benz but I'm aware that all the others are building in China for the chinese domestic market.

If your QA/QC is right you can build anything anywhere.

Steve.

Interesting, never heard that before.

i have heard of at least 6 great wall utes that with a bit of a load on them WILLNOT make it up the towommba(wish i listened to spelling teacher at school) range. just pyhically will not drive up the hill. so if that is anything to go by il stick to my na diesel pootrol.