Fastest winch

Post by **grazza** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:56 pm

Hi,
I am looking for a winch which initially will not be used for competition. Having just looked at impressive performance of the PTO (or hydraulic?) winches being used on the 2004 Outback Challenge DVD I was looking for some opinions from people who have winches.

I always assumed that PTO winches were slow compared to electric but you should see the speed the NZ Hilux and a Rangie get from their's. What the?

I have mates with electric winches and it seems they have a few problems and quite a bit of maintenance.

Any advice?

Post by **bogged** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:43 pm

grazza wrote:and quite a bit of maintenance.

Any advice?

they all need maintenance...

Post by **Woop** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:56 pm

The WARN Industrial range in hydraulic, although expensive, seems to work very well--i believe this is what Roger Smith uses on his truck on the OBC. For Hydraulic to work well it really needs a P.T.O driven pump of suitable capacity and at least a 10l min tank . Placement of the tank can be difficult in a wagon--not so much of a problem in a tray or ute. Hydraulic can be $$$ as hose and fittings are expensive. Also need to find space for an oil cooler as well.

Nick

Post by **MissDrew** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:40 pm

PTO is the go, as long as the drive shaft for the PTO is balanced then you can go 5th gear and just stand on it :shock:

Daz has this on his 40 and you should see the look on peoples faces when you say up it 4 times and he then pulls 5th gear while winching

Post by **Tojo** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:45 pm

I have to agree with Guts. Just remember that PTO's are not available for all vehicles. The majority of people tend to favour heavily modified electric winches for some reason

Post by **grazza** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:51 pm

thanks for that

so should I assume electric hydraulic pumps would be slow compared to PTO?

I ask because I believe the electric pumps dont draw a lot of current compared to electric winches.

I have a manual GQ and I think these have a PTO on the transfer case.

How would a mechanical PTO compare to a hydraulic winch?

Post by **MissDrew** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:06 pm

I only know of 2 fast hydro winches roger smiths and niel cooper and both of them are modified and cost a few $$$$ to setup.

Electrical winches are just easy to setup and can go on any rig

There is a big myth that with a PTO winch you can not winch and drive at the same time, which is NOT the case you can it just takes a bit more to match the line speed with the ground speed.

Post by **MYTTUF** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:20 pm

Just out of interest...... What is the best remedy for the sheer pin breaking issue as we have a few PTO's in the club and they are regularly busting them, mostly when they're stuck, and it seems to be a near impossible task to fix them. Are these blokes doing something wrong? as its frustrating when another member has to recover them when they bust.

Post by **MissDrew** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:27 pm

Daz could tell ya but I think he has put a stronger bolt though it and as long as you only run 8mm cable like on high mounts the cable will break before anything else would, just like an elec winch.

Post by **MYTTUF** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:41 pm

I'll pass that on as its annoying when it happens. I think one bloke did that and it's better, but another just keeps busting them.

Post by **bazzle** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:52 am

IMO
Most blokes only need an electric winch as it is hardly used.
Speed of the new warns is better than the old high mounts. The fast (competition) hydros cost a lot of money and need more parts than a PTO or electric..
Shear pins or cables breaking is just overloading for that part, period.
Using stronger materials for pin will only make the next part break, ie cable (which can take your head or leg off) or the gears/case in the PTO.
Fibre filled pto cables are generally weaker too.
If they are constantly breaking pins then their methods need looking at ie, use of a snatch block, slower engine speed etc.

Bazzle

Post by **dow50r** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:48 am

Gday
Whilst electrics will stall, the PTO wont. Thats why the shear pin is there...most of the time, you need to assist them by putting it into 4 lo or you will start winching the rock up hill...been there...lucky i could drive out from there with my broken shear pin.
Andrew
94 fzj80/auto/pto

Post by **Snatchy** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:06 am

I think hydraulic winches are the go. cost and the trouble getting all the bits to fit it to the vehicle are the main disadvantages.

When an electric overloads the motor stalls with possible burn out
when a PTO overloads the shear pin breaks
when a hydraulic overloads the relief valve works with no damage to anything.

since Hydraulics are used in almost every bit of heavy machinery there are plenty of bits around to set it up. Getting one on a 4wd is effectivly getting a custom set up, hence the cost.(ignoring the OX hydraulic winch, im talking about the ones with their own dedicated pump)

Post by **Daisy** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:25 am

a while back in 4wd monthly there was an electric hydraulic winch :?:

consisted of electric motor running a hydraulic pump which in turn ran the winch eliminating the need for the motor to be running if it carked it.

Any info on that one??

TOM

Post by **J Top** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:38 am

GQ's PTO is on the gearbox not the transfercase.
After a certain year,maybe1996?,there is no longer a removable PTO cover on the g/box,just a rough-cast flat,which we have machined off and had drilled a few times to fit PTO's to the later boxes.
From experiance,you will not get away with no shear pin in the GQ
as they,
Take teeth off the PTO
Wind up the axle through the centre of the winch
Punch the worm out through the front of the winch.
Also the oil in the GQ winch is a special,600weight?,to take the extreme pressure but not attack the bronze like an EP oil.
We managed to source it from the local stream train enthusiasts.
J Top

Post by **Bush65** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:14 am

GQ wrote:a while back in 4wd monthly there was an electric hydraulic winch

consisted of electric motor running a hydraulic pump which in turn ran the winch eliminating the need for the motor to be running if it carked it.

Any info on that one??

TOM

Cut Snake winch from http://www.varsitor.com/index.htm

Post by **grazza** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:21 am

Looked at the Cut Snake Winch - looks impressive but would 6000lb be enough for a GQ shorty?
I like the mention that external tools/jack can be hooked up to it - push a button to jack your car up? Run some sort of hydraulic high-mount jack/ram maybe? Could be messy with fluid/cables but I dont have any hydraulic fluid experience, maybe just plug-it-in and open a valve? Got me thinking...

Post by **Daisy** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:08 pm

grazza wrote:Looked at the Cut Snake Winch - looks impressive but would 6000lb be enough for a GQ shorty?
I like the mention that external tools/jack can be hooked up to it - push a button to jack your car up? Run some sort of hydraulic high-mount jack/ram maybe? Could be messy with fluid/cables but I dont have any hydraulic fluid experience, maybe just plug-it-in and open a valve? Got me thinking...

prolly not.. 8000 is pretty much the minimum.

Also i read on the cut snake one - they make custom ones.. so might be worth your while chasing them up on that option??

Let us know how u went if you do go down that path prices etc..

TOM

Post by **Utemad** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:54 pm

I have a 10 000lb Hydraulic Ox on my 97 Rodeo. I have been told you can get an electric pump to run them instead of using a motor driven one.

Post by **grazza** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:16 pm

that would be good since the Cut Snake winch is around $4000 - way too much for my casual use...

Post by **Utemad** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:26 pm

The Ox on my ute is slow as. It does speed up with some revs on board though since I run mine from the power steering pump.

However mine only cost me about $210 for the hoses. Was leftovers from an engineering job.

Post by **grazza** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:10 pm

I wonder if they can be speeded up, with a electric or PTO pump creating a higher pressure than the power steer pump, and/or change winch gearing.
There must be second hand pumps available from industrial use...

Post by **Shadow** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:06 pm

could just run a bigger power steer pump

trucks would have biggens sureley

Post by **twinnie** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:41 pm

the prob with pto and engine driven hydro's is if you hydrolic it or stall for some reason or other then youre stuffed.

Matt

Post by **J Top** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:14 am

It's not only pressure but volume that is required.
As already stated you need at least 10 litres and an oil cooler as well as a bigger pump.
How long / far will your battery pull your dead weight if your motors dead.
Thats if the crappy solenoids have not clapped out again on your electric winch

Post by **stuee** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:04 am

just out of curiosity, do the pto whinches work even when you're out of gear. I know in our landy the pto is on the transfer case so I assume if your gearbox is is neutral then your pto would not function. Is this the case or have I got it all wrong?

(I wouldn't now cause I'm stuck with a hand whinch :cry:

)

Post by **DiscoDino** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:29 am

Personal opinion goes for the hi-ont with the new 6hp motors and 2 Optimas at least. But that is just my personal opinion

Post by **droopypete** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:59 am

twinnie wrote:the prob with pto and engine driven hydro's is if you hydrolic it or stall for some reason or other then youre stuffed.

Matt

I always love this argument, if you are out in the bush and you have blown up your motor, being bogged is very low in your list of problems, and just how far is an electric winch going to pull you on level ground, if it is running only on the battery without the engine running?

i don't mean to unload on you Matt, but having had PTO and electric winches from 6000 to 10,000 pound, and love them both for diferent reasons I find that argument a bit ilinformed

Peter.

Post by **BundyRumandCoke** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:53 am

Your right Stuee, A PTO winch works off the vehicle drivetrain. Normally, you have transfer case in neutral, enguage the PTO drive (Pull/push lever or knob) then put gearbox in gear, start motor and winch away.
This answers Grazzas original question. PTO winches can be either slow or fast, It depends on what gear you are in. I use first or second for winching, and 5th for cable recovery.
You can winch and drive at the same time, by having the transfer case in L4 or H4 as well as the PTO enguaged.

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:18 am

I always thought factory PTO's are not rated as highly as say a Warn winch for a given vehicle.
I saw a old Tojo (BJ40 ??) with a factory PTO trying to winch my mates 4 Runner up Dingo Hill in the high country and it cooked it's fluid squirting it out of the breather :shock:

I've got a 9000lb low mount on the Jabber never had a rating problem (Warn recommend a 8000lb) the only complaint is line speed.

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