Hi All,
Does anyone here run MSD ignition.
I put MSD on my lil zook yesterday, and wow, the difference is amazing.
From when I bought her, and thought she was as weak as an ole mole, I started looking for more power. My brother who convinced me to buy one, sed I was too used to hot V8s in 4wds and had to learn about zooks, drive it like you stole it, was his direction.
Anyways, I put in Redline oils all thru her, better but not good, then some eztractors and a 2" outlet with a straight thru muffler, again better but still wanting, removed the fan, went thermo, ok, put on a webber, oh yea, big diff but has angle probs, then went to MSD.
It is now a far far gruntier lil beast, has much more hang on power, I have 31" baja claws, and spinin them is not a drama in 2nd now, I can drive much slower, which is nice in such a short wheel base, where I was revin hard in 2nd to go where i play, can now do it in 3rd with ease, and have much much better throttle response.
If I can suggest any upgrade, go MSD, 200 buks, best money I spent.
I only went for the 5200 series, Monday I think I will order the 6 series with a MSD coil and see what that does.
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MSD
No dissy but an MSD Blaster coil works in a Zook as well as MSD 6 Offroad ignition.
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_8_6470.htm
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_8_6470.htm
I acted without thinking, im gunna get a 6470 an master blaster, recon as that would be a big improvement over the 5200, not that there is anything wrong with that, its stunning, but, there can always be more.want33s wrote:No dissy but an MSD Blaster coil works in a Zook as well as MSD 6 Offroad ignition.
http://www.msdignition.com/ignition_8_6470.htm
I cant get past 318kw in me gen 3, shes getn MSD an ill get past the magic 320 with ease.
7AL2 hey, ill check it out, the gen 3s have 8 coils, an only one type to suit, no options, but must be efin good, the lil ones are.
You have the dyno figures to prove this amazing difference ?
You could be right, but I have heard of so may 'amazing differences" without any proof, that without before and after dyno numbers its meaningless.
After all people still by Hyclones and electric superchargers
You could be right, but I have heard of so may 'amazing differences" without any proof, that without before and after dyno numbers its meaningless.
After all people still by Hyclones and electric superchargers
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
No bother at all - if you "live power", and I agree that there's never enough", then you will know that before and after measuring is the way to determine improvement or otherwise.
Take the air cleaner off a car - 99% of people will swear its MUCH faster - so easy to kid yourself.
As someone who has a fair bit of engine and chassis dyno experience - the number of times I have heard "it makes X kW because this bits worth Y kW and this bits worth...." - it quickly vanishes after the first run.
BTW its considered that changes of less than 10% can't be determined by a driver. Don't know what your running but lets say 70hp, to feel the difference that's about 7 hp difference - just from the MSD. Hmmmmm
Fine - you have spent a lot of money on a MSD, they aren't bad units - but unless the stock ignition was almost dead........
Take the air cleaner off a car - 99% of people will swear its MUCH faster - so easy to kid yourself.
As someone who has a fair bit of engine and chassis dyno experience - the number of times I have heard "it makes X kW because this bits worth Y kW and this bits worth...." - it quickly vanishes after the first run.
BTW its considered that changes of less than 10% can't be determined by a driver. Don't know what your running but lets say 70hp, to feel the difference that's about 7 hp difference - just from the MSD. Hmmmmm
Fine - you have spent a lot of money on a MSD, they aren't bad units - but unless the stock ignition was almost dead........
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Just wait until you put a magnet on your fuel line!
David123, your posts aren't making much sense. Why should we believe your opinion without any proof?
You may well have improved your car's off idle response and picked up some bottom end torque, but these gains are very hard to measure. With all the other untested modifications on your engine, and without any dyno figures to back it up, MM was pointing out that your impression is no more than opinion.
Have you adjusted spark gap, investigated other heat range plugs or anything else to maximise spark power?
Out of interest MM, I guess a dyno could be useful for measuring low RPM torque increases, especially if A/F was measured before and after? I.e if improved spark was making a large difference, it should show in A/F, no?
Steve.
David123, your posts aren't making much sense. Why should we believe your opinion without any proof?
You may well have improved your car's off idle response and picked up some bottom end torque, but these gains are very hard to measure. With all the other untested modifications on your engine, and without any dyno figures to back it up, MM was pointing out that your impression is no more than opinion.
Have you adjusted spark gap, investigated other heat range plugs or anything else to maximise spark power?
Out of interest MM, I guess a dyno could be useful for measuring low RPM torque increases, especially if A/F was measured before and after? I.e if improved spark was making a large difference, it should show in A/F, no?
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I didn't spemd much on MSD, $200, thats all, I call that stuff all, in fact, I am gunna trash that and get a bigger system, go the 6 series not the 5.
I spent over 5 grand makin my gen 3 go over 300kw, der, $200, sorry, i spend more than that on beer a week, if you red my posts is what I was trying to say, very very cheap power.
I am not a dyno genius, I am a very dedicated off roader, my experiance tells me that the MSD is a big power gain, not up top, but down low, where the wee lil 1.3ltr is seriously lacking.
Sorry to have bothered you guys, I am not in your dyno leage, I go by the seat of my pants.
magnet on the fuel line, yr a fuk wit.
No need to reply, I aint gunna come here agen, only "wanna be" folk come here.
I spent over 5 grand makin my gen 3 go over 300kw, der, $200, sorry, i spend more than that on beer a week, if you red my posts is what I was trying to say, very very cheap power.
I am not a dyno genius, I am a very dedicated off roader, my experiance tells me that the MSD is a big power gain, not up top, but down low, where the wee lil 1.3ltr is seriously lacking.
Sorry to have bothered you guys, I am not in your dyno leage, I go by the seat of my pants.
magnet on the fuel line, yr a fuk wit.
No need to reply, I aint gunna come here agen, only "wanna be" folk come here.
Yes a run on a dyno will definitely show that, I would suggest starting off a higher gear than normal to prolong the low RPM phase if its an inertia dyno or a slow ramp rate if its a brake.Gwagensteve wrote:Out of interest MM, I guess a dyno could be useful for measuring low RPM torque increases, especially if A/F was measured before and after? I.e if improved spark was making a large difference, it should show in A/F, no? - Steve.
As for lambda - it depends a lot on the response speed of the sensor. Modern sensors response is so fast that they can follow cylinder by cylinder and so can correct very much in real time - so the engine can maintain "optimum" transient A/F. Older systems allow their probes little or no influence during transient operation - so you may see a change.
At the end of the day - its the dyno numbers that matter, if the A/F is different from what's expected but it makes more power/torque then don't argue
Currently just about finished the control and software for an inertial dyno - perhaps a new toy for the club
Don't think the 1000kW range will be required for our junk.( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Don't be like that mate..... Forums like this only work because everyone has a different point of view.david123 wrote: magnet on the fuel line, yr a fuk wit.
No need to reply, I aint gunna come here agen, only "wanna be" folk come here.
Gwagen wasn't having a go at you he was just trying to get some sort of proof of claim of performance.
Many on here make claims they can't prove.
I reckon MSD is better than ANY stock ignition as thats all they do but others are yet to be converted. Look at ANY professional drag car and you'll see MSD ignition.
I don't have dyno figures for my ute (351 XA) but I do know it starts easier and 'feels' like it pulls harder hence more torque and HP.
The tailpipe went from an oily sludgy black to sooty black within 300km so its burning cleaner. If its burning more of the fuel it must be making more power.
want33s wrote:Don't be like that mate..... Forums like this only work because everyone has a different point of view.david123 wrote: magnet on the fuel line, yr a fuk wit.
No need to reply, I aint gunna come here agen, only "wanna be" folk come here.
Gwagen wasn't having a go at you he was just trying to get some sort of proof of claim of performance.
Many on here make claims they can't prove.
I reckon MSD is better than ANY stock ignition as thats all they do but others are yet to be converted. Look at ANY professional drag car and you'll see MSD ignition.
I don't have dyno figures for my ute (351 XA) but I do know it starts easier and 'feels' like it pulls harder hence more torque and HP.
The tailpipe went from an oily sludgy black to sooty black within 300km so its burning cleaner. If its burning more of the fuel it must be making more power.
What If a came online and wrote of my belief that Baja Claws outperform the likes of Cooper SSTs, and others, am I gunna get harassed because I don't have scientific proof to back my claims, crikey, all i did was offer my thoughts on how my car now drives compared to before, and im told that I need scientific proof (read dyno) or my claims are invalid, sorry mate sounds to me like crap.
This isn't a "claim" its just me offering how my lil toy performs, thinking a place like this was for just that, where you can say things that work.
I go 4 wheelin most every day, I have a car that has been modified many ways, and the best by far for power is MSD, no proof, no statistical back up, just an honest opinion.
I looked at the 7 series you are running, that is some serious ignition, very hot stuff.
lurv new toys david123
You post in the TECH section with an opinion without supporting background information or facts, call it "amazing" and then get stressed when people want you to back it up ?
OK - your pleased with your MSD, that's good. I know the stock ignition system on Zooks is pretty average - my opinion on this is probably well known.
But keep it in context - if it idles better, say so, if you think its improved your economy then some figures help, if it now climbs your favorite hill in 5th not 4th then that's also worth mentioning.
Use the word "amazing" and people what to know in what way ? What are they going to get if they follow your path ?
You post in the TECH section with an opinion without supporting background information or facts, call it "amazing" and then get stressed when people want you to back it up ?
OK - your pleased with your MSD, that's good. I know the stock ignition system on Zooks is pretty average - my opinion on this is probably well known.
But keep it in context - if it idles better, say so, if you think its improved your economy then some figures help, if it now climbs your favorite hill in 5th not 4th then that's also worth mentioning.
Use the word "amazing" and people what to know in what way ? What are they going to get if they follow your path ?
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Re: MSD
I thought that this being in my original post sort of sed it.david123 wrote:Hi All,
It is now a far far gruntier lil beast, has much more hang on power, I have 31" baja claws, and spinin them is not a drama in 2nd now, I can drive much slower, which is nice in such a short wheel base, where I was revin hard in 2nd to go where i play, can now do it in 3rd with ease, and have much much better throttle response.
Economy, when ya fangin pedal to medal, who gives a rats.
I dint know I was in Teck, I thought this was a forumn for suzuki people.
Its actually for commercial sale....... got "sucked in" to writing the software but am really enjoying it.cj wrote:lurv new toys
Will be sold as a controller, PC software etc but supply your own rollers. Target $$ are somewhere around $400 +/-. Most of the expense of off the shelf systems is in the mechanical bits and a DIY approach can save lots of money.
I'm seriously thinking of one for myself....
"lurv new toys..."( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Re: MSD
The sticky at the top of page kinda says itdavid123 wrote:
I dint know I was in Teck, I thought this was a forumn for suzuki people.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... c33837.php
Some people are more tech orientated than others and there have been some wild claims made over time so you need to accept a certain degree of scepticism especially if you claim to be able to drive through the first layer of gravity as has been done before
We love details and we love pics and we love/hate our zooks depending on circumstances.[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Club dyno daysMightyMouse wrote:Its actually for commercial sale....... got "sucked in" to writing the software but am really enjoying it.cj wrote:lurv new toys
Will be sold as a controller, PC software etc but supply your own rollers. Target $$ are somewhere around $400 +/-. Most of the expense of off the shelf systems is in the mechanical bits and a DIY approach can save lots of money.
I'm seriously thinking of one for myself....
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Re: MSD
Yep, very teck stuff.cj wrote:The sticky at the top of page kinda says itdavid123 wrote:
I dint know I was in Teck, I thought this was a forumn for suzuki people.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... c33837.php
Some people are more tech orientated than others and there have been some wild claims made over time so you need to accept a certain degree of scepticism especially if you claim to be able to drive through the first layer of gravity as has been done before
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic140995.php
I can put in others, but why.
Ive been a member of outers for quite a few years and have had a eye on it back when you didn't have to be a member. In all this time I have seen maybe a couple of dyno results. Some one is not gunna pay top dollarfor two dyno sessions just so you can look at numbers. After all you got any proof in numbers that mq diffs are better for zooks or sprung under is better.
Give the bloke a break hes trying to help others. My 2c
Give the bloke a break hes trying to help others. My 2c
Its a wheelbase thing
Rhett, You cant really compare MQ diffs, SPUA or even Baja's over STT to claims about power and other measurible quantites. These things are all perceptual and entirley open to the driver/owners preference/opinion. However If I was to make claims like Ive got heaps more power, run at a lower temperature, better economy or produce less CO emmisions these are all things that are measurable in a diffinitive fashion using Dyno's, temp probes or gas analysers etc.
That being said I honestly belive that david was trying to say the he FELT (based on significant personal experience) rather than KNEW for a fact that his car had more power. About the dynos David sounds like a guy not shy to spend some significant coin to get the most out of his machines, why wouldn't he get the zook on a dyno at some point down the track (indeed his fairly specific claim of 318kw from a gen 3 must have been dyno'ed at some time) and a future update on this thread showing the numbers with and without MSD ingnition would surely validate his claim far better than this b*tchy back and forth ever would.
Lastly to the outers gurus who know a HEAP more about cars than me. Dyno numbers or not, do you really put MSD ignition in the same class as fuel line magnets, hyclones and electric aspiriation doovers?
All in all, thanks for the info David, I'll look into MSD when I get around to my engine upgrade. Post up if you run into any problem with the high end ignition system not playing nice with any of the stock Zook parts.
That being said I honestly belive that david was trying to say the he FELT (based on significant personal experience) rather than KNEW for a fact that his car had more power. About the dynos David sounds like a guy not shy to spend some significant coin to get the most out of his machines, why wouldn't he get the zook on a dyno at some point down the track (indeed his fairly specific claim of 318kw from a gen 3 must have been dyno'ed at some time) and a future update on this thread showing the numbers with and without MSD ingnition would surely validate his claim far better than this b*tchy back and forth ever would.
Lastly to the outers gurus who know a HEAP more about cars than me. Dyno numbers or not, do you really put MSD ignition in the same class as fuel line magnets, hyclones and electric aspiriation doovers?
All in all, thanks for the info David, I'll look into MSD when I get around to my engine upgrade.
Post up if you run into any problem with the high end ignition system not playing nice with any of the stock Zook parts.Rhett an PCRman,
I care little for money, its made to be spent on that which gives us pleasure, I buggerise around lots, try many things, trash lots, try things that are new or unheard of. Makin a cuppla hundred K a year without me family anymore, makes this easy and a pleasure.
I used to be a scientist till I got sick and tired of the many who would dispute everything, from the very smallest to the biggest, IMO just for the sake of arguing. No basis, but, big mouths.
I cannot see how offering thoughts on one type of seat, or tyres, or ignition systems differ.
I have tried a few, from my ignition systems on small and big blocks, to upgrades of computer systems on Jeeps and my Statesman with a Gen 3, such is to say, my zook, I have never spent such a tiny amount for such a vast difference.
Dyno, yes, a pleasure to drive my Gen 3 that I spent over 5 grand on engine improvements to get 318kw, bin on a dyno a few times, but to drive my lil zook over 700k, for a dyno, then back, fair go, I love my back, not hate it.
All I can say, in all honesty, is she is vastly different, pulls harder in lower revs, gear changes are far less, I have no idea why I did not go this route a long time ago. Der. $200, beer money.
I drive by the seat of my pants, and of course by my ear, the sound of my exhaust tells me far far more than any taco or dyno figures when I am lining up a hill that has yet to be beaten, and am being watched, and hate loosing, no matter the cost. Once a hill has been beaten, its time to upgrade to take on the next.
I'm sorry if I cannot back this up with scientific data, I love my baja claws, but cannot back this love up with data stating categoricus why they are better that SSTs et al, nor why my aluminium radiator is running my engine cooler that a copper model of the same size.
Just my honest opinion, I'm sorry I have created such a stir.
Thanks for the heads up.
I care little for money, its made to be spent on that which gives us pleasure, I buggerise around lots, try many things, trash lots, try things that are new or unheard of. Makin a cuppla hundred K a year without me family anymore, makes this easy and a pleasure.
I used to be a scientist till I got sick and tired of the many who would dispute everything, from the very smallest to the biggest, IMO just for the sake of arguing. No basis, but, big mouths.
I cannot see how offering thoughts on one type of seat, or tyres, or ignition systems differ.
I have tried a few, from my ignition systems on small and big blocks, to upgrades of computer systems on Jeeps and my Statesman with a Gen 3, such is to say, my zook, I have never spent such a tiny amount for such a vast difference.
Dyno, yes, a pleasure to drive my Gen 3 that I spent over 5 grand on engine improvements to get 318kw, bin on a dyno a few times, but to drive my lil zook over 700k, for a dyno, then back, fair go, I love my back, not hate it.
All I can say, in all honesty, is she is vastly different, pulls harder in lower revs, gear changes are far less, I have no idea why I did not go this route a long time ago. Der. $200, beer money.
I drive by the seat of my pants, and of course by my ear, the sound of my exhaust tells me far far more than any taco or dyno figures when I am lining up a hill that has yet to be beaten, and am being watched, and hate loosing, no matter the cost. Once a hill has been beaten, its time to upgrade to take on the next.
I'm sorry if I cannot back this up with scientific data, I love my baja claws, but cannot back this love up with data stating categoricus why they are better that SSTs et al, nor why my aluminium radiator is running my engine cooler that a copper model of the same size.
Just my honest opinion, I'm sorry I have created such a stir.
Thanks for the heads up.
OK back to spark ignition. Could some of you guys possibly clarify something for me. How does upgrading your ignition system improve performance at all?
I am under the impression that you only need a certain amount of energy (spark) to ignite the air-fuel mixture, and that this required value is in fact very small. Once the flame begins propagation any extra spark energy is purely a waste. Despite the tiny amount of energy required to begin propagation, most engine designers engineer it so the spark system whacks out a huge margin over, so that even a flogged out system should still ignite the fuel. So therefore why would adding even more energy help power, torque, effieciency etc????
I am actually basing allot of my understanding here on rocket engine ignition, so I could be a bit off, but I cannot see a huge fundamental difference, they are both spark ignition engines. My knowledge of chemistry and electronics is alright, though not great I will admit. Please clarify for me if you can, the more in depth the response the better, this has my ineterest.
Thanks.
I am under the impression that you only need a certain amount of energy (spark) to ignite the air-fuel mixture, and that this required value is in fact very small. Once the flame begins propagation any extra spark energy is purely a waste. Despite the tiny amount of energy required to begin propagation, most engine designers engineer it so the spark system whacks out a huge margin over, so that even a flogged out system should still ignite the fuel. So therefore why would adding even more energy help power, torque, effieciency etc????
I am actually basing allot of my understanding here on rocket engine ignition, so I could be a bit off, but I cannot see a huge fundamental difference, they are both spark ignition engines. My knowledge of chemistry and electronics is alright, though not great I will admit. Please clarify for me if you can, the more in depth the response the better, this has my ineterest.
Thanks.
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
X2Highway-Star wrote:OK back to spark ignition. Could some of you guys possibly clarify something for me. How does upgrading your ignition system improve performance at all?
The MSD website talks about sparking twice but some more info on how the system might translate to more power/torque would be appreciated
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