Need a pic (G16b vitara) + fuel eco

[nicbeer]

Hey,

couple things.

.. Need a pic if possible of the under bonnet sticker from a vitara g16B manual if possible showing the service data.

.. Wheres the timing taken from on these motors? same as sierra on the timing cover?

.. seems like to have bad fuel eco at moment. been thkining about cleaning out the egr/icv and throttle body. where r they on the inlet manifold and whats the best way of cleaning them?

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

Hey Nic,

Did you get the O2 sensor/cat converter temp/trouble codes sorted?

My guess is that there is still an error code in the system somewhere and the computer isn't looking at the O2 sensor, so is still running in open loop which will be rich.

It will drive fine but will drink like a sailor. - again, this is exactly what critta was doing.

Once again, won't be in a position to sit down in front of my FSM until Thursday now, but I can do some digging for you.


Steve.

[nicbeer]

Nah not yet. hope to take it for a drive tomorrow.

would the code dissappear once key is on? if so how long would it take to get a new code? on idle or short drive.

have to find best way to short pins in diag block. found pinout now i think for shorting.

Nic

[smileysmoke]

just a thought. do the MPFIs have a sensor in the cat?
the TBI setup seems to have one..

[Gwagensteve]

Nah not yet. hope to take it for a drive tomorrow.

would the code dissappear once key is on? if so how long would it take to get a new code? on idle or short drive.

have to find best way to short pins in diag block. found pinout now i think for shorting.

Nic

I don't remember the exact procedure, We did it with "a second cousin of Greg's" Jimny build, but there was a procedure and the trouble code only displayed with the key in the "ON" position.

With the Jimny G13BB the list of codes was quite specific- basically every sensor.

The problem with the O2 sensor (as en example, and the Cat temp probe if you model had it) is that it might only some up once the engine is up to temperature so it will take a bit of driving to get the code up.

I could be wrong with some of the detail of this, but when the engine is on choke, it runs in open loop so it doesn't even look for the O2 sensor, because it knows on choke it will be rich. Once up to temp, it will then go looking for the 02 sensor signal to achieve closed loop, but never see it so the cars stays on open loop and will drive against the set table in the computer. (and the check engine light lights)

Another thought - no coolant temp sensor (faulty or incorrectly wired) ight gove he same result you are seeing - but this shoudl come up on diagnotics.

PS is your idle speed normal? If it's high, it might indicate it's not coming off of cold start becuse of a coolant temp sensor issue.

Steve.

[nicbeer]

Nah not yet. hope to take it for a drive tomorrow.

would the code dissappear once key is on? if so how long would it take to get a new code? on idle or short drive.

have to find best way to short pins in diag block. found pinout now i think for shorting.

Nic

I don't remember the exact procedure, We did it with "a second cousin of Greg's" Jimny build, but there was a procedure and the trouble code only displayed with the key in the "ON" position.

With the Jimny G13BB the list of codes was quite specific- basically every sensor.

The problem with the O2 sensor (as en example, and the Cat temp probe if you model had it) is that it might only some up once the engine is up to temperature so it will take a bit of driving to get the code up.

I could be wrong with some of the detail of this, but when the engine is on choke, it runs in open loop so it doesn't even look for the O2 sensor, because it knows on choke it will be rich. Once up to temp, it will then go looking for the 02 sensor signal to achieve closed loop, but never see it so the cars stays on open loop and will drive against the set table in the computer. (and the check engine light lights)

Another thought - no coolant temp sensor (faulty or incorrectly wired) ight gove he same result you are seeing - but this shoudl come up on diagnotics.

PS is your idle speed normal? If it's high, it might indicate it's not coming off of cold start becuse of a coolant temp sensor issue.

Steve.

Cheers Steve,

yeh idle is random, sometimes it will stay high for abit and others normal as i beleive it is. 800 or so. temp on the gauge is normal but maybe where it grabs it from the motor side, does this have to be on a certain temp plug as there seems to be a couple of them in same spot.

check engine light also has not lit itself that i have seem, only when in the on position at start.

i will check the codes tonight if i can before i run it and then will try take it for a drive to warm it up and recheck.

Nic

[cj]

The codes are in the system until you clear them by disconnecting the battery for a couple of minutes. If it brings up multiple codes it will be the newest code first and then getting older and older codes.

The O2 sensor could be at fault even without a code coming up as it starts to deteriorate and the economy will suffer. I think it is about 100,000km expected life for the sensor but MightyMouse will correct me if I'm wrong.

[nicbeer]

engine has only done 45k from japan. so possible it could be damaged in the removal and refit process into the extractors as well.

thanks cj on the codes

[Gwagensteve]

This could be the case with a few sensors too - won't register a fault code but will do wierdness.

My guess is you aren't coming off of open loop or cold start.

If you don't get a check engine lit whilst the engine is running, you won't get any trouble codes when you do diagnostics.

Steve.

[nicbeer]

ew. is there anyway to force it out of cold start or into closed loop mode?

pretty much none of the engine harness has been modified cept for the connection up to the sierra wiring and gauges.

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

*Guess*
No, not unless it sees all sensors in range.
*extended guess*
I have not encoutnered a car with a cat temp probe before, I have only seesn it on dash clusters (and on import cars like silvias) but it has been unused ion the cars I have been involved with.

Do you know for sure that is had this probe
does this probe still exist? (i.e did you get the exhaust far enough back to include the cat?)
is it in the new exhaust?
If not, what have you done? Disconnected it or taped out the way or something?

Just some ideas

Steve.

[nicbeer]

i beleive yes it did have this under there, i got the whole frontcut and had the cat under there, had a plug going towards the gearbox end of the wiring setup. the plug probably still on the box i sent to mugginsmoo.

If it went and i believe it did go to the gearbox wiring i disconnected this under the intake manifold and left it at that as did not need any of that i beleive.

not in the new exhaust. i should still have it at home. finding it 2nite.

[Gwagensteve]

* In the absence of real tech on this, I'll keep guessing away*

Open circuit on this temp sender could be the culprit, it should see a resistance (i guess... assuming it is a thermocouple?) unless it is a kind of temp actualted switch (on/off)

If it's a thermocouple, it might look for a "range" it considers normal so you won't be able to delete it altogether without some effect.

If it is a switch, then it should be normally open or normally closed. If it is normally closed until overtemp is reached, then by leaving it disconnected the computer will think the cat is cooking and run rich to cool it down.

PS... That means you had an auto originally then, so A)You Fool for not keeping it! (but a least it went to a good home) and B) do you have a manual computer? have you done any research about the effects of removing the auto inputs into the computer

In some suzuki models (once again, I am thinking G13BB) there is an auto diagnostic plug as well, the codes are flashed on the overdrive light. does anyone know if there will be an effect on the motor is it doesn't see the auto in the case of a manual being fitted?

Steve.

[nicbeer]

True True.
auto computer for the ecu. the trans ecu is separate and sent with the box.

Not tried a manual computer and from what i have seen on the wiring diagrams does not hook in anywhere that the ecu needs. inputs were going in.

New docs up at http://www.suzukiinfo.com/ for the auto and wiring diagrams in the vitara section that i got hold of from the dealer.

main research on auto inputs are from the wiring diagram and from tech posts on here. esp as someone on here fitted a manual to there vit where there was a auto. had to close inhibitor to start or run i beleive but i did not have to do this as using the sierra keyswitch setup.

[mugginsmoo]

the Vit auto has it's own diagnostic plug, and flashed the codes through it's own lights (O/D and Power/Normal)
there were only 3 wires coming from the computer to the tran-control-module, throttle pos, water temp and a speed sensor.
so from this you should be able to run the computor sucsessfully.

i beleive yes it did have this under there, i got the whole frontcut and had the cat under there, had a plug going towards the gearbox end of the wiring setup. the plug probably still on the box i sent to mugginsmoo.

now i know what that "odd" wire that went to the back of the box was

had to close inhibitor to start or run i beleive but i did not have to do this as using the sierra keyswitch setup

the inhibitor is on the auto box, so i've got that.

Mitch

[nicbeer]

he he. thanks muggins.

Pics of the extra plug i found on the cat. not had a chance to check the rest yet.





Nic

[nicbeer]

Can anyone tell me if the pic is of a temp sensor or O2 ?

btw - still need the underbonnet pic.

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

That's temp.

If the car had two 02 sensors, one woudl be where yours is now (in the manifold) and the other would be after the cat to monitor cat function, but G16B mangement isn't that complex.

Steve.

[nicbeer]

Super, thanks steve, i wont try digging it out then.

so this still could be for the engine or gearbox also i am guesing. from what i read i beleive it is run inline with the other temp from the engine as it does not i think have an input into the ecu for another temp plug.

Nic

[Gwagensteve]

It won't have anything to do with the gearbox.
It won't have anything to do with coolant temp.
It is there to prevent destroying the cat and turning on an idiot light on the dash- BUT

*back into guess mode*

I would have thought that that the ECU turned that light on.
I would have also thought that when that light went on, the car might have gone back into open loop (rich) in order to cool the cat down (which it sounds like your car is not getting out of)

I would be surprised if that temp probe itself was just a heat operated switch that pulled the dash light in, but it might be possible.

Assuming your car is otherwise wired properly, I can't see why you would be having a problem achieving closed loop control.

I could be giving you a bum steer, but in the absence of other issues, I'd be following that temp probe. I'll have alook in the FSM tonight and see if there is any reference to it.

Steve.

[mugginsmoo]

thats the sucker, the plug on the "extra" wire would fit that temp sender nice.

the other end should be near the plug for the shift solenoids, against the fire-wall, behind the motor.

Mitch

[nicbeer]

thats the sucker, the plug on the "extra" wire would fit that temp sender nice.

the other end should be near the plug for the shift solenoids, against the fire-wall, behind the motor.

Mitch

cheers steve, not got a fuel gauge in as yet as been broken. hopefully 2nite i will swap it over if can work out how to get cluster out again.

Do you need it muggins? i can extract it if needed or at least cut the plug off.

i will have a look at the wiring diagrams as well for reference.

[Gwagensteve]

Just gone through the FSM for the five door model (which has heaps of wiring diagrams in it)

This has diagrams for Germany, Saudi Arabia (no 02 sensor at all ) general right had drive and "other markets"

None had a temp sender for cat converter temp mentioned, nor is it mentioned in the ECM pin outs.

There are also diagrams for heated (4 wire) and non heated (1 wire) 02 sensors.

Mocks engine in critta was an import, ran a one wire sensor and was the same as the early 5 doors.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[nicbeer]

thanks steve.

This is what i have found in the SQ416 manual.(on suzukiinfo) farken 800 pages long, shiteloads of tech in there.

double 02 sensor but not a temp wire.



Nic

[Gwagensteve]

If I;m right that lists the part as a heated oxygen sensor, which is a 4-wire sensor, and as I said earlier, it is after the cat.

This will be required for US market 50 state emissions. (and will aparently give a check engine light if you put a broomstick through the cat!)

A)because it is in not after the cat, I think you have a temp sensor
D)yours doesn't have 4 wires or look big enough at the base to be an 02 sensor
B)It's unique to the japanese domestic models as it iwas not a requirement for world market
C)you'll need to find a japanese market wiring diagram methinks, unless anyone can confirm whether it can be deleted or it effects closed loop control

Steve.

[mugginsmoo]

nic,

i'll have a look and get back to you if i can find it.

Mitch

[cj]

Mitch,

I think you need to update your sig to "SNAP" "BANG" "GRIND" "WELD"

[Squik]

Not meaning to hijack but...

Would an o2 sensor affect slush-box changes? Swapped out the X90 manifold with a set of Calmini headers and the auto changes are hanging in there longer. Used the original sensor (assuming that it's the one on the lower end of the header). Fuel economy appears better, had a really good increase in power, but I seem to be losing that now

Since the headers went in, it sounds like I am revving my arse off before upchanges

[Gwagensteve]

It's not really clear if you are running the sensor or not? (or both, or one in the wrong spot??)

If you removed the sensor, I would have thought it will effect the auto as the engine will be on open loop (so nominally rich and retarded)

Steve.

[Squik]

The original sensor was connected back up to the Calmini headers...