Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Utemad wrote:I have a 10 000lb Hydraulic Ox on my 97 Rodeo. I have been told you can get an electric pump to run them instead of using a motor driven one.

Last Cup weekend we recovered a Jackaroo that had swallowed water in the Wonnangatta River. Problem was that with no motor their was no winch (Ox hydaulic) also they had no other recovery gear ie. no snatch straps and the winch hook was stuck on the only front recovery point.

SO I would imagine that if you were doing comps you would need some other way of running the pump if you stall in a big bog hole etc.

What about the fact that my Ox hydraulic is about half the weight of the equivalent Warne electric? Thats a big thing on a torsion bar front end.

If you want the benefit of an electric winch in that it will get you to safe ground if you have engine trouble then get an electric hydraulic fluid pump.

To be perfectly honest I have only had to used my winch once in the two years it has been on my ute. I have used it more but if I didn't have a winch I would have only been in the shit without it that once.

If you want it to go fast then use a higher volume/pressure pump. Same as when I rev my ute to get the winch going quicker.

Johnno, if that Jack had a ARB winch bar he could put his winch hook through one of his high lift jack points and then that would leave two recovery hooks free. That's what mine is anyway. Never had to use the highlift on the right side of my ute though. Could be a pain if I do.

hydraulics are fine if you can cope with the cost and the weight to make em work good you have to have a resonable amount of hydraulic oil onboard so you can keep it cool and there is auto dissconects to replace the shear pin on pto driven best way iin my mind and as guts has said the line speed is great on muzs old truck the thing winched on so fast the cable had trouble layering onto the drum

Your right Stuee, A PTO winch works off the vehicle drivetrain. Normally, you have transfer case in neutral, enguage the PTO drive (Pull/push lever or knob) then put gearbox in gear, start motor and winch away.
This answers Grazzas original question. PTO winches can be either slow or fast, It depends on what gear you are in. I use first or second for winching, and 5th for cable recovery.

this is true for a Landcruiser or any vehicle where the PTO is driven off the transfer case but not for a Nissan where it is driven off the gearbox

droopypete wrote:

twinnie wrote:the prob with pto and engine driven hydro's is if you hydrolic it or stall for some reason or other then youre stuffed.

Matt

I always love this argument, if you are out in the bush and you have blown up your motor, being bogged is very low in your list of problems, and just how far is an electric winch going to pull you on level ground, if it is running only on the battery without the engine running?

i don't mean to unload on you Matt, but having had PTO and electric winches from 6000 to 10,000 pound, and love them both for diferent reasons I find that argument a bit ilinformed
Peter.

i was talking about things like the pic abouve where you stall and you'd risk damage starting the car. i can think of plenty of reasons why you would want to run your winch when your engine isn't. the idear of pulling your self along flat ground is just stupid thats what mates are for. i am kind of informed you see


Matt

Who spends $2000 on a winch and does not spend $500 on a snorkle
J Top

J Top wrote:Who spends $2000 on a winch and does not spend $500 on a snorkle
J Top

I know someone that ocasionally drives the tow car thru puddles that cant be negotiated around. It has a winch but no snorkel.

Utemad wrote:What about the fact that my Ox hydraulic is about half the weight of the equivalent Warne electric? Thats a big thing on a torsion bar front end..

1) what happens when your engine dies?
2) torsion front end? on what?

twinnie wrote:i the idear of pulling your self along flat ground is just stupid thats what mates are for. i am kind of informed you see


Matt

Mat I sould have said "and just how far is an electric winch going to pull you on level ground, let alone when it is stuck in the middle of a river"
my point is that running off the battery alone you are not going to winch very far, I would be suprised if it would pull a land cruiser up and out of a river, but as you corectly state, "that is what mates are for"
Peter.

An electric winch is still going to winch you further out of a river than a hydraulic or pto when your cruiser isn't running!

The Fish wrote:An electric winch is still going to winch you further out of a river than a hydraulic or pto when your cruiser isn't running!

and thats the end of that chapter.

So you are closer to the bank, your motor is still stuffed and now your battery is flat as well,
Sounds like a plan to me.
Peter.

what about them specially made winches that run off kryptonite

AnthonyP wrote::? what about them specially made winches that run off kryptonite

Thats probably the only thing that would solve all the problems
except that Kryptonote will make your testicles glow in the dark
Peter.

How about a 'portable' hydraulic winch that runs off an electric pump that is powered by a generator.

That way the electric winch freaks are happy, the hydraulic winch freaks are happy and the portable winch freaks are happy......the only people who are not happy and the hand winch people, but then again by the time you loug all the shit out of the back of the car and over to the bank you will be too stuffed to use the hand winch anyway.

Greg

A12 wrote:How about a 'portable' hydraulic winch that runs off an electric pump that is powered by a generator.

That way the electric winch freaks are happy, the hydraulic winch freaks are happy and the portable winch freaks are happy......the only people who are not happy and the hand winch people, but then again by the time you loug all the shit out of the back of the car and over to the bank you will be too stuffed to use the hand winch anyway.

Greg

or

a portable hydraulic winch driven by a electric hydraulic pump powered by a PTO generator!

Ultimate winch dreaming......

a light (plasma rope), portable (carried in one hand), powerful (9000lb) winch where the winch is on the other end, not the car end, which has its own power and spool, runs for 15 mins and can attach to the car anywhere

this might sound insane - how much power does a medium sized chainsaw make? surely a small 2-stroke can produce as much power as a bettery?

just rambling....

or power it with one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisoto ... _generator

oh yeah

WHAT ABOUT A HAND WINCH. PULLS FORWARD BACKWARDS SIDWAYS OR WHATEVER. IF YOU DONT COMPETE MIGHT BE A BETTER OPTION.

my dads car has a winch and no snorkel-he never has the need for a snorkel and thinks they look crap, as he says you only need a snorkel if you intend on driving the car through rediculously deep water

HiPo Electric winchs are good, but a well setup HYD will always out perform in comp use, the usual argument that if the motor isn't running then no winch doesn't really cut it in a comp situation as, if the motor aint runnin them you prolly just lost that stage!

I had a bit to do with the setup on Bill Lynns winch challenge car & his hydro Ox flies. But he is too tight to get the right pump, if you compare prices of a fully modified DC vs a Full comp Hydro they would be fairly similar. A big key is getting the right pump , a HP controlled variable displacement bent axis piston pump aint cheap! but then you could always steal one from the front of a concrete truck

That allows massive line speed under no load, and backs off the swash plate to increase pressure and decrease flow under big loads while maintaing the same HP draw.

droopypete wrote:

twinnie wrote:i the idear of pulling your self along flat ground is just stupid thats what mates are for. i am kind of informed you see


Matt

Mat I sould have said "and just how far is an electric winch going to pull you on level ground, let alone when it is stuck in the middle of a river"
my point is that running off the battery alone you are not going to winch very far, I would be suprised if it would pull a land cruiser up and out of a river, but as you corectly state, "that is what mates are for"
Peter.

Pete if your battery was not a BigJim Lantern battery its suprising how far and for how long you can winch on real batteries with out the engine running. Ive developed a solar cell that runs the winch but at night i shine the Hella DID'S at the solar cell and the winch screams.

Wally

My secondry backup is ive got a push bike cranks connected to a alternator under the dash for the navigator to pedal, if the HID's go dim and the winch slows down it brightens up the lights and off goes the winch

Wally

Why don't you go for the best of both worlds....... Bamford and Smith made a electric/hyd winch..... had both hyd and electic drive on the winch with a pto hyd pump supplying the hyd drive. I think the Smithy bus had it on like 5 years ago...... Something to think about

Quote:
Your right Stuee, A PTO winch works off the vehicle drivetrain. Normally, you have transfer case in neutral, enguage the PTO drive (Pull/push lever or knob) then put gearbox in gear, start motor and winch away.
This answers Grazzas original question. PTO winches can be either slow or fast, It depends on what gear you are in. I use first or second for winching, and 5th for cable recovery.


this is true for a Landcruiser or any vehicle where the PTO is driven off the transfer case but not for a Nissan where it is driven off the gearbox

Mine drives off the transfer and can be run in hi low or neutral and its a nissan

I have a GQ SWB with a 8000lb PTO winch.
How it works, it uses the nissan PTO output off the front of the gearbox. Then has a un-balanced shaft (in my case it is unbalanced - need to fixx that) to the winch. And the winch drum is driven by a worm drive. The shear pin is on the last uni-joint before the winch.
On Nissans there is only 2 selectable speeds (not taking into account engine revs) which are FWD's and REV's. Thats it.
On Nissans you can still drive the wheels via what ever gear you want (1st or 2nd low - the rest are two fast for most stuff).

Not sure of the line speed, but compared to a elec when there is no load it is slow. But load them both upto 7500lb (approx) and my PTO will be winch 10 times as fast.

As for breaking Shear pins, this is one thing I am very much worried about as a do alot of driving by myself. But there is an answer for this to. I am not sure of the cost, but there is a clutch setup that can be purchased from PowerAuto (there is one in dandenong). This can be adjusted to what ever load you want it to start slipping. Most causes of Shear pin failure are more due to people side stepping the clutch and shock loading the pin, than actually overloading them.


As for the argument about 'what if the car is stalled' yes it want work but there is a hand crank. Also I have never seen a comp car not running even when it is under water.

Also if the motor does get water in it and want start, the car will be a write off and it might as well get washed down stream.

Why is it people don't just carry extra shear pins?

How hard are they to change?

Utemad wrote:Why is it people don't just carry extra shear pins?

How hard are they to change?

I do carry extra shear pins. The problem is that they arnt the easiest thing to change. In my case if I am winching thru a bog hole and it breaks the bash plat needs to come off. Then I need to find the uni and take whats left of the old pin out. Which can be hard as they usually burr over abit and dont just fall out (best way I found was line the holes up and use the drill to de-burr it then they almost fall out). Then put new pin in and wrap the uni in tape (cos there aint enough room to swing a hammr and put it in properly).

Also unless you can access the hand winder (on my current bash plate design I cant) you cant take the load of the winch. So all this fixing has to be done under load, unless you can turn the worm drive by hand (dont know how hard this would be never tried).
Its that or get somone else to winch you forward enough so you can unload the cable or you hide behind the tree and put the axe thru the tree trunk protecter.

hmmmm changing shear pins sounds like too much hard work to me.

hmmmm changing shear pins sounds like too much hard work to me.

i'd reckon it might be easier than changeing a burnt out motor in an electric winch!

Changing a motor on a high mount aint that hard, especially if you have relocated the solenoid pack!!!