Busted CV?

[dank]

went out yesterday for an ANZAC Day run through Labertouche Powelltown area and drove a hardish section early in the day then had a lot of higher speed hill climbs later on in the day. i have a lockrite in the front and just before heading home the zook developed a clicking sound in the front passenger side wheel. It got worse as you turned the wheel either side of straight on. I drove it a little longer and it kept getting worse almost a knocking banging sort of sound. Had a look underneath and externally everything looked fine. I unlocked the hubs and drove and the noise stopped.

Is this likely to be a damaged CV Joint?

If it is where can I source a new one other than suzuki genuine parts and is it easy to replace?

cheers

[sierrajim]

Soulds like the CV, maybe the lockrite. Most likely the CV.

Either the wreckers (Suziworld 9459 8988) or 4 Play in Kilsyth (9761 4694)

[Gwagensteve]

A)Sounds like it
B)Suziworld in heidleberg
C) Shoudl take not more than an hour to replace either by removing the spindle and pulling in through or pulling the knuckle. If they are badly damaged they can be impossible to remove by removing the spindle - they won't fit through the hole.

****IMPORTANT SAFETY MESSAGE****

Broken CV's should ALWAYS be removed before the car is driven at all, even if you don't have a replacement. They frequently jam the steering regardless of whether the hub is locked or not.

This is becuse bits of broken bell jam between the remains of the bell and the knuckle.

Don't tkae the risk of driving home on a broken CV.

steve.

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Try out the wreckers for second hand one with low Kmls
or CBC bearings guys do them as well.

I would say it sounds like your CV though is there any drive to that wheel any more...? It may not be totally broken but still good to fix instead of being on trail when it does totally go. Its not really a hard Job doing this you just gotta be mechanically minded and take it slowly. You only really need a C clip pliers and basic tools too do it...? Have you done wheel bearings or other jobs on your 4by if so you should be fine. Recommend doing wheel bearings even axles bearings and seals if they have a bit of play thats if they haven't recently been done, you will have to strip it all right back anyway. I did a replacement for a mate on his sierra drivers side and it was quite quick but I have pulled the front diff and hubs down quite a lot so I'm getting pretty good.

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

Damn you beat me GwagenSteve.....

[dank]

Jim, Steve and Pig you all rock. Great Info. I have stripped axles to past the front wheel bearings before but not much further without playing with the knuckle so I dont think it'll be that hard.

Suziworld don't have any cvs/axles at the moment So i might try the wreckers and 4 play for a second hand one. I dont think its my lockrite as the noise is very much coming from the passenger side of the car and I'm sure it still had drive going to it when i unlocked the hubs on the trail yesterday, plus its only been in for about 4 trips.

Suziworld guys said i had to replace the whole passenger axle as the CV comes as part of it. Ã

[Gwagensteve]

Yep - the inner axle as clipped into the CV with a snap ring and is almost impossible to remove.

99% of the time the inner star fails and the noise you get is the inner axle jumping splines. This will ensure that the inner axle is well and truly stuffed.

I disagree with MudPigSierra only in that if you have noticable clicking noise from the CV iunder drive load with the wheels straight t means it is broken and needs replacement. A light knocking/clunking is sometimes evident under axle tramping or full lock and this indicates a worn CV.

If you kept steering on the trip home and didn't feel any gaunchiness in the steering it means the bell is still together, but it WILL be cracked.

90% of the time CV's fail with the wheels at hard lock, and ususally in reverse backing out of an obstacle. Normally they only fail straight ahead when the car is very jammed up and you have low gearing.

I may have been worn already but you lockright and added traction with the pedes will give you enough bite to break one now for sure.

Steve.

[dank]

well i stripped down the front axle assembly tonight and hey guess what?....broken CV/Barfield joint.

I managed to pull the axle out of the housing with some reasonable force and then while it was still covered in grease I was moving it around going...hang on theres nothing wrong with this joint...until...i wiped the grease off and had a closer look...1 open crack in outer housing 3/4 of the length of it...3 other serious stress fractures about to open up on the outer housing of the joint...on the centre section ring there is one visible crack all the way through the ring and no other visible damage...i'm lucky i took it out of 4x4 when I did otherwise I may not have made it home. I'm guessing the clicking noise that is was making was the larger crack knocking against the kingpin....correct me if i'm wrong...I'll try get pics up for peoples future refernce later in the week...off to the wreckers we go!

has anyone had any luck with barfield joint rings? are they worth it?

http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/samaxles.htm have them for a good price.... what do people think about these?

[Gwagensteve]

It is very difficult to tell without hearing the noise, but I owuld have thought the noise was due to the splines jumping or a loose ball knocking around. There is a lot of clearance between the CV an the kingpin bearings.

I am not a big fan of Birfield rings. They will stop the bell from spreading, but the cracks in the bell are only 1/2 the problem- the cage in the centre also breaks which forces the balls to jam, then breaking the bell.

I haven't thought about very hard, but my guess is that with the wheels straight ahead, the cage breaks, with the wheels turned, the bell breaks.

Rings will not eliminate cage breaking, and once the cage has gone, you have to throw the CV away, with the ring still on it.

It is also impossible to tell if they are working or not - you will never know if you would have broken a CV or not in a given situation.

I like Trail tough double tough axles as they are a massive in increase in both CV and axle strength. They are a big investment, but cheap for what they are. they also require a rear diff in the front.

Steve.

[Gwagensteve]

PS You might have missed/misunderstood my point - if you break a CV, ALWAYS pull it out right then and there. Taking it out of 4WD will not stop the steering jamming if there is a chunk of bell floating in the knuckle. You won't know this until it happens, and if it happens at speed.... well, it's beter not to think about it really.

It is safe to drive the car with a CV removed.

Steve.

[dank]

yeah i picked that up on your first thread steve but thanks for reinforcing it as I feel that its a very important lesson to learn for myself and other zookers out there that may get into my situation. Its also good to know that i was carrying all of the tools needed to remove the CV in my car at the time:

• -jack and jack winding rod.
  -block of wood
  -tyre iron
  -socket wrench and sockets in mm: 10, 12, 14 and 17 needed
  -circlip pliers or needle nose and flat head screw driver for hub circlip
  -hammer and screw driver to get bearing nut off - not the best way but effective. - hit it on edge to loosen nut.
  -tarp to keep parts clean

[Gwagensteve]

Sorry - no intention to offend - just wanted to make it very clear.

Sounds like you are doing the cv removalit the hard way Dank - There is no need to remove the bearings.

Procedure as follows:

Option 1

1)Jack the car and remove the wheel
2)Remove the 10mm head bolts retaining the FWH cover
3)Remove the circlip
4)undo the two 17mm bolts holding the caliper on, remove caliper and rest on spring.
5)Remove the rotor
6)undo the four 14mm bolts holding the spindle to the knuckle.
7)Pull the whole spindle/hub assembly in one hit
slide CV out.

If the break is bad, you won't be able to get the CV out through the knuckle Therefore:

Option 2
Do everything up to and including step 5 then:
Remove the 10mm bolts retaining the felt seal on the back of the knuckle
Remove both top and bottom kingpins (four 12mm bolts per kingpin cap)
Pull the knuckle off of the stub axle ( this is hard as the tie rod is a restriction - easier if the steering is turned hard towards the broken side)
pull the CV.

Option 1 takes not more than about 1/2 hour.
Option 2 a little longer, and is harder to put back together as the kingpin bearings keep falling in the mud.

I have done CV's in the rain, in 6" of mud, and 1 in the morning, only ever once in my workshop! It's never really been a big deal.

Tools - 10mm 12mm 17mm socket
Circlip piers and a flatblade screwdriver to get the circlip on/off
14mm ring spanner for the spindle bolts (socket or ratchet spanners don't fit)

Steve.

Steve.

[dank]

Sweet. Good info! I always end up doing things the hard way! This might be a worthy bible thread.....?

My socket wrench must be small as I easily undid everything including the spindle bolts with the wrench.

[nicbeer]

I have heard someone not putting the C clips on the axle when putting it back on?

makes it quicker or something. if this is tru does it hurt or bad for anything in there?

nic

[Gwagensteve]

Ifyou had the bearings off (therefore the hub off the spindle) then you can use a socket to get the spindle off the knuckle.

Getting onto the spindle bolts with the hub in place requires a ring spanner. An open end spanner will slip.

If the backing plate is removed, more room is available, but this then exposes the seal on the inside of the hub to more abuse from mud etc.

Steve.

[Zute]

Thanks guys , this is very nicely timed as I'm about to do mine. Broke drivers side on weekend. Ive got a spare axle to practise on plus for the spare parts. From what Steve has said might be a broken cage. I was planning to do the whole front end anyway as the seals are leaking.
Edit:
Just removed the broken cv , Option 1. very quick.
The cage in a zillion pieces, and the axle seal was also damaged. So I'm running without the axle till a seal kit arrives.
Ill be fitting 1.3 NT CV and axles as they look much stronger than the Marooty ones.

[sierrajim]

added to bible

[nicbeer]

I have heard someone not putting the C clips on the axle when putting it back on?

makes it quicker or something. if this is tru does it hurt or bad for anything in there?

nic

Was this true for u can remove the c clip or a myth.

[sierrajim]

I have heard someone not putting the C clips on the axle when putting it back on?

makes it quicker or something. if this is tru does it hurt or bad for anything in there?

nic

Was this true for u can remove the c clip or a myth.

We don't run the clips in the buggy. Makes CV's quicker to change. Also less pulling load on the CV when turning (in theory)

[nicbeer]

So if i have to put a seal kit through the front anyway, good idea to take the clips off and dont put them back on?

I have a locker in the front and thinking i may brake one eventually.

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

Mugginsmoo doesn't run clips.

Personally, I think they are a good idea but this is just an opinion - I can;t prove that it is better either way.

Steve.

[mugginsmoo]

as stated above, i don't run C clips. and never have.

cant say that it's a good or bad thing. don't know if it will extend or shorten the life of a CV, (i've broken 3 in the last 6 weeks) makes it easyer to change though.

run without the clips at your own risk


Mitch

[Beauzooki]

can anyone tell me how to grease those steering knuckles, as there is no nut that most fourbys have? and when changing the rubber seal on the steering knuckle do you cut it and install from back( thats how the book says to) or does it have to strech over the knuckle?

[ofr57]

it goes over the knuckle

[Beauzooki]

so u dont cut that rubber seal when u replace it. how do u grease those steering knuckles, as there is no nut that most fourbys have?

[Aerenandmel]

can anyone tell me how to grease those steering knuckles, as there is no nut that most fourbys have? and when changing the rubber seal on the steering knuckle do you cut it and install from back( thats how the book says to) or does it have to strech over the knuckle?

I strech mine over the knuckle

[Beauzooki]

oh that sounds like a pain in the ass.do u know how to grease the steering knuckles

[want33s]

oh that sounds like a pain in the ass.do u know how to grease the steering knuckles

You don't..
You pack enough grease into the CV joint to keep it greased, plus a handful for good measure.
The knuckle seals are only there to stop dirt/mud/water/(bits of broken hilux ) from contaminating the CV grease.
Jas.