gday all
who wants a super charger for there zook ??
found this on ebay.
seems a little dear but i guess there hard to find
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SUBARU-SUPER-CHA ... dZViewItem
THREE DAYS LEFT
cheers daryl
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super charger
I woudl have thought they woudl have been out of flow for pretty much anything we would want to do with them- just like 660cc turbos - they are sized for torque production and to stay under 47kw outright power.
Might be OK for a 1.0 sierra, just, or maybe to supercharge an LJ50
Steve.
Might be OK for a 1.0 sierra, just, or maybe to supercharge an LJ50
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
You would be surprised Steve. Using a small charger like this on a normally aspirated engine that was never designed for it does not require much more air to get it to move. I know overkill used this exact blower on one of their Sierras a while back and I have sold others in the past for the exact same conversion. We also sell a few of the Toyota SC14 superchargers (from a 2 Litre engine) for the Holden 3.8L engines. I think its Castlemaine Rod Shop that actually do a kit for them. If these were too small then why are they so popular for such conversions?Gwagensteve wrote:I woudl have thought they woudl have been out of flow for pretty much anything we would want to do with them- just like 660cc turbos - they are sized for torque production and to stay under 47kw outright power.
Might be OK for a 1.0 sierra, just, or maybe to supercharge an LJ50
Steve.
So would the AMR300 work well for a 1300 efi? Supercharging is something that i've been consedering for a while, but have never found a good amount of info that would suggest fitting one to efi without having to change too much would be an easy conversion.
'07 Stock Mazda BT50. Rock slidders - Mickey Thompson ATZ - Stright through exhaust.
Because they are cheap and people are crazy for boost. Look at the number of threads even on Outers by people with lashed together turbo/supercharging setups with no thought to fuelling, timing or how the engine is going to hold together.
I've read some articles that indicated that the SC14 is pretty much is too small for a holden V6- in fact, though, it does about what you'd expect- it beefs out the torque but doesn't do a great deal for HP as it runs out of flow. Holden V6's are pigs at the best of times and have very poor combustion chamber characteristics, so I am sure that a small amount of boost really fills out the power curve.
I am sure too that a 660 subaru supercharger will beef up torque delivery in, say, a 1.3, but I don't think it is going to rock the world. Might be a way of waking up a g13BB jimny with an auto behind it or something to help whilst not breaking anything though.
I guess it comes down to effort vs return - fuelling, timing, bracketry etc will have to be dealt with for either a supercharger that will be well up to the job (like one from a 4Agze or a 1Ggze, or a cooper S eaton, any of which are good for around 120kw) or for one that is too small.
The linear power delivery of superchargers doesn make them a good candidate for an offroad application though IMHO.
Steve.
I've read some articles that indicated that the SC14 is pretty much is too small for a holden V6- in fact, though, it does about what you'd expect- it beefs out the torque but doesn't do a great deal for HP as it runs out of flow. Holden V6's are pigs at the best of times and have very poor combustion chamber characteristics, so I am sure that a small amount of boost really fills out the power curve.
I am sure too that a 660 subaru supercharger will beef up torque delivery in, say, a 1.3, but I don't think it is going to rock the world. Might be a way of waking up a g13BB jimny with an auto behind it or something to help whilst not breaking anything though.
I guess it comes down to effort vs return - fuelling, timing, bracketry etc will have to be dealt with for either a supercharger that will be well up to the job (like one from a 4Agze or a 1Ggze, or a cooper S eaton, any of which are good for around 120kw) or for one that is too small.
The linear power delivery of superchargers doesn make them a good candidate for an offroad application though IMHO.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
If I did consider a SC I would only want about 3-4 pounds of boost. My train of thought is that it would help greatly for highway speeds making it easier to overtake and hold speed over hills whilst "maybe" giving better fuel ecconomy on the flat because I wouldn't have to push so hard into the wind. I was also under the impression that by only having 3 pounds of boost that I wouldn't need to gap the head or get stronger rods or anything as it wasn't overkill. Overkill being about 8 pounds I would have thought?
What do you experienced guys reckon? If you can't tell I'm not a mechanics bum. I'm the electronics guru.
What do you experienced guys reckon? If you can't tell I'm not a mechanics bum. I'm the electronics guru.
'07 Stock Mazda BT50. Rock slidders - Mickey Thompson ATZ - Stright through exhaust.
I don't actually think there is a minimum boost level for engine damage to occur, it's all down to tuning. Your premise is right - 3-4psi will help heaps though, but what goes in to achieving it often makes it uneconomic to do.
It has been proven with many engines that power increases of 100% or even more are possible with stock internals if timing and fuelling are well controlled. (And the stock redline is observed) poorly tuned engines might live longer with lower boost, mostly becuse the flogging the head gasket/pistons are copping is limited (because the outright cylinder pressure is lower as the materials limits aren't being exceeded.)
Some of the most powerful (and boosted) engines around run surprisingly high compression. but are very carefully (and expensively) tuned.
That's the real catch, and cost, in adding boost to a motor - Getting the fuelling and timing spot on. Trying to achieve this with carbies and distributors with vacuum advance (spot the obvious problem!) is a real minefield and leads to lots of melted motors.
Ideally, you need a G13BB jimny head/manifold/computer and an interceptor like a unichip, or full programmable injection. The trick is a "coil pack" motor - coil pack motors control timing via the computer so you can make the ignition map respond properly under boost.
Some people might say that you don't need any of this and that 4 psi will be fine with XXX collection of parts. They might be right, but the only way to know is to put the car on a dyno with a wideband oxygen sensor and find out exactly what its doing. Ususally the people who have gone down the "suck it and see" path also have lunched a few motors proving what works.
PS- Fuel use is calucated at approximately 1/2 lb of fuel/hp/hr. If you are able to travel faster at highway speeds, it will take more HP to do it and therefore you will use more fuel. Having said that, getting the fuelling right and improving the engines V/E with some boost may well help when not at full throttle. Generally, your fuel use will stay about the same but performance will improve.
For some context, I am running a factory turbo 660. It has had the factory fuelling wound right up by a previous owner by installing the richest available fuelling resistor (factory part)I am running 12psi boost (up from 8 stock just via better exhaust flow and intercooling) I am giong to be resetting my fuelling to stock and fitting a wideband A/F meter before I do anything else..... because right now I know it is rich off boost but have no idea how it is fuelling on boost.
Steve.
It has been proven with many engines that power increases of 100% or even more are possible with stock internals if timing and fuelling are well controlled. (And the stock redline is observed) poorly tuned engines might live longer with lower boost, mostly becuse the flogging the head gasket/pistons are copping is limited (because the outright cylinder pressure is lower as the materials limits aren't being exceeded.)
Some of the most powerful (and boosted) engines around run surprisingly high compression. but are very carefully (and expensively) tuned.
That's the real catch, and cost, in adding boost to a motor - Getting the fuelling and timing spot on. Trying to achieve this with carbies and distributors with vacuum advance (spot the obvious problem!) is a real minefield and leads to lots of melted motors.
Ideally, you need a G13BB jimny head/manifold/computer and an interceptor like a unichip, or full programmable injection. The trick is a "coil pack" motor - coil pack motors control timing via the computer so you can make the ignition map respond properly under boost.
Some people might say that you don't need any of this and that 4 psi will be fine with XXX collection of parts. They might be right, but the only way to know is to put the car on a dyno with a wideband oxygen sensor and find out exactly what its doing. Ususally the people who have gone down the "suck it and see" path also have lunched a few motors proving what works.
PS- Fuel use is calucated at approximately 1/2 lb of fuel/hp/hr. If you are able to travel faster at highway speeds, it will take more HP to do it and therefore you will use more fuel. Having said that, getting the fuelling right and improving the engines V/E with some boost may well help when not at full throttle. Generally, your fuel use will stay about the same but performance will improve.
For some context, I am running a factory turbo 660. It has had the factory fuelling wound right up by a previous owner by installing the richest available fuelling resistor (factory part)I am running 12psi boost (up from 8 stock just via better exhaust flow and intercooling) I am giong to be resetting my fuelling to stock and fitting a wideband A/F meter before I do anything else..... because right now I know it is rich off boost but have no idea how it is fuelling on boost.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I dont think it will ever improve your fuel consumption, because every rotation it pumps more fuel and air through, regardless of what the engine is doing with it. So the times where it will save you fuel will be outweighed by the times where it uses more (This could be complete bollocks, just my thoughts).
My set up will be a bit different from every other one I've seen, but that's because i'm a tight arse (or just too lazy to find someone else who's done it). Both fuelling and timing will be taken care of, and I'm hoping for only around 5psi of boost. Apparently it's not hard to get more out of these little chargers, but you start melting rotors very quickly. I figure 5psi will give me the little bit of extra torque I want and keep the reliability of the engine and the charger.
If it doesn't work how I want it, the whole set up cost me around $600 so it's no great loss. I'll just on sell it to someone else who it does suit
I'm no expert though, I just spin spanners till I'm happy.
My set up will be a bit different from every other one I've seen, but that's because i'm a tight arse (or just too lazy to find someone else who's done it). Both fuelling and timing will be taken care of, and I'm hoping for only around 5psi of boost. Apparently it's not hard to get more out of these little chargers, but you start melting rotors very quickly. I figure 5psi will give me the little bit of extra torque I want and keep the reliability of the engine and the charger.
If it doesn't work how I want it, the whole set up cost me around $600 so it's no great loss. I'll just on sell it to someone else who it does suit
I'm no expert though, I just spin spanners till I'm happy.
Um, no, I don't think you are on the right track there Wasabi,
Where you have fuel and air, you will have HP. If you match fuel and air to load, you will have steady revs. if you increase fuel, revs increase because HP is increasing at a higher rate than load.
Under closed throttle, you have to pull the fuel out of the engine or else revs will just keep climbing. Most superchargers run bypasses or BOV's to prevent them loading boost against the butterflies when the throttle is shut (or run the throttle body before the charger and injectors after)
Hope that makes sense. If you can't pull fuel out, you can't slow the engine down.
Steve.
Where you have fuel and air, you will have HP. If you match fuel and air to load, you will have steady revs. if you increase fuel, revs increase because HP is increasing at a higher rate than load.
Under closed throttle, you have to pull the fuel out of the engine or else revs will just keep climbing. Most superchargers run bypasses or BOV's to prevent them loading boost against the butterflies when the throttle is shut (or run the throttle body before the charger and injectors after)
Hope that makes sense. If you can't pull fuel out, you can't slow the engine down.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Yere, that makes sense Steve, thanks 
I'm going to be running a Blow Through carb set up instead of fuel injection, but yes, I have a BOV to act as a bypass venting back infront of the charger. And before people start yelling at me, no, I'm not using a standard Suzuki carb, and yes the carb I'm using is set up to handle boost.
I'm going to be running a Blow Through carb set up instead of fuel injection, but yes, I have a BOV to act as a bypass venting back infront of the charger. And before people start yelling at me, no, I'm not using a standard Suzuki carb, and yes the carb I'm using is set up to handle boost.
Is the carb you're using suited to off road vibration and angles?WasabiPimpNinja wrote:Yere, that makes sense Steve, thanks
(side question, would a blow through aid a carby in running off road? )
[quote="Harb"]Well I'm guessing that they didn't think everyone would carry on like a big bunch of sooky girls over it like they have........[/quote]
Not necessarily - they are still beholden to gravity (but only the 1st layer 
)
Some carb designs are better suited to off road work - I believe SU's are excellent offroad.
The consequences of a lean out under boost is part of the problem - the damage happens way quicker.
)Some carb designs are better suited to off road work - I believe SU's are excellent offroad.
The consequences of a lean out under boost is part of the problem - the damage happens way quicker.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I wasn't casting aspersions about what you were planning wasabi.
I will say though that lots of go-fast carby guys don't understand off road requirements very well, they tend to think in straight lines.... 1/4mile long.
A cough and subsequent stumble from a carby can be pretty destructive when under boost, especially to a motor not designed for boost.
Land Rover experimented with turbo petrols in the 1960's with their truck project (don't remember what it was called, but it was BIG - thing 900X16's and full width axles with a LR cab) as they had no petrol engine powerful enough for the job, they had a play with suck through carbies. they ran SU's I think and have heard many people say that SU's are the best offroad carby available.
I will say though that lots of go-fast carby guys don't understand off road requirements very well, they tend to think in straight lines.... 1/4mile long.
A cough and subsequent stumble from a carby can be pretty destructive when under boost, especially to a motor not designed for boost.
Land Rover experimented with turbo petrols in the 1960's with their truck project (don't remember what it was called, but it was BIG - thing 900X16's and full width axles with a LR cab) as they had no petrol engine powerful enough for the job, they had a play with suck through carbies. they ran SU's I think and have heard many people say that SU's are the best offroad carby available.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Another carb to consider for offroad work is the Stromberg CD. IMHO they or the SU would be a better choice than the Weber. They won't quite deliver the same potential top end but their all around performance would be better.
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Once upon a time CJ we fitted may Strombergs to turbo falcons (XF Vintage) as a base model. They had advantages over the SU in that they were more compact -and a bit easier to get through emissions testing.
Definately worth looking into. Don't know about blow through however -always avoided it like the plague.
And on topic... I would much rather fit a larger blower and run it slowly than a small one and rev it hard. Steve's point about SC14's on Holdens is a case in point - its just too small to be efficient at the overdrive ratio necessary to feed the engine.
If you have to run the blower too hard, the discharge temperature goes up significantly, which then makes life much harder for the engines fueling/timing - and doesn't do the engine life much good.
Its always been a problem - there's an obsession with pressure over efficiency.
Definately worth looking into. Don't know about blow through however -always avoided it like the plague.
And on topic... I would much rather fit a larger blower and run it slowly than a small one and rev it hard. Steve's point about SC14's on Holdens is a case in point - its just too small to be efficient at the overdrive ratio necessary to feed the engine.
If you have to run the blower too hard, the discharge temperature goes up significantly, which then makes life much harder for the engines fueling/timing - and doesn't do the engine life much good.
Its always been a problem - there's an obsession with pressure over efficiency.
look at this guy he is crazy (teehee) and shush danzo if you read this....
www.lol.endoftheinternet.org/supercharge.htm
www.lol.endoftheinternet.org/supercharge.htm
A) Where do I get a planetary Sierra Diff?
B) Where do I get a spool for a Sierra?
I can see one or two other small problems raising their heads here... I hope he has a line on free super carry 1.0's.... he's gonna need them
A rootes type supercharger should be sized and geared to produce consistent boost throughout the engines rev range.
I imagine that a supercharger that is way too big for the application will be self defeating below a certain RPM point on a small engine if peak boost is to remain acceptable (i.e it can't produce boost at 1000rpm because it's spinning too slow) but the last thing you would want out of a rootes supercharger is it running out of flow- at that point it will be choking the engine, spitting out red hot outlet air and destroying itself in the process.
A well sized rootes supercharger is a beautiful thing - I haven't driven a GZE, but our cooper S (similar outputs to a GZE from the same capacity) had a very very impressive midrange that actually makes our 2.5 litre STi feel a bit, well, soft down low.
Steve.
B) Where do I get a spool for a Sierra?
I can see one or two other small problems raising their heads here... I hope he has a line on free super carry 1.0's.... he's gonna need them
A rootes type supercharger should be sized and geared to produce consistent boost throughout the engines rev range.
I imagine that a supercharger that is way too big for the application will be self defeating below a certain RPM point on a small engine if peak boost is to remain acceptable (i.e it can't produce boost at 1000rpm because it's spinning too slow) but the last thing you would want out of a rootes supercharger is it running out of flow- at that point it will be choking the engine, spitting out red hot outlet air and destroying itself in the process.
A well sized rootes supercharger is a beautiful thing - I haven't driven a GZE, but our cooper S (similar outputs to a GZE from the same capacity) had a very very impressive midrange that actually makes our 2.5 litre STi feel a bit, well, soft down low.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
It depends how much oversize you go.
If the blower is underdriven too much rotor leakage is a problem, but I am talking about the difference between a SC12 & a SC14 for example.
0,2 ltrs/rev displacement difference but flowing the same air about 40 Deg
lower charge temp.
Clutched VS Unclutched blowers also drive very differently and for a full time installation, the large blower housing runs much cooler
If the blower is underdriven too much rotor leakage is a problem, but I am talking about the difference between a SC12 & a SC14 for example.
0,2 ltrs/rev displacement difference but flowing the same air about 40 Deg
lower charge temp.
Clutched VS Unclutched blowers also drive very differently and for a full time installation, the large blower housing runs much cooler
As per usual, you said I what I tried to better....
What's the normal operation pattern for a clutch type supercharger? Off at idle/coast? Is it due to emissions?
Steve.
What's the normal operation pattern for a clutch type supercharger? Off at idle/coast? Is it due to emissions?
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Sc14 puts out 28 psi at idle using the standard sc14 clutch driven pulley and standard 2 row harmonic balancer when fitted to 1.3. I run a bypass which is 25 mm tube of the main supply tube , this has lowered the boost and I have changed pulley speed to under drive the blower which now runs at maximum 5 psi. I pick up my head and cam this week and it currently does 110 on the freeway in 5th gear at about 3800 rpm at about 1/3 throttle. It runs at 10 degrees TDC timing and shows no signs of detonation under load. Vacuum advance is disconnected and I am running a 1.6 injector so it seems to have enough fuel for the moment. I also run a blow of valve set to 5 psi which vents back to the air cleaner box , so I'm hoping for more power still once the head and new cam go in and the supercharger runs all the time now so at idle there is no boost , Cheers Paul.
BLOWNZUK 1.3 efi,sc14 supercharger,hilux diffs,detroit lockers,stage 4 rockhopper,6 point cage,35 muddies.
i wouldnt say that the g13bb is an ideal motor as they use a map sensor and dont like boost. I have all the parts to make an adjustable map sensor, and would have my supercharger on by now, but would rather use a sc12 or amr300 rather than the sc14 i have now. A engine with an airflow meter would be better suited to boost.
85 LWB w. FRP Canopy
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
The Stromberg in a draw through application was also used on the old turbo Sigma's way back when.MightyMouse wrote:Once upon a time CJ we fitted may Strombergs to turbo falcons (XF Vintage) as a base model. They had advantages over the SU in that they were more compact -and a bit easier to get through emissions testing.
Definately worth looking into. Don't know about blow through however -always avoided it like the plague.
How about using a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor?Spike_Sierra wrote:i wouldnt say that the g13bb is an ideal motor as they use a map sensor and dont like boost.
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
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