Outer Limits 4x4 Board

walker wrote:Did you see the Top Gear episode where they drove a diesel Ford Transit van around the Nurburgring in 10 minutes (very fast). They had a specialist race driver and were passing Porsches and motorbikes in a van.

prob had nothing in it... these guys carry some gear!!

Yes, they pulled everything out they could find.

we get em at work every day fucked rooted timeing chains mostly. and shit clutches

I find some folk's attitude to all this a bit bemusing.

How many people on this forum could actually afford to buy a new Defender? Sure as hell not me and I would hazard a guess and say that that goes for about 80% of us. Therefore why the hell would the marketing and accounts big wigs at land rover aim the vehicle at enthusiasts?

For instance - why should they keep the heavy (and possible more expensive to manufacture/buy in) duty Salisbury diff? The fact is that the standard rover 3.54 is stronger than standard 24 spline axles. Therefore it is not required and can be cut to save production costs. This is JUST AN EXAMPLE. Unless the hand built Defender is profitable to build (and it isn't particularly) then they can't keep making them.

Why is the good ole Td5 being replaced? Simple - doesn't meet new Euro emissions standards. BFD. The new engine has more torque anyway. I also expect that any problems with the Transit engine will be sorted during its lifetime. In fact I think a Transit is the ideal test bed for an engine. It'll spend its whole life being over revved and over loaded in a used and abused builder's truck. Good proving ground for a Defender engine. The new TDV8 would be great in the Defender - but it would cost more, be more complicated and would require the whole drivetrain and suspension/handling to be upgraded.

Sorry about the rant, but this is the real world. Land Rover have undoubtedly skimped on the Defender for a very long time, but at least they are still building it.

Seamus

So why is the 90 stationwagon longer than the 90 pick up????????

JF

i would also guess the change in engines is because the td5 is no longer used in anything but the defender.... so using another engine from there vehicle range (ford/landrover) makes financial sense.

i'm sure that bigger exhausts, chips and intercoolers will come onto the seen quickly. and make quite a difference to the engine as it has with tdi's and td5's

i feel the defender could be a bit wider, say 150mm. longer front doors say 100mm. keep the short bonet. push the front axle foward about 25mm
move the engine gearbox back 150mm

if they had good diffs say a hi pinion 9 inch hypoid they could use them front and rear, cutting costs on having different diff for the backs of the 110's,

if they looked at what most people want to do to these for serious off/roading and design it as a good base... ie; making spindels/axle housings big enough to fit a 35spline axle in, but just sell it with 24 or 30 spline.

if they combined the rear trailing arm mount with the body outrigger the arms would be up out of the way and help the suspension dynamic, while reducing one extra fabrication for the chassis

offer a dead basic trim level based around the s11a dash but moden. this would be great for farmers and the milartary... and have a drop in dash like the new one for other trim levels..

keep a good transfer case design like the lt230 and keep pto option

UPGRADE WITH A WHOLE NEW WIRING DESIGN....CAN YOU SAY RELAY'S

i'm sure if they spent a little on r&d they coud produce the above for a similar cost. there mind set is to be stuck in the "don't change it unless it sticks on with glue....because it will cost too much"

well it will never happen

serg

james feeney wrote:So why is the 90 stationwagon longer than the 90 pick up????????

JF

Spare tyre on the rear door.

1tonsoup wrote:I find some folk's attitude to all this a bit bemusing.

How many people on this forum could actually afford to buy a new Defender? Sure as hell not me and I would hazard a guess and say that that goes for about 80% of us. Therefore why the hell would the marketing and accounts big wigs at land rover aim the vehicle at enthusiasts?

For instance - why should they keep the heavy (and possible more expensive to manufacture/buy in) duty Salisbury diff? The fact is that the standard rover 3.54 is stronger than standard 24 spline axles. Therefore it is not required and can be cut to save production costs. This is JUST AN EXAMPLE. Unless the hand built Defender is profitable to build (and it isn't particularly) then they can't keep making them.

Why is the good ole Td5 being replaced? Simple - doesn't meet new Euro emissions standards. BFD. The new engine has more torque anyway. I also expect that any problems with the Transit engine will be sorted during its lifetime. In fact I think a Transit is the ideal test bed for an engine. It'll spend its whole life being over revved and over loaded in a used and abused builder's truck. Good proving ground for a Defender engine. The new TDV8 would be great in the Defender - but it would cost more, be more complicated and would require the whole drivetrain and suspension/handling to be upgraded.

Sorry about the rant, but this is the real world. Land Rover have undoubtedly skimped on the Defender for a very long time, but at least they are still building it.

Seamus

if you lived here and saw first hand the defenders compition you would know why we ask for strong driveline. the poms still havent been taken over by the jappers like we have and the answer is simple strong diffs strong axels. the gearboxes have been ok and so have the engines except timeing belts but the nissan grenaid is worse.

Some "official" pics here:

http://motori.alice.it/Auto/Magazine/Pr ... tml?mmc=49

uninformed wrote:6 speed manual, 62-1 low range (1st). axles, cv's and diffs will be so much easier to break....yay

i wonder if they still use the lt230 transfer case.

the engine sounds ok to me

serg

Maybe they have finally ditched the spiral bevel diffs??? - we can only hope...

Hope the LT230 has been kept on - ratios are about the same. At least the 6-speed sounds interesting, wonder if it can hold up behind a 4BD1...

Michele wrote:Some "official" pics here:

http://motori.alice.it/Auto/Magazine/Pr ... tml?mmc=49

look at the extreme off road pics

I'm pretty sure the t-case is still the LT-230 but with 1.2 high range. Unfortunately it is probably the LT-230Q (quiet) gears from the Disco II which according to Bill/daddylonglegs are not as stout as the older gears. I'm also pretty sure it is still Rover diffs front and rear with P38 on the 110/130 rear. Like I said above - why would they change?

if they looked at what most people want to do to these for serious off/roading and design it as a good base... ie; making spindels/axle housings big enough to fit a 35spline axle in, but just sell it with 24 or 30 spline.

I would have to disagree slightly with you Serg.
The point I was trying to make before was that most people that can afford to buy new Defenders don't have any desire or need to fit 35" tyres and diff locks. So Land Rovers decision makers are not going to give you what you want! Land Rovers core market for the Defender, and the thing that is keeping production numbers reasonable at the moment is bulk buys from the likes of utility co.s, police forces, Red Cross etc. etc. What do they need with a 35 spline ready hubs and spindles?! At best some of them will upgrade to rear MD axles but no more than that.

460cixy - I know what you mean about the Patrols and Cruisers as competition. The simple fact is that Nissan and Toyota don't, and never will again offer the kind of base spec utility off road vehicles that they do in Oz to the likes of the UK and US. I too think that this is the market that LR should be aiming at. Sad to say however that if we ever do get an all new Defender it's going to be aimed at the gold mine that is the good ole USA. LR know they can make a mint if they offer the US a new Def.

As a counterpoint, the production of the vehicles that do break when used hard does affect the reputation which eventually affects the sales.

If they made a proper, sturdy quality off road vehicle, people would be using them in competetions without breaking them. This in turn becomes a huge source of very good advertising for all of the LR models. When the general public see a Defender doing what is unimaginable to them and making it out alive....then they just have to get an LR3.

You should see how well the Rubicons sell over here. I personally know 3 people with them that have never been off road in their lifes. All for the image and the "what if I need it" mentallity. If they could fix up the shortcomings, make the cabin more user friendly and sell at the level of the Rubicon prices, they would be selling they in the hundreds of thousands.

Are the mining industry and other 'rough' industries ever taken into account in designing utility 4wds or is the market to small. I know that currently a lot of mines are looking for alternatives to the current cruisers because their getting weaker and not lasting on site. I know where my old man works they do significant strengthening of the cruisers before they are used on their mine sites and they still get flogged out quite rapidly. Patrols have been considered but apparently the spares support is usless and does not look like improving. I'm sure if a stong enough vehicle was designed and sold at a good price with aftermarket parts support it would be a hit Australia wide... Just my 2c.

Around this part of the world, they take F350s or the like and give them to a 4WD specialist to beef up. They'll thouw $80k into them to make them tough enough to handle the abuse.....