Is wheel travel overated???

[SAWZALL]

Well, I posted this on Pirate a while ago and now I'd like to get an Aussie viewpoint. We brushed upon it in a Strangerover post. Two of the best rockcrawlers I have seen have had limited wheel travel (Tim Hardy's Zuk and Currie Jeep)

Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns???????????

[POS]

Well, I posted this on Pirate a while ago and now I'd like to get an Aussie viewpoint. We brushed upon it in a Strangerover post. Two of the best rockcrawlers I have seen have had limited wheel travel (Tim Hardy's Zuk and Currie Jeep)

Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns???????????

Tim Hardys Zuk is hardly a Rockcrawler let alone one of the best!!

And the Fireant is really Last years technology!

But you are right about wheel travel been overated!

All the Top US guys have gone threw the stage of huge flex and a equally unstable rig to go with it, now (mainly due to the courses they are running) they have realised that adequate wheel travel is important but there are heaps more factors!!! Surprising enough that there are still guys in OZ that think huge wheel travel is important.

[SAWZALL]

Shows how long I've been out of the "scene" for. I was only going off rigs that I have seen (or driven in Tims case) in action in person.

[christover1]

wheel travel can = body roll in some cicumstances, leading to instability. also unless wheel is loaded, it aint really driving. so my thawt is, keep a decent flex, just not a huge flex (tho it can look fantastic).. just a novices opinion, I need lots more practical experiences. christover

[MY45]

realised that adequate wheel travel is important

Now the next question is what is "adequate" wheel travel...........what are most people's 20* RTI scores. I can ramp just over 1000 on a 20* ramp and i find that to be a nice balance betwen flex and height and body roll.

*My truck is a landcruiser so has a decent width though*

[glenxr650]

In my inexperienced view, I agree that wheel travel is over rated. The reason being that with LSDs, lock diffs, modern 4WD traction control etc. their is only need three wheels to touch the ground. And only two need to be loaded. Of course rock crawling might be a different story, but with traction control (or locked drive line) and good ground clearance, wheel travel hasn't got much to do with it.

Lots of people have called IFS 4WDs "going soft" (ie. 100 series), but I think that because of the above mentioned, and improved on road handling, it's a good move.
Glen.

[fatassgq]

That is the most important question of all MY45.
End of the day why is everyone so keen on following other peoples ideas and so called 'trends' etc, when if they use some brain power of their own they can find a rig set up that FEELS RIGHT FOR THEM AND THE CONDITIONS THEY DRIVE. While this may take some time and $ over the long run it is all part of the challenge/fun. Like you said with your rig, 'I find this to be a good balance...'

Limited wheel travel to a tuff truck challenge vehicle driver (dobbins, cheesy, etc etc even that wild violet rangie) could be hugely different to a weekender who just goes out to have a bit of fun here and there.

IMHO I think that having a set up that feels good to drive for yourself is more important than anything else. As far as your run of the mill coil or even reasonably modded leaf spring set ups go I don't think you have to seriously worry about having too much travel. Without some decent travel you are going to have a vehicle with as much stability problems as one with lots of travel. Stay off the sheep trail and do ya own thing.

PS. not sure if the pic christover posted goes with what he was saying as it seems to be demonstrating a distinct lack of travel leading to picking a wheel up and being in a very unstable spot?

[Wooders]

What amazes me is the number of people both here & US that do massive lifts to clear relatively small lifts.....
Nearly every issue of 4wdM you see POatrols etc with 7" lift and only 35's.... Ok I have 4½" Susp & 2"bL to fit 35's on my TJ, but if /when I redo it I'll have half that amount of lift to fit as big or bigger tyres.

Then regarding flex - IMHO 1000 on a 20° ramp is a nice area....then lockers and low COG and then fous on the rest of the suspension geometery to ensure you';re getting the pwoer down as effectively as possible...

[Area54]

Suspension flex overrated - hell yeah. Suspension is just one part of the overall picture, too many people are caught up on how to mod their truck to make it 'better and more capable on the trail' than spending the time learning how to drive the vehicle they have. There will always be leaders in advancing the engineering scope of what a vehicle can do, and these vehicles do have their place in the upper eschelon of the comp scene. Most people have mods they don't even need, they just do them or have them done because they feel they need to just to keep up with the crowd. I guess that just human nature and you won't ever change that, I just think it's real funny when a good driver in a basic, yet strong machine, can outdrive a poser in a built rig...

[V8Patrol]

With what you are "ramping" at, you should be happy with the flex/travel you have.

Alot of the ppl in this forum have done some trick tracks with the bare minimum of mods, basically a body lift ( for larger tyres to clear guards), tyres, ( more open tread with sidewall lugs etc), suspension lift ( improved ground clearence),& difflocks (total traction control), with these simple mods most of the dificult sections we attempt/experiance are made easier.

Allways been a firm beliver that having 500 horsepower under the bonnet is usless if only 200 gets to the ground, better off with 200 horses and 200 of that hitting the dirt, flex/travel is much the same, sure you can make it "out of this world" but is the tyre that's right on the outer edge of the tread when its fully flexed really helping put that power to use?

[Wendle]

i think the key is to have a vehicle that will articulate without sacrificing roll stiffness, and can get the power to the ground in a predictable, controlled manner.

[OVERKILL ENG]

i think the key is to have a vehicle that will articulate without sacrificing roll stiffness, and can get the power to the ground in a predictable, controlled manner.

I think carlton has hit the naill on the head. More thought is going into the way we setup rigs to work rather than look good.
SAM

[greg]

What amazes me is the number of people both here & US that do massive lifts to clear relatively small lifts.....
Nearly every issue of 4wdM you see POatrols etc with 7" lift and only 35's....

I don't understand this type of setup either - why are these patrols up so high? Do they warrant it with up travel that forces the wheels up that far into those guards?


Edit - corrected english.

[planb]

In my inexperienced view, I agree that wheel travel is over rated. The reason being that with LSDs, lock diffs, modern 4WD traction control etc. their is only need three wheels to touch the ground. And only two need to be loaded. Of course rock crawling might be a different story, but with traction control (or locked drive line) and good ground clearance, wheel travel hasn't got much to do with it.

Lots of people have called IFS 4WDs "going soft" (ie. 100 series), but I think that because of the above mentioned, and improved on road handling, it's a good move.
Glen.

what about the benefits of 4 wheels providing traction, not 3 ?

isnt traction what it's all about ?

[Leprecaun]

Traction is what its about and in most cases the roughest terrain most will encounter will have two wheels off at any time with a controllable amount of power being fed to those wheels. You are in a 4WD the idea is to have power to all 4 wheels in case you traction to one or more wheels, unlike a normal vehicle of two wheel power. To have a massive lift is silly when you turn your nice 4wd into the equivelent of a tumble dryer. Some Flex for wheel travel is good though, but like everything there are limits.

[Leprecaun]

Dohhh in case you lose traction that is

[POS]

In my inexperienced view, I agree that wheel travel is over rated. The reason being that with LSDs, lock diffs, modern 4WD traction control etc. their is only need three wheels to touch the ground. And only two need to be loaded. Of course rock crawling might be a different story, but with traction control (or locked drive line) and good ground clearance, wheel travel hasn't got much to do with it.

Lots of people have called IFS 4WDs "going soft" (ie. 100 series), but I think that because of the above mentioned, and improved on road handling, it's a good move.
Glen.

what about the benefits of 4 wheels providing traction, not 3 ?

isnt traction what it's all about ?

Most certainly TRACTION is what Most of its about!!!

But there is Little point having a wheel still on the ground if there is little contact pressure.

What i am trying to say is there comes a point of when to much Flex creates a MORE UNSTABLE rig rather than a well controlled set-up!!

Every rig that i have seen that has SUPER wheel travel (there was some in last years TTC) works well over FLAT undulating ROCKS, however when possed with a SIDE SLOP or Verticle climb/drop they twist and fall over!!!

Same goes for something with NO FLEX, it will work quite well on climbs (hence one of the reason for flexy rigs winching down the front axle) however in the situation of undulating (sp) boulders it would not stand a chance.

This is why a HAPPY medium needs to be found!!!

As stated earlier this "Happy medium" for one rig will be different to another, also what one driver feels Comfortable with (as in body roll and stiffness) will be different to another!!

I have seen a Rig FALL over and its REAR wheels briefly stayed on the GROUND!!! Yes it had HUGE travel but it didn't help in this case. In the same spot numerous other rigs with slightly Less wheel travel lifted a wheel (just) and drove threw it!!! To have HUGE wheel travel like that you also comprimise body stability!!!

[christover1]

PS. not sure if the pic christover posted goes with what he was saying as it seems to be demonstrating a distinct lack of travel leading to picking a wheel up and being in a very unstable spot?

it was a very scary spot to be in, but made it safely on all 4. gearing would have been more useful, here, so I could have picked a nicer line. more droop could be nice, as long as its forced travel, not expander droopy type travel. but the roll stiffness of the down side helped with stability...theres always going to be a situation that dont work sometimes.

[Strange Rover]

The amount of flex you should have really depends on what sort of terrain you drive.

IMO you should have the bare minimum that you can get away with and build in as low a cog and as much stability as you can get.

Generally for the sort of terrain that I drive my rig really does have too much flex (it ramps about 1100 on a 20 degree but it is fairly long (112in WB) and fairly wide 2300 outside to outside). I have probably only ran out of flex on two occasions that I can remember - once at the last xrcc and once at the outerlimits weekend but in both instances it easily drove on three wheels.

IMO most instances of tyre lifting is more due to body roll or anti squat problems at much lower articulation levels. Very rarely do I find that the suspension is maxed out causing wheel lifting on level ground. It is generally on offcamber stuff and steep climbs that articulation problems happen and this is usually at articulation levels much lower than say 1000 on a 20 degree ramp.

Sam

[MissDrew]

Even a super flexy rig (dobbins) can lift a wheel in the air while under power (due to torque) where normally even a mid flex rig could still have all 4 on the ground if going slow and not under much torque.

Have a look at dobbins rig in woodpecker last year on the boat ramp while under torque had front in air but this spot wasn`t a spot that was that uneven.


Does that make sense


But anyway I to agree that you only need what you are happy with. I am happy with the way my lux flexs and I am not chasing anymore flex out of it as it suits me with what I drive and want it to do. If anything I am limiting up travel so that I can go faster

[SAWZALL]

Nice feedback!

I think that a competent rig probably needs to be around 1000 on a 20 but the important things are low COG, gearing, anti squat and correct sized tyres for the wheelbase....

My 2 cents

[hotrod4x4]

i kno some of u guys arent from sydney , but if u r.....just have a look at what a good driver can do in a VERY basic setup....example.....JOHN JOHN from landcruiser club , and also allterrain club

how many events has he won or done extremely well at

and the truck has bugger all flex

its often driver ability and knowledge of his own rig

but personally....i still like a bit of travel....much more than john john

[christover1]

I'm testing a stiffer spring on the rear right theory, not only is my 110kg on the drivers side, but also my petrol tank and spare, added to the torque twist that is at that point...seems to work ok so far, much more stable up hills and under acceleration, not that a 1.3 zook can actually accelerate, doesnt lift the front left wheel so much, now, christover

[chimpboy]

I am a relative newbie but have already gotten the impression that flex is overrated - important but not as important as people think.

And I do agree that there's not much traction gained by having a wheel just touching the ground at full droop. However it does seem to me that having heaps of flex serves another purpose besides traction, and that is to help keep the cabin level. Keeping the cabin level keeps your roof above your wheels, and keeping your roof above your wheels prevents you from falling on your side.

Just a thought.

Jason

[Bitsamissin]

Hmmmm I reckon usable flex is the go.................
All depends on the type of terrain you drive.
Always excepting comp vehicles for stability, in the real world lockers, tyres and clearance will get you further than heaps of wheel travel.
But those massive spring lifts do make me laugh, rollovers waiting to happen...................

[Beastmavster]

I am a relative newbie but have already gotten the impression that flex is overrated - important but not as important as people think.

And I do agree that there's not much traction gained by having a wheel just touching the ground at full droop. However it does seem to me that having heaps of flex serves another purpose besides traction, and that is to help keep the cabin level. Keeping the cabin level keeps your roof above your wheels, and keeping your roof above your wheels prevents you from falling on your side.
Jason

This may be based on seeing my Vitara in action - the IFS doesnt have that much flex, but it doesnt seem to slow it down much. The flexy back with the CIG does help....

The main reason I would like to get a live axle front on mine is to allow the front to move more so that the whole cabin to tilt to get a three point connection with the ground.....

Thie is the biggest "fear factor" I have - especially with the SWB and soft-top (with no rollbar). I have come close to rolling enough times to know instinctively it isn't a good move

[stumped]

how 'bout drop-shackles? they give you an extra few inches of droop which i suppose classifies as flex. are you likely to get any traction from the wheel that's dropped cos of those shackles, or will the weight be too little?

i guess there's the advantage of keeping the body more level??

[Beastmavster]

how 'bout drop-shackles? they give you an extra few inches of droop which i suppose classifies as flex. are you likely to get any traction from the wheel that's dropped cos of those shackles, or will the weight be too little?

i guess there's the advantage of keeping the body more level??

Little traction I would think as there is only the minimal effect of gravity on the components actually able to move that inch or two...

The stability issue though would be good.

There's an idea for drop shackle manufacturing... spring loaded drop shackles.... Need to get the spring rate such that it would enable additional force to be effected for traction purposes but not when the shackle is under load from the weigh tof the vehicle.

Custom spring rate for each applicaction obviously.

[-Mick-]

how 'bout drop-shackles? they give you an extra few inches of droop which i suppose classifies as flex. are you likely to get any traction from the wheel that's dropped cos of those shackles, or will the weight be too little?

i guess there's the advantage of keeping the body more level??

That's why I think they have their merits for medium wheeling but are not really suited for the harder stuff where controlled flex is critical. For ultra slow crawlin they seem ok to me.

I watched my mates lux run them, right over onto his roof as a matter of fact They were good for stability on most slow things but when he came to a bit of downhill (not hard either, camp road @ LCMP vomin down) he flopped on his side and over onto the roof

[POS]

how 'bout drop-shackles? they give you an extra few inches of droop which i suppose classifies as flex. are you likely to get any traction from the wheel that's dropped cos of those shackles, or will the weight be too little?

i guess there's the advantage of keeping the body more level??

That's why I think they have their merits for medium wheeling but are not really suited for the harder stuff where controlled flex is critical. For ultra slow crawlin they seem ok to me.

I watched my mates lux run them, right over onto his roof as a matter of fact They were good for stability on most slow things but when he came to a bit of downhill (not hard either, camp road @ LCMP vomin down) he flopped on his side and over onto the roof

Yup, seen that before with these type of shackles!! They UNLOAD uncontrolably and quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!