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I'm about to build a new comp truck as the old ones is to big and heavy. We are going to use a Patrol as a base but the truck will only weight about 1500kg at the most. This time we are going rear steer as well and I'm wondering has anyone one used a 60 series diff for rear steer?
I'm thinking that a 60 series diff with long fields and superior centres would be pretty strong plus flipping the diff to make it high pinion and get the drive around the right way but I'm wonder what options there are to strengthen up around the knuckles etc?
Your going rear engine? A set of 60 series Longfields wont cope in a rear steer aplication at 1500kg. Although i think you would be breaking knuckles off just as often as breaking the longfields.
RUFF wrote:Your going rear engine? A set of 60 series Longfields wont cope in a rear steer aplication at 1500kg. Although i think you would be breaking knuckles off just as often as breaking the longfields.
That would be 1 light weight truck unless you are using some fairly small driveline components eg eng,gearbox transfer.
Petes new truck is fairly light and its somewhere around 2000kg from memory what a couple of people told me
GU 42td wagon for touring
GU ute for the fun stuff
http://www.allterrain4wd.org.au/
MQ diffs
Alloy wheels
About 10L of fuel
3S-GE Camry 2.0 engine and auto transaxle - No transfer case
single fibreglass seat
perspex skins
no gauges, no room.
2" airshocks, no air bumps
3 link + panhard front, 5 link rear.
Most SWB suzuki sierras are near to 1200Kg with any amount of recovery equipment in them, on 34" tyres, with sierra diffs, alloy 1.3 litre motor and a gearbox and transfer than don't weight more than about 50kg for the lot.
Good on you to shoot for 1500Kg, but it's going to be very, very hard. That's about 150KG lighter than a petrol single cab 1988 hilux.
There's a pretty good thread on lightweight cars on pirate.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
The cage will be all chromolly, the body GQ extra cab, all kelar panels moulded off GQ panels, no roof, no dash, basic electrics, tube rear end etc. 1500kg is my aim which I think is possable if you keep everything basic. If it ends up weighing 2 tonne I wont be overly dissapointed.
I may just go a rear disconnect rather then rear steer for now depending on time and dollars. I'm looking at all possable avenues before jumping in and building something i'll regret.
turbo gu wrote:That would be 1 light weight truck unless you are using some fairly small driveline components eg eng,gearbox transfer.
Petes new truck is fairly light and its somewhere around 2000kg from memory what a couple of people told me
A large amount of the weight in Pete's would be in the chunky diffs...
I agree with Ruff that the longfields won't survive rear steer.
turbo gu wrote:That would be 1 light weight truck unless you are using some fairly small driveline components eg eng,gearbox transfer.
Petes new truck is fairly light and its somewhere around 2000kg from memory what a couple of people told me
A large amount of the weight in Pete's would be in the chunky diffs...
I agree with Ruff that the longfields won't survive rear steer.
about 400 to 500 kg i think some said
GU 42td wagon for touring
GU ute for the fun stuff
http://www.allterrain4wd.org.au/
I spose its all a comparison issue and the required final package?
In terms of strength a 'built' 60 series front used in the rear would be an upgrade over the stock H233 you have now. The 30 spline longfields will last better than the brittle POS H233 axles. and as for the knuckles handling the weight, well they handle it fine up front with an engine above them don't they? A brace kit would suffice, the step-down on the swivel balls is 60mm dia on toy's and only 55mm on GQ/GU, so add a few braces and all is good. Also do the MARLIN kingpin upgrade which make them only 2% weaker than D60 (close enough!). As for the R&P a toy 9.5" can be built very strong anyway, so the difference there is minimal.
Another option is get a MQ H260 ($100 + a free car ), get an airlocker, change the side gears to D60 35spline (interchangeable - light machine) then put D60 steering knuckles on it. The only downside is the front pinion on H260's as they are the same diameter as H233's.
The toyota 10.5" is another good option.
1MadEngineer wrote:I spose its all a comparison issue and the required final package?
In terms of strength a 'built' 60 series front used in the rear would be an upgrade over the stock H233 you have now. The 30 spline longfields will last better than the brittle POS H233 axles. and as for the knuckles handling the weight, well they handle it fine up front with an engine above them don't they? A brace kit would suffice, the step-down on the swivel balls is 60mm dia on toy's and only 55mm on GQ/GU, so add a few braces and all is good. Also do the MARLIN kingpin upgrade which make them only 2% weaker than D60 (close enough!). As for the R&P a toy 9.5" can be built very strong anyway, so the difference there is minimal.
Another option is get a MQ H260 ($100 + a free car ), get an airlocker, change the side gears to D60 35spline (interchangeable - light machine) then put D60 steering knuckles on it. The only downside is the front pinion on H260's as they are the same diameter as H233's.
The toyota 10.5" is another good option.
Thanks for the advise. It's not so much the knuckles I was worried about it was bolting hydro steer to the top of the king pins which in standard form don't look very strong.
I've been running full hydro on my Toyota front end for 3 years. Haven't had a trouble with the knuckles or steering arms. I built the axle housings and I haven't had trouble with them either.
4130 won't make it any lighter - 15% of steel weight used in my case only as it has roughly the same specific gravity as mild steel. The rules for cams etc say 2.5mm wall Mild Steel or 2.4mm 4130 etc
In our sport short radius dies are used and wall thickness needs to be kept high in order to bend the tube. I try to stick to 2.4mm in all bent areas which isn't much lighter gauge then what you would use if it were mild steel. I used thinner wall in all non bent areas and that's where the saving is. What's also a problem is thin wall is more expensive than heavy wall per metre to its use is cost prohibitive. My buggy owes me $4600 in 4130 and I haven't bought all the plate yet - which makes the tube look cheap!!! If I knew it would blow out I would have bought dom, but I tend to under estimate these things. The other thing too is dom is not as nice to weld with the tig.
To save weight you will need 'drag' dies - where they use 6" or 7" CLR and can bend 1.6mm wall - but CCDA will not allow that.
I am aiming for 1400 - 1500 kg and I have no body at all. 6l, th400, atlas 2, ifs / irs, no winch, no glass, etc
Good luck with the build, but i feel 1800kg is more realistic.
regards
Bru
ADHD Racing would like to thank Mrs Bru @ Sunshine Coast Developmental Physiotherapy - www.scdphysio.com.au , Ryano @ Fourbys www.generaltire.com.au Blitzkrieg Motorsport
turbo gu wrote:That would be 1 light weight truck unless you are using some fairly small driveline components eg eng,gearbox transfer.
Petes new truck is fairly light and its somewhere around 2000kg from memory what a couple of people told me
my bundy is 1720kg thats, alloy V8 stock auto from halfcut, Lt230 with reduction gears bar work etc etc
Evan
www.energizedracing.com
Support from:
Locktup 4x4
Arb Newcastle
Genr8 LED lighting
Yukon Gear & Axle
Overkill Engineering
Ruffstuff Specialties
1MadEngineer wrote: Also do the MARLIN kingpin upgrade which make them only 2% weaker than D60 (close enough!). As for the R&P a toy 9.5" can be built very strong anyway, so the difference there is minimal.
.
Marlin Crawler has revolutionized the Toyota 4WD world again, this time with the world's strongest 1979-85 Toyota steering pivot system in the world.
Our new Competition Series Steering Upgrade Kit replaces the stock wimpy 17mm pivots with beefy 25mm Chromoly pins. These days with larger tires and hydro-assist steering systems, we often come across Toyota axles with blown up knuckle bearings or even worse, sheared knuckle pivot pins. The Marlin Crawler solution to this weakness starts with pivot pins that are 68% larger than stock and knuckle bearings that are 27% stronger with an increased contact area. These puppies are only 2% smaller than Dana 60 parts!!
Mick. wrote:I'm about to build a new comp truck as the old ones is to big and heavy. We are going to use a Patrol as a base but the truck will only weight about 1500kg at the most. This time we are going rear steer as well and I'm wondering has anyone one used a 60 series diff for rear steer?
I'm thinking that a 60 series diff with long fields and superior centres would be pretty strong plus flipping the diff to make it high pinion and get the drive around the right way but I'm wonder what options there are to strengthen up around the knuckles etc?
Any help or advise would be appreciated.
Cheers Mick.
You would'nt need to flip it if it was in the rear it would be the right direction. I dont know about the longs in the rear there is a bit of extra load on the rear axle may be ok if your gentle with it and dont steer under power, What tyres are you planing on running? I have thought about this in my buggy yet to try it but using a hilux front diff same axles though on 37" stickies. Only other real option is Dana's or mog, mogs may be cheaper after you purchase long's, Locker and Diff gears just a thought.
TEAM PIRATE navi Tuff Truck 2010 Winners!!!!!
Dreaming of getting back to KOH
If it was me I would do it. But you would have to be really carefull how you drive.
I think a longfielded steering 60 series axle would be about as strong as a rear hilux axle or even a rear 60 series axle with stock shafts. But it would only be about the same strength as long everything was in very good condition.
Things like steering arm studs and CVs would have to meticulously maintained to keep the rear axle reliable...in a comp like tuff truck you would have to look at this stuff after every stage. As long as the CVs dont click and the steering arms stud bolts are very tight they would easily be as strong as a stock hilux rear IMO.
So it really depends on how well you can drive and how well you can maintain your stuff...throw a mog or D60 in there with cromo shafts and you can lay into the throttle with little care or maintaince. Put a longfielded 60 series back and really work hard to maintain it and you will definately have a more capable truck IMO.
If you have low HP (like a suzuki or hilux) then its a no brainer...it will survive easily provided you maintain it. With bigger HP (6cyl or v8 with correct gearing...say 40:1 or deeper with an auto) then you would need to be carefull but still definately doable IMO.
Mick. wrote:I'm about to build a new comp truck as the old ones is to big and heavy. We are going to use a Patrol as a base but the truck will only weight about 1500kg at the most. This time we are going rear steer as well and I'm wondering has anyone one used a 60 series diff for rear steer?
I'm thinking that a 60 series diff with long fields and superior centres would be pretty strong plus flipping the diff to make it high pinion and get the drive around the right way but I'm wonder what options there are to strengthen up around the knuckles etc?
Any help or advise would be appreciated.
Cheers Mick.
You would'nt need to flip it if it was in the rear it would be the right direction. I dont know about the longs in the rear there is a bit of extra load on the rear axle may be ok if your gentle with it and dont steer under power, What tyres are you planing on running? I have thought about this in my buggy yet to try it but using a hilux front diff same axles though on 37" stickies. Only other real option is Dana's or mog, mogs may be cheaper after you purchase long's, Locker and Diff gears just a thought.
I'm planing on running 40 or 42 inch stickies but as mentioned it's going to be very light.
Strange Rover wrote:If it was me I would do it. But you would have to be really carefull how you drive.
I think a longfielded steering 60 series axle would be about as strong as a rear hilux axle or even a rear 60 series axle with stock shafts. But it would only be about the same strength as long everything was in very good condition.
Things like steering arm studs and CVs would have to meticulously maintained to keep the rear axle reliable...in a comp like tuff truck you would have to look at this stuff after every stage. As long as the CVs dont click and the steering arms stud bolts are very tight they would easily be as strong as a stock hilux rear IMO.
So it really depends on how well you can drive and how well you can maintain your stuff...throw a mog or D60 in there with cromo shafts and you can lay into the throttle with little care or maintaince. Put a longfielded 60 series back and really work hard to maintain it and you will definately have a more capable truck IMO.
If you have low HP (like a suzuki or hilux) then its a no brainer...it will survive easily provided you maintain it. With bigger HP (6cyl or v8 with correct gearing...say 40:1 or deeper with an auto) then you would need to be carefull but still definately doable IMO.
Sam
Thanks mate, I've been looking at all the different ways of strengthening the 60 series diff. I've had a good look threw the marlin crawler web site and found these.
Chromoly 4340 front axles with a 10 year warrenty
chromoly 4340 UM06 marfield CVs with 2 year warrenty
25mm steering upgrade with high steer
Yukon diff centres which are suposed to be stronger then factory.
Would these products be strong enough or are there better options?
I know you are planning to do it on a budget, but if that is just going to mean broken CVs and/or axels, then is it really worth the effort?
Doing a 60 series diff with the parts that you mentioned gets it to its strongest possible configuration, and then that is not really strong enough for a rear steer application.
I know the argument that Longfields etc hold up fine in the front with an engine over them, but you have to consider that the rear suffers far more load in uphill climbs than the front ever does. You would have to be reversing up the hill climbs to get the same amount of load as what the rear faces each time. That is where the built 60 with Longs and cryo'd R&Ps are going to be at their greatest load.
As stated by SamO, though, with an auto and a steady foot you could make it work, but the benefits would be outweighed by the downsides, IMHO, if you use Toyota parts.
If you save a bit more coin, look at options such as D60 with chromo axels, CTM unis and Dedenbear knuckles, or 9" Hi pinion with chromo axels, CTM unis and spidertrax knuckles. These will give you far more steering angle than the Toyota parts and can be built upon to gain even more strength...albeit for more $$$.
im looking ar putting rear steer in the bundy mick, but im not going to do it till i can afford a set of spider 9s with Mega HI9 centeres. do it once and do it strong
Evan
www.energizedracing.com
Support from:
Locktup 4x4
Arb Newcastle
Genr8 LED lighting
Yukon Gear & Axle
Overkill Engineering
Ruffstuff Specialties
evanstaniland wrote:im looking ar putting rear steer in the bundy mick, but im not going to do it till i can afford a set of spider 9s with Mega HI9 centeres. do it once and do it strong
Evan
I have other ideas now after speaking to Greg from DGR.
evanstaniland wrote:im looking ar putting rear steer in the bundy mick, but im not going to do it till i can afford a set of spider 9s with Mega HI9 centeres. do it once and do it strong
Evan
I have other ideas now after speaking to Greg from DGR.
Trust me it will be strong too.
Cheers Mick.
Good good look forward too seeing the finished project. Greg is pretty switched on i'am sure he will steer( sorry funny moment) you in the right direction.
Cheers Ben
note to self dont post after JD
TEAM PIRATE navi Tuff Truck 2010 Winners!!!!!
Dreaming of getting back to KOH
evanstaniland wrote:im looking ar putting rear steer in the bundy mick, but im not going to do it till i can afford a set of spider 9s with Mega HI9 centeres. do it once and do it strong
Evan
I have other ideas now after speaking to Greg from DGR.
Trust me it will be strong too.
Cheers Mick.
Good good look forward too seeing the finished project. Greg is pretty switched on i'am sure he will steer( sorry funny moment) you in the right direction.
Cheers Ben
note to self dont post after JD
I was talking to Greg for about 20 minutes today and he had some very cool ideas but simple ideas.
The new doner 4wd turned up today so i've got some work to do.
unless you are using some fairly small driveline components eg eng,gearbox transfer.
), get an airlocker, change the side gears to D60 35spline (interchangeable - light machine) then put D60 steering knuckles on it. The only downside is the front pinion on H260's as they are the same diameter as H233's.
