Outer Limits 4x4 Board

John, I had better qualify my response to the bump steer question a little better. with a non power steered box, any conflicting geometry between the drag link and the Panhard rod/ "A frame" or Watts linkage is mostly transmitted through to the steering column, so a loose grip on the steering wheel permits the forces that cause bump steer to converted to steering wheel movement. The Land Rover Power steering boxes are unpowered for the first 11 degrees left and right of centre to give good road feel, so the same thing applies. Other boxes that have 100% powersteering would probably resist the side forces applied by the drag link when hitting a dip in the road and cause the front wheels to deflect off centre. This is true bump steer.
I dont know whether it is journalistic license, or whether Nigel has mixed up some details but there are a few mistakes in the 4wd monthly article and I will correct them on this thread as I find them when I read the full story, but just for starters. The central rear coil spring does not increase Antisquat Charecteristics anymore than standard side mounted springs of the same combined rate. It is there to maintain payload capacity while still permitting good axle articulation.
The Watts linkage does not raise the roll centre for improved handling or cornering. It is there purely for tyre clearance as described earlier.
I don't use a Watts linkage on my own Landy because my coils are mounted directly under the chassis and I dont need the tyre clearance during articulation.The Watts linkage is an unneccesary complication if clearance is not an issue. I could not legally go any wider in the wheel track for clearance and Watts linkage addressed the problem.
The CV joints are very marginal so Corefields or similar would probably be next on the list. There is also an 80 series front end with 105mm CV's in Nigels shed that could be adapted.

Landy man, I chose a Patrol rad because it was the right height and width, held more water than a 110 one and good used ones were more readily available.
It would be very difficult to fit the crawler box to the LT230 because the large diameter of the planetaries and housing interferes with the large handbrake drum. You would either have to space it a long way back, or adapt a series 1,2 or 3 handbrake assembly. Also because there are no dead overdrives about for LT230's, many more parts have to be made from scratch.
Thor, this by Nigels own admission in terms of time and money spent is the most overcapitalised vehicle on earth , and you may have to sell two Patrols to reproduce it.
Bill.

Thanks for the additional info Bill. I had picked up on the antisquat and roll centre height issues when I first read the article, but later thought no more about it.

i come into this abit late, but after gettin back from my holiday to read this article in my 4wd monthly mag (that actually arrived this time) all i can say is

WOW there is heap of trippy shiznit goin on under that vehicle.... I like it....no i love it


Bill, i was gonna ask the same Q as Landy_man as that crawler box seems to be a great little creation, bit dissapointed to see that the setup will not be very friendly on a rangie with lt230

I am off to read the article again

Bill, did you weigh Nigel's landie after it was finished???

Yes Ben we had to weigh it to register it. 2215 kgs.empty, wet.
Bill.

just want to put my two bobs worth in Bill,
nice build.

Rick.

Thankyou Rick, the project taught me quite a lot. I would love to have the time and facilities to have a crack at another one but family commitments mitigate against that.
Regards Bill.

bill, are you going to turn spanners anywhere soon?
david

Well I hope to again soon David. trouble is finding the right job in the right area. But I wouldn't be able to devote as much of my own spare time to this all consuming interest as I used to.
Bill.

Bill, i just have a quick question regarding the stability of the forced articulation system that i find very interesting.

If Nigel was driving along a sideslope that was quite steep(lets say the sideslope was sloping drivers side down) what would happen if the front right wheel dropped into a hole causing the suspension to droop downwards. Would the back left wheel be also forced down thus increasing the chance of rolling?

I hope this question makes sense

Thanks
Rob

daddylonglegs wrote:Well I hope to again soon David. trouble is finding the right job in the right area. But I wouldn't be able to devote as much of my own spare time to this all consuming interest as I used to.
Bill.

So how about commercially manufacturing the crawler box adaptor kits you mentioned earlier. If you made them for the LT230 you would have about 30 customers in the states alone. Is there any way to mount the crawler box further rearward so you don't have to change the handbrake???

Rob, When I was testing the hybrid before engineering inspection it was fully centrally sprung at rear with no side springs or side shocks We hadn't painted it yet so I was free to do my worst. I attempted ridiculous obstacles at all angles trying to catch the system out but it performed extremely well. I did manage to lay the vehicle on its side by driving along a 2 metre deep x 2.5 metre wide ravine with very steep banks, turning the wheels sharp left and articulating out. The articulation required to do this meant that the right hand rear corner of the roof scraped the opposite bank, so technically it was on its side but still drove out this situation and self righted.
Ben, I have to have another look at an LT230 to work out how to design the spudshaft and rework the t/case input/crawler output gear,
To fit a spudshaft onto the standard R380 mainshaft means that the gear must be bored out quite a bit. that will require a front bearing with a larger inside diameter. the Pto dog teeth on back of gear are not very strong, so these have to be replaced with a much longer tail and dog teeth that match the quadratrac output. It is a long way back to clear the handbrake drum, so the unit would need to have extra support in addition to the six pto flange bolts. It is an awful lot of work so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for me to get around to it. It is probably more a job for someone like Advance Adaptors in the States or Maxidrive over here.
I hope there will be someone to take over the reins when Mal Story from Maxidrive eventually goes into a well earned retirement.
Bill.

Bill, given that the build was essentially no expenses spared why did Nigel decide not to go with portals? So much driving in Victoria these days depends on having diff clearance in deep ruts. Sure the size of the Swampers will help but those with portals would be uber nice!

By the time portals became more readily available we, or Nigel at least had invested too much money in the Mcnamara airlockers, 35spline axles,spindles,hubs and Maxidrive bits. Towards the end of the project we got some Volvo portal axles and I installed them on his son Tims 110 county, so now they can directly compare the pro's and cons of each system. But yes, I agree portals are the optimum legal solution to the everdeepening wheelruts we have in Victoria. You can't just keep buying bigger and bigger tyres each season.

Bill.

Bill
This vehicle is radical.
Is it really capable off road?
where do you begin when you build a vehicle like this?
What inspired it?

Got to get a copy of the magazine.

Mike

I can't really remember what inspired the project Mike. I think we originally just wanted to put a Landy Body on a Rangey Chassis. Then I put a three link front end on my series 2 shorty, discovered what a big difference that made, and adapted the idea to the hybrid, and so on and so on. Yes it is highly capable.
Bill.

Bill
I have been studying the magazine over the weekend.
This is some vehicle and I compliment both you and Nigel on the creation.

One thing I dont really understand and cannot see from the pictures is how the torsion bar anti sway works.
Would't it just effectively act like supplementary springs as opposed to provide anti sway?

This car is so mechanically complex it would be great to see better photos.
Are there any photos during fabrication and test?

Keep up the good work!

Mike

Hi Mike, Understandably due to the complexity of this vehicle,the magazine article was a little innacurate in that they said I used a single VW torsion bar wheareas in fact I used a complete ,modified Beetle rear suspension with 2 torsion bars connected together by a splined sleeve attached to a fabricated "A" frame onto which I attached a suspension air bag, so in addition to acting as a sway bar it is also an air adjustable supplementary torsion spring.
Nigel, who has recently begun to visit this forum does have some video footage of early testing on his farm, before we prepared the bodywork for painting. He may be able to post it on this thread sometime.

Bill.

Nigel's Hybrid in development in October 2001

3 axles and 3 difflocks= heaven. That sounds like Peter Farrer. If so, Thanks for the photo's Pete, and welcome to the forum.
Bill.

Hi Daddylonglegs - nope, not Peter ... but his friend Tony.

Only wished I had taken more photos along the way, but I guess Nigel has CD-ROM's full of photos!

Hey Bill...

When ,making the rear bar, does it sit at the original height as the old one at the centre piece, to did you lift the floor to clear all the extras and lift the bar???

Dave

I could not remember what I did at the back for a moment Dave. I remember I shortend the rear door and the rear crossmember is higher in relation to the floor, but the reason for it escapes me now. Next time I see the truck it will come back to me.
Bill.

Bill

I finally made it onto the forum.

I must say it is very informative - what have I been missing?

Great to see so much interest in the Hybrid and good to see that your extensive expertise and knowledge is being widely sought.

If there is an interest I can dig out some of the photos taken at various stages of the Hybrid development.

Nigel

yes please Nigel....
would love to see the buildup and slighltu more detailed pics of the forced artic. system... the pics in 4wd month are too small...

Thanks

Yes Please, detailed pics of EVERYTHING!!!

Most definetly Nigel.

regards
Michael.

Good to see you here Nigel, and great truck.

Hi All

Here are some of the photos of the hybrid.

1. Chassis.
Note no rear outboard spings.
This was early in the development.



2. Underside.
Showing general layout.



3. Front forced articulation setup.
Shows shafts and torque rod with suspension in droop.



4. Forced articulation gearbox.



5. Rear forced articulation setup.
Shows suspension in droop.



6. Watts linkage.
With front suspension in droop.



This is the first time I have posted photos so I hope they work and are clear.
I will sort out some more soon.
Thanks to Tony (Vidman) for Technical help in posting these.

Nigel

Hi

If someone with computer knowledge can tell me how to post the pictures as a thumb that can be clicked to download the bigger image it might be better.

With these bigger photos the download time to view the post will be very slow for those not on cable.

Sorry if this has slowed things down, I can edit the post later.

Thanks

Nigel