Outer Limits 4x4 Board

CustomTurbos wrote:@ Northside GTX Post

That is flywheel corrected power, not at the wheels, torque is in ftlb and is around 710nm peak @ crank. I think it is important to state that. It's nice power for sure. But, AFR's are quite low at top end (I believe ~16?), so EGT's will be on the high side during extended rus.

The dyno used is also a loaded run on retarder, which spools the turbo earlier and gives meaty low end data - all corrct mind you, but important to mention compared to a dyno result from UGOTNUFN with load response which loads vehicle to the square of the rpm. Hence acceleration at 1500rpm is 4 times that of 3000rpm and this results in proportionatly less load up in low end - the exact same area that turbos are lazy and need time to spool. This is why he does loaded power runs at fixed rpm to check.

Honestly I think you purposely fill as many threads as you can with photos of your own products or results even when they are OT - I have found this a bit annoying in the past on IH8mud as have some other posters. Its all good any well to make posts etc but you tend to try and hijack everything you touch and question almost everything you can while trying to keep yourself clean with a happy face, its not being a good sport. The thread starter would not get the results you posted with the 120cc of fuel that he requested initially, so how is it relevent when there is already a thread you started with results from the GTX30 - which are good results, no doubt (but possible with other manufacturers). A modified TD05 could get VERY close results to what you quoted from the GTX30 with better spool.

UF do their own turbos, not sure if you actually know that already or just trying to play schoolyard tactics - it is entertaining but a bit too OT for me. As for trying to guess the mods; they have been doing turbos for years and have experienced people that have observed many different mods that OEM's use of difefrent models, tried a few things, done back to back dynos and found what works on the TD42. If only it was as easy as a flutd inlet and outlet. When I build my own turbos, I select a different spec wheel and close up the tolerances.... going the other way cant be good for efficiency or surge. I've never done it so may be wrong, but the approach you suggest would seem to me trying to make something do what it was never designed for by fitting in some dodgy machining.

I dont think that you have a right to demand AFR's, considering some of the data is IP. By all means release as much as you like - it all goes nicely into my calculator :-)

As for ball bearings and things not adding up that you posted earlier; the thing is the numbers really do add up. UGOTNUFN can contact me with injector pump specs and turbo specs and intercooler details and I can get within a hares breath of the reality in both flywheel and at wheels power when dynoed almost every time.

Regarding the ball bearings and spool, this can be a bit of an issue in petrols but its benefit is so small in an older school diesel that in my opinion based on experience, theory and logic, it isnt a deal breaker by any means when selecting a turbo. You are better off paying attention to rotating mass and turbine sizing and turbine trim. If there was really that much drag from bushed turbos, you would need monumental increases in drive energy and the cars would have so much back pressure in relation to boost that the power would be terrible - the fact is the power is just fine.

There are two main benefits I see and that is mostly for the pertrol engine - an engine that has low off throttle exhaust flow (because it has a throttled intake air) and lower exhaust emmisions because of the low amount of oil in the cartridge meaning lower propensity to seep oil into exhaust. The lower friction of BB has such small impact on a diesel of the size of a TD42 that it ceases to reflect in performance significantly if at all.

My cousins TD42 with the 2860 was a really great truck to drive, everything was setup perfectly (its just the way he does things) and it fairly hammered. But down low response was a real issue and surge was a real issue (turbo did die) when trying to get any sort of low end response by fueling it up. Since he raced he had no care for smoke. It cleaned up past 1800 (or so, maybe closer to 2k) but in many cases that rpm was too high for what he wanted.

However the TD05 that UGOTNUFN has referred to (and I posted the results because they were exactly to the pump values of 120cc quoted) is a better option; it spooled just as quick but can be pushed into much higher pressure ratios in low end - I dont think it would surge at 22psi @ 1700 and it would get there without too bad AFR's - probably 15-16 or so. There is no question at all that the vehicle with the TD05 is significantly quicker than that with the 2860.

Northside 4x4 wrote:
I might go out and measure up the one of the UF TD05's laying in the workshop then.
Just at a quick glance, machined out inlet and outlet on the compressor and slightly opened up the squish between compressor and cover.

Same as MTQ does actually, they dont do the mods for you by any chance do they?

Terranonut - Results below with a gtx30 frout mount cooler, custom intake manifold and upgraded 12mm pump.
Thats the kind of power curve you get out of a 30 series, about 400rpm slower spoolup than the 2860 series, but much meatier top end.

CustomTurbos wrote:@ Northside

@ 2500rpm, you are showing ~ 525ftlbs at crank = 712nm

which @ 2500rpm is 250hp @ crank

which is what the graph says, so that means theres zero drivetrain loss - obviously its not zero

CustomTurbos wrote:

Northside 4x4 wrote:

CustomTurbos wrote:@ Northside

@ 2500rpm, you are showing ~ 525ftlbs at crank = 712nm

which @ 2500rpm is 250hp @ crank

which is what the graph says, so that means theres zero drivetrain loss - obviously its not zero

I have not setup drive train losses so its probably not close to the actual torque at the crank. I will print out a tractive effort graph instead. And you can weave your math's with that.

moddedgu - I can post some up tomorrow. I started all the runs from about 1800rpm though as it is pretty dirty down low.
No point running from 1000rpm on a setup like this as it will never be in that range when its being used.



To NS:

Look, if you are going to tell me in other posts that something doesn't add up and then rather than making unspecific comments like yours I actually show you that something you post doesn't add up, whats the problem? In actual fact, if you haven't entered drivetrain losses then your flywheel torque is higher - that's a good thing

Regarding the UF turbos, since I have seen all the modded bits I can categorically say that the mods are well thought out and executed and by no means are there tolerance increases like suggested. I cringe at such things but recognize that with something like the HT18 which won't surge, maybe increasing tolerances like that is a cheap way to get some flow without replacement of hard parts. The TD's are a different animal though.

moddedgu wrote:I'll drive down and pick one up or take photos of one of these Turbos tomorrow!

Northside 4x4 wrote:Perhaps you should reread some of your earlier posts if you want to talk about 'beating people down'
My posts have been deleted as I said I would. You going to continue to keep this thread going down the gurgler? Because I have yet to read one post from you in this thread that has helped/contributed to the OP's question.

Custom - Perhaps the email was not sent by me then if it is not under the same name. As I have certainly never said anything bad or good about your products as I have never even had the chance to test one.

twodiffs wrote:Do you guys even realise that you have taken this thread to a level that is way higher (turbo tech wise) than what the average punter even needs to know?. Most of us (speaking for myself) just want to know solid reliable basics of what is simple and works, i'd go so far as to say that either a 2860 or td05 will do both. For my part though i'm fixed on a td05.

I'm not saying this has gone off topic but it's got personal and the tech stuff you guys mention is probably only going to serve comp guys or someone who really wants to get themselves up to spec or higher than layman level.

Don't stop by all means buty keep it at layman level without the slanging.

Northside 4x4 wrote:I'd like to publicly apologise to UF/Ugotnufn for my comments earlier in this thread. I was mistaken in what I said, and have had it removed by moderators.

moddedgu wrote:

Northside 4x4 wrote:I'd like to publicly apologise to UF/Ugotnufn for my comments earlier in this thread. I was mistaken in what I said, and have had it removed by moderators.

NS, We have all moved on now and UGOTNUFN is on the road atm, and he will respond when he can.

David