Bilstein Warranty

Post by **Bush65** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:25 pm

I'd like to see a better photo of the failure surface, particularly of the part of the rod welded to the eye.

I reckon something is wrong with your setup. If the shockie is mounted properly, the rod should only see axial loads and they would not cause a failure like that, in that position.

From what I can tell from the photos of the failure, you may be getting bending loads in the rod at the point where it failed, when the shock is compressed, leading to the fatigue failure.

In the 3rd photo, it looks like the crack has progressed from the side where your fingers are toward the side where your thumb is. This indicates the direction of the bending.

In a reasonable setup, fatique can occur where the rod is welded to the eye, because of stress raisers, weld defects, changes in metalurgy, Hydrogen embrittlement and locked in stresses from the welding. But there are none of those causes (except possibly Hydrogen embrittlement from the chrome plating process) where your rod failed.

So it just leaves abnormal loading from your installation.

I would guess that Bilstein are not at fault, but I would like a better look at the failure surface and you setup.

Post by **Slunnie** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:42 pm

Try it without the flash Anthony.

Bush65 do you think that it relates to axle rotation around the A-frame and a tight bush?

My speculation :roll:

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:24 pm

I just opened the photos and had a look at em and there shit arnt they

Post by **RUFF** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:13 pm

Didnt you say the spring fell out at the same time as this happened? If so my guess is that it got between the shock and either the body or the diff.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:58 pm

yes the spring came out but I know for a fact that the only way to get the springs in and out with the setup was by removing the shock or compressing the spring

hence why when my mate was explaining that the spectator said my shock broke on extension (weather it was damage b4hand and then broke or not i dont know) then obviously the diff was alloud that extra droop (i was limiting the down travel with my shock like you currently are) and then the spring cam out :roll:

I dont know but all in all I am quiet over it and I am gonna use this shock as the riser for the letterbox thingy i am gonna make

Post by **RUFF** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:10 pm

Now its making even less sence to me. If you had to compress the spring to get it out with the shock connected then you deffianatly dont need anything more than the stock spring retainers.

You said these broke so then it is totaly possible for the spring to get out first. Even stock springs with stock shocks fall out if the retainers are not on.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:13 pm

Ruff,

I am assuming they broke when the upper part of the spring was unseated and didnt seat correctly then when the weight came down to the bumpstop the spring was on an angle and bent the retainers and popped out the back

Post by **landy_man** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:20 pm

are your springs retained at the top...

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:28 pm

No i didnt have them retained at the top I want to have them retain upper an dlower but didnt have it retained at the time I do now..... i am a cable tie bandit :lol:

Post by **landy_man** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:43 pm

just reading through all the posts again and it is not making much sense...
IMHO if you just replace the shock this is going to happen again and again... there is obviously something wrong with your setup.... and i dont reckon the shock broke on extension... it most probably broke before that and "the spectator" only saw the broken shock once your wheel had dropped down low enough to be able to see it....

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:52 pm

yeah thats what I was thinkin at forst and I originally thought that the spring may have come out and some how hit the shock and broke it but then I was thinking back on how I put the springs in and also when I check it fully flexed and the springs were still seated and could not be pulled out

Trust me I am just as confused as you are :silly:

Post by **Bush65** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:54 pm

Slunnie wrote:Try it without the flash Anthony.

Bush65 do you think that it relates to axle rotation around the A-frame and a tight bush?

My speculation

Yes, those and combined with a bad angle of the top mounting pin.

Post by **RUFF** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:58 pm

AnthonyP wrote:yeah thats what I was thinkin at forst and I originally thought that the spring may have come out and some how hit the shock and broke it but then I was thinking back on how I put the springs in and also when I check it fully flexed and the springs were still seated and could not be pulled out

Trust me I am just as confused as you are

You cant fully compress a spring while the vehicle is stationary. So my guess is that when the compressed spring is compressed while momentum is involved it will allow the other spring to come out and this is why your factory retainers failed and also why i beleive it is more than likely that the spring came out and totaled your shock.

Shocks generaly dont break through the shaft without a side impact. The weld on the eye will usually let go before the shaft does on full extension.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:59 pm

Bush65 wrote:
Slunnie wrote:Try it without the flash Anthony.

Bush65 do you think that it relates to axle rotation around the A-frame and a tight bush?

My speculation

Yes, those and combined with a bad angle of the top mounting pin.

I am using the rangie spares upper shock mount kicker and its ment to put the shock on a better angle (its not much but it puts the top of the mount about ten cms further out then the bottom)

I have eyeballed this in compressed and extension and both seem to be ok (the bush isnt squished to unevenly)

Post by **Bush65** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:13 pm

The rod in those Bilsteins is 14mm dia. I don't know what the material is but it would take more than twice the total weight of a rangie to cause it to fail under tension. I can't concieve any way you would get a load like that (if it did you would certainly know it happed) and even so it would not have failed at that place.

I'm still forced back to my earlier supposition.

Post by **RUFF** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:24 pm

The angle of the Shock mounts are going to have nothing to do with why it broke at the shaft. We run cheap series 60 munroe shocks on most of our buggies and also have on the rear of modified rangies as well as the rear of my lux. We realy dont put that much thought in where the shock has to be mounted or the angles the mounts are on. They just get fitted wherever they will fit.

We have never broken a single one(ok one) and we drive a lot harder than almost anyone on this board. The only one that we destroyed was due to the eye snapping off not the shaft.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 pm

well just thought I would update everyone......... I have a temporary shock in place.

Now bein the most sophisticated dodgy carnt i am :lol:

and after speaking with Rod Dirte last night he gave me an idea :idea:

I have a full set of nissan shocks in the shed :lol:

grinded off lower eye mount of rear shock, grinded of lower pin mount of front shock :lol:

weld on to lower rear shock and away I go

Alittle less stretch but atleast my spring wont fall out :lol:

Post by **GRIMACE** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:17 am

Well I have a yet another concern about the bilsteins under my rig....

I took the other rear one of this mourning and its doesnt cycle correctly at all :?:

When new You could use your body weight to compress it and it would extend all on its own at a slow pace...........

Now it is pretty much stuck at stock riding height (resting position) I have to physically bash it to compress it a little bit and then I can use my weight to compress the rod fully..... and when it extendeds it only opens to just short of the stock riding height.

Sorta like the broken one which i thought the rod was bent on cause it wouldnt open all the way........ but this one still has the eye on the end so I jamed it between a tight spot and pulled the shock to fully open position. Check the rod and it is straight :?:

not bent and not dinged or anything.

Ok so now i know that the rods not bent (on the intact shock) so I try to compress it.... It will compress with my body weight to standard rest position, but then gets stuck...? I have to bash it down abit then my weight is again sufficient to compress it.........

NOTE: by standard ride position/rest height I mean where it would usually sit on my vehicle in a stopped position on flat ground.

MY MAIN QUESTION ARE THESE MENT TO DO THIS AFTER ABIT OF USE OR SHOULD THE SHOCK FUNCTION AS PER THE OUTTOF THE BOX SPECS ? ? ?

My assumption is both of these shock have the same problem, as i think if I could get a good grip on the broken rod end of the other shock I could probably pull it out and find that the rod on that one is not bent either ? ? ?

Wierd shiznit......

sorry if none of that makes sense I just read it and was like

Post by **bazzle** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:58 am

Sounds like a small dent in outer case. AND only has to be miniscule.
A good reason to use twin tube OMEs etc.

Bazzle

Post by **GRIMACE** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:03 am

well if thats the case then you could be correct but by small dent do you mean less than a milimetre ? ? ?

And if thats the case, then I wont be using bilstein anymore either. :roll:

I just flushes $500 down the drain :cry:

THIS IS GONNA BE ONE EXPENSIVE MUTHERFAWKIN LETTERBOX BY THE TIME ITS DONE :armsup:

Cheers
Anthony

OK who makes twin tube gas charged 14" travel shocks then ? ? ?
I need a list to make my choice, the right choice

ALSO shocks to be eye to eye

Post by **RUFF** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:35 pm

Yes any dint at all in a MONO tube shock will destroy it. And Bilsteins are prone to this. I cant beleive that you were not aware of this. This is the main reason you dont see these used offroad much unless you have sponcorship.

There are a lot of Shocks that come in a 14" variant but you cant use the full length of a 14" shock anyway so why go so long? The balljoint binds before you use a 14" shock.

Post by **mickrangie** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:26 pm

RUFF wrote:Yes any dint at all in a MONO tube shock will destroy it. And Bilsteins are prone to this. I cant beleive that you were not aware of this. This is the main reason you dont see these used offroad much unless you have sponcorship.

There are a lot of Shocks that come in a 14" variant but you cant use the full length of a 14" shock anyway so why go so long? The balljoint binds before you use a 14" shock.

Bilsteins shocks are like Land Rovers.... Just one of those fings that most
just don't understand :finger:

Anthony P needs a farkin Russian Tank or Uni Mog!!!

I never busted my Bills and I run MUCH bigger tyres then 29" :rofl:

Is he trying to crush cars in his back yard?

Post by **landy_man** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:28 pm

yep i can vouch for mick... he drives like a maniac and has never damaged his Blisteins...

Post by **Slunnie** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:36 pm

Just shield them if they are getting rock dented. I run full length shields over the fronts. They're not perfect, but they work for me.

Post by **GRIMACE** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:45 pm

mickrangie wrote:
RUFF wrote:Yes any dint at all in a MONO tube shock will destroy it. And Bilsteins are prone to this. I cant beleive that you were not aware of this. This is the main reason you dont see these used offroad much unless you have sponcorship.

There are a lot of Shocks that come in a 14" variant but you cant use the full length of a 14" shock anyway so why go so long? The balljoint binds before you use a 14" shock.

Bilsteins shocks are like Land Rovers.... Just one of those fings that most
just don't understand

Anthony P needs a farkin Russian Tank or Uni Mog!!!

I never busted my Bills and I run MUCH bigger tyres then 29"

Is he trying to crush cars in his back yard?

yeah but all your up travel ios lost bye scrub :finger:

Ruff I think 14 inch travel shock is exactly what i can cycle right now thats with the ball joint bindin and maybe even with abit of ovulation in the ball joints mount

Post by **GRIMACE** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:49 pm

Ruff,

anotrher thing, when i drop my rangie of to Rod for the mods I am gonna get him to make some custom upper and lower eye mounts and fit your big arse monroe cheapies to the rear........ :armsup:

time for some real wheelin :armsup:

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:24 pm

I have mentioned this before on another thread. The top raer shock mount on Rangeys and 110's is set at the wrong angle for extra wheel travel with longer shocks, and on full articulation the shock shafts flex. If the shaft is quite small as many Bilsteins are then they will break. If the shaft is big, then I have seen the top chassis mount break. It took me many hours cycling the rear suspension up and down to determine the optimum compound angle for the top mount and i had to fabricate a new chassis bracket for the top mount to bolt to. Unfortunately I sold that vehicle and it went to Nauru so I cannot photograph the mount.

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:46 pm

The other thing I forgot to mention is that many aftermarket shocks have smaller eyes and rubber bushes than standard Rangey or the larger 110's
and therefore bind much earlier and stress the shaft. I run all my shocks with the top cover cut off so that I can observe what is happening to the shaft during articulation.

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