I have an 80 series landcuiser with a 4wd systems smart solenoid and two new extreme exide 85ah batteries (lead acid). I don' think i'm going to have a enough power once the warmer months arrive - 80 waceo a bit thirsty! At the moment provided I do a bit of driving no problems (one day and half out of battery maybe two days. Come summer weekend up the river(hot parked -not much driving) pretty sure i'm going to have problem!
Option 1. Solar - think its a bit too expensive
Option 2. Deep cycle second battery (faster charging?)
Option 3. small generator and good battery charger or a christie Engineering battery charger (alternator attached to 4 stroke honda motor)
Just looking looking for someone who has been they done that any ideas welcomed!
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Dual battery upgrade. waceo 80 litre fridge
Moderator: -Scott-
I have a 60l engel fridge and we do a lot of remote area camping, which is basically base camping for extended periods. We do a lot up in Northern Australia, so the fridge/power system cops a flogging. This is the system I swear by and has proven itself worth the money.
We found that the fridge runs about 16 hours a day, cycling on and off for maybe 20 mins at a time, more in the middle of the day. Bear in mind we do everything to reduce the heat, shade, open windows, keep it shut as much as possible etc.
I run three 85 amp/hr deep cycle batteries, that are charged with 2 off 60w Canon Solar panels, the sort that charge even when partially shaded. These pump in on average 9amps/hr in the middle of the day and tails off to zero around dusk. The batteries remain fully charged and well ahead of the fridge consumption during the day. The advantage is we have fully charged batteries over the night period, and its still hot, so the fridge cycles all night as well.
The secret to long battery life is to keep the depth of discharge low, by that I mean, have a big reserve of capacity in your battery system, so the battery voltage does not drop below 12.3V. If you do your research you will find that you want the less voltage drop you can get. I set my system up and generally in Vicytoria, during summer, my battery voltage is at 12.4-12.5 in the morning with hot nights. Up north this is 12.3. You will see people saying they let their batteries go way down to 10.5 and the fridge is still working - well not for long as that level of discharge is only handled by a very few brands of battery, and they still suffer permanent damage.
You also need to ideally charge the batteries with a 'smart charger' device of some kind, usually sold as either a 3 or 4 stage charger, in order to get good deep charging happening. Running the car for an hour down the road will give you a rapid surface charge, but this quickly drops off - you need an absorbtion charge cycle as well. I have a unit made by Sterling Power in UK which does both the 4 stage charging and also charges at the correct voltage to get 100% capacity from your batteries. My alternator is a modified Bosch unit and charges at 14.8V instead of the normal 14.3-14.4 which most vehicle alternators are set at. At 14.3/4 you are only getting a 70% charge, so even more reason to go bigger in your battery bank, as you are starting out with a 70% charged battery to begin with.
Hope this is not too much info, or too negative. In summary, if using a standard vehicle alternator for charge top up, go as large a capacity as you can, but do the consumption maths as well to gauge were you need to be - you might need to have 4 batteries if the truth be known. If you don't care about short battery life, run them down by all means. If you care about long battery life, keep the discharge shallow.
I have not used a Cristie Charger, but they are just a surrogate vehicle charger, so really no better, - they don't do anything your vehicle alternator will do.
My system allows me to get about 7-8 yrs from my deep cycle batteries as they are shallow charged. I have just changed over from Exide Deep Cycles to Century Marine Deep Cycles, so am interested to see how the change is . The Centuries are almost twice the price of the Exides, so interesting trial. The solar panels are around $700 each. DO NOT get conned into putting a regulator in line to 'wash off' excess charging. Its a crock. The panels rarely put so much juice into the batteries to either boil them or over charge them, yet you suffer a constant voltage drop through the controller. I ran one for 6 yrs before discovering, after it died, that I was losing a full 1.5V of charge!
Hope this helps. Its a system that works, its expensive to set up, but you only do it once and the food and beer will always stay fresh and cold.
We found that the fridge runs about 16 hours a day, cycling on and off for maybe 20 mins at a time, more in the middle of the day. Bear in mind we do everything to reduce the heat, shade, open windows, keep it shut as much as possible etc.
I run three 85 amp/hr deep cycle batteries, that are charged with 2 off 60w Canon Solar panels, the sort that charge even when partially shaded. These pump in on average 9amps/hr in the middle of the day and tails off to zero around dusk. The batteries remain fully charged and well ahead of the fridge consumption during the day. The advantage is we have fully charged batteries over the night period, and its still hot, so the fridge cycles all night as well.
The secret to long battery life is to keep the depth of discharge low, by that I mean, have a big reserve of capacity in your battery system, so the battery voltage does not drop below 12.3V. If you do your research you will find that you want the less voltage drop you can get. I set my system up and generally in Vicytoria, during summer, my battery voltage is at 12.4-12.5 in the morning with hot nights. Up north this is 12.3. You will see people saying they let their batteries go way down to 10.5 and the fridge is still working - well not for long as that level of discharge is only handled by a very few brands of battery, and they still suffer permanent damage.
You also need to ideally charge the batteries with a 'smart charger' device of some kind, usually sold as either a 3 or 4 stage charger, in order to get good deep charging happening. Running the car for an hour down the road will give you a rapid surface charge, but this quickly drops off - you need an absorbtion charge cycle as well. I have a unit made by Sterling Power in UK which does both the 4 stage charging and also charges at the correct voltage to get 100% capacity from your batteries. My alternator is a modified Bosch unit and charges at 14.8V instead of the normal 14.3-14.4 which most vehicle alternators are set at. At 14.3/4 you are only getting a 70% charge, so even more reason to go bigger in your battery bank, as you are starting out with a 70% charged battery to begin with.
Hope this is not too much info, or too negative. In summary, if using a standard vehicle alternator for charge top up, go as large a capacity as you can, but do the consumption maths as well to gauge were you need to be - you might need to have 4 batteries if the truth be known. If you don't care about short battery life, run them down by all means. If you care about long battery life, keep the discharge shallow.
I have not used a Cristie Charger, but they are just a surrogate vehicle charger, so really no better, - they don't do anything your vehicle alternator will do.
My system allows me to get about 7-8 yrs from my deep cycle batteries as they are shallow charged. I have just changed over from Exide Deep Cycles to Century Marine Deep Cycles, so am interested to see how the change is . The Centuries are almost twice the price of the Exides, so interesting trial. The solar panels are around $700 each. DO NOT get conned into putting a regulator in line to 'wash off' excess charging. Its a crock. The panels rarely put so much juice into the batteries to either boil them or over charge them, yet you suffer a constant voltage drop through the controller. I ran one for 6 yrs before discovering, after it died, that I was losing a full 1.5V of charge!
Hope this helps. Its a system that works, its expensive to set up, but you only do it once and the food and beer will always stay fresh and cold.
This statement is widely found across the internet, but is generally taken out of context. As has been explained here on more than one occasion, a standard alternator is capable if fully charging a battery - if given sufficient time.PBBIZ2 wrote:At 14.3/4 you are only getting a 70% charge, so even more reason to go bigger in your battery bank, as you are starting out with a 70% charged battery to begin with.
This is one approach, but there are other options.PBBIZ2 wrote:Hope this is not too much info, or too negative. In summary, if using a standard vehicle alternator for charge top up, go as large a capacity as you can, but do the consumption maths as well to gauge were you need to be - you might need to have 4 batteries if the truth be known. If you don't care about short battery life, run them down by all means. If you care about long battery life, keep the discharge shallow.
As noted, some batteries are much more tolerant of deeper discharge, so it's important to consider this in your calculations - run fewer (better) batteries. Another option would be to run two batteries to a deeper depth of discharge, and replace them more often. Outlaying less, more often. Do the maths both ways.
A decent regulator doesn't "wash off" excess charge - it regulates voltage into the battery (which will regulate current all by itself) to avoid overcharging, which is not a "con". Most "12V" solar panels are capable of delivering far too much voltage for a lead acid battery, so, under the right circumstances, a good regulator should be "losing" 1.5V (or more.) Ultimately, voltage figures alone are irrelevant - you should be looking at power into the regulator, and power out.PBBIZ2 wrote:DO NOT get conned into putting a regulator in line to 'wash off' excess charging. Its a crock. The panels rarely put so much juice into the batteries to either boil them or over charge them, yet you suffer a constant voltage drop through the controller. I ran one for 6 yrs before discovering, after it died, that I was losing a full 1.5V of charge!
Scott,
interesting comments and I can see the logic, but to some degree differ in opinion.
Regarding charge voltage, there is conversely more than enough material and science to sustain my comment regarding the 14.8V-14.3V charge profile of modern day alternators. Most vehicles getting around today and running dual battery kits and standard alternators probably don't pay too much attention to the depth of discharge and state of recharge when they get out camping or 4wd-ing 4-5 times a year- it isn't a priority or anything to worry about. Deep cycling a battery under these circumstances won't show up in any real life reduction, but will if you deep discharge the majority of batteries on the market, and then charge to a moderate voltage, in this case 14.4V often enough. Under this system the battery is likely to be buggered in three years or less due to sulphation anyway. I have only been running this advanced set-up on my vehicle for 7 yrs, but the life and longevity of charge is noticeable as against the charge regime from a standard internally regulated alternator.
Secondy, charging at higher voltages generates higher heat into the battery. I do lose water at charge rates of 14.8V over the boost charge period, which I am aware of and willing to put up with. You cannot charge low maintenance or sealed/gel batteries at these voltages either, which I mistakenly didn't mention, because they will boil/gas themselves dry. You can only do this higher charge on batteries that can be re-filled with water. Again, another clarification, my error in omitting it originally.
You will also note that your standard 240V battery cahrger charges at close to 15V - not 14.3V. This is done for a reason, not by accident. I am sure there is no valid econonical reason to build a transformer to charge at 15V as against 14.3, as its easy to do, so suggest it is for the functional reason of fully charging the battery. The good chargers bulk charge, dwell to let the surface charge die, recharge, reat until the surface cahge sys at circa 12.6-12.8V then go into a lower voltage charge of circa 13.5V. If the surface charge drops, the charge voltage boosts back up to the 15V region. I mention this only in support of the charge theory.(lower charge for the sealed/gel style)
I am told also that some of the very modern vehicles on the road are particularly intolerent of these higher voltages, so again, this higher charge system may not suit the vehicle, but should not be discounted as a valid means of ensuring full charge. I cannot comment as to whether you can get the same level or depth of charge into an identical battery charged at 14.3V as against one charged at 14.8V with a bulk charge/conditioning charge system - but the science doesn't support it from what I know.
Regarding the regulator, perhaps my wording was poor, and I accept the criticism. I will reword my comment. Solar panels are rated at 1000w/m2 light level at 25 deg C. Under ideal conditions, most 12V panels will certainly produce 16-17V. From my experience I am honestly yet to see anything above 15.5V on my panels. The voltage is less as is the current output to a noticeable degree above 38 degC. I have both digital volt and amp meter on my system so am sure of this over a period covering 10 years of use.
So, since our light intensity levels right the way across Australia don't exceed 650W at any place at any time, according to the latest data, it stands to reason that the panel performance is going to be way down. To put a device in line that limits this voltage to protect high charge makes no sense. Also to put a device that limits current is stupid also.I got caught with this, and ran a Bobier reg for many years in the belief I was doing the right thing. I am now happy it is out of the circuit completely as it cannot limit the voltage/current in any way. Also, bear in mind that the performance of the panels is linked to angle of inclination etc, so I really only get a couple of hours at best at max voltage charge anyway, which is hardly enough to worry about. I don't get 17V out of the panels, and by the specs the canon panels never will give this, except during the initial 'break-in period' as they call it. I think the regulators that are sold as part of solar panel installations are designed more for multi panel large solar installations where many more watts or KW in some cases are being punched into a bank of batteries.I agree they have a use and application, but not in a small 120W system as described. From my experience, save the money on the regulator and put it into your battery selection.
Lastly, keep the depth of discharge shallow and any battery will give sustained life, provided it is charged adequately and maintained.
I don't profess to know everything about charging batteries, but this info is furnished for appraisal based on solid experience. The reader is free to agree or disagree . Challenge it by all means, as you may have something that we can all learn from.
interesting comments and I can see the logic, but to some degree differ in opinion.
Regarding charge voltage, there is conversely more than enough material and science to sustain my comment regarding the 14.8V-14.3V charge profile of modern day alternators. Most vehicles getting around today and running dual battery kits and standard alternators probably don't pay too much attention to the depth of discharge and state of recharge when they get out camping or 4wd-ing 4-5 times a year- it isn't a priority or anything to worry about. Deep cycling a battery under these circumstances won't show up in any real life reduction, but will if you deep discharge the majority of batteries on the market, and then charge to a moderate voltage, in this case 14.4V often enough. Under this system the battery is likely to be buggered in three years or less due to sulphation anyway. I have only been running this advanced set-up on my vehicle for 7 yrs, but the life and longevity of charge is noticeable as against the charge regime from a standard internally regulated alternator.
Secondy, charging at higher voltages generates higher heat into the battery. I do lose water at charge rates of 14.8V over the boost charge period, which I am aware of and willing to put up with. You cannot charge low maintenance or sealed/gel batteries at these voltages either, which I mistakenly didn't mention, because they will boil/gas themselves dry. You can only do this higher charge on batteries that can be re-filled with water. Again, another clarification, my error in omitting it originally.
You will also note that your standard 240V battery cahrger charges at close to 15V - not 14.3V. This is done for a reason, not by accident. I am sure there is no valid econonical reason to build a transformer to charge at 15V as against 14.3, as its easy to do, so suggest it is for the functional reason of fully charging the battery. The good chargers bulk charge, dwell to let the surface charge die, recharge, reat until the surface cahge sys at circa 12.6-12.8V then go into a lower voltage charge of circa 13.5V. If the surface charge drops, the charge voltage boosts back up to the 15V region. I mention this only in support of the charge theory.(lower charge for the sealed/gel style)
I am told also that some of the very modern vehicles on the road are particularly intolerent of these higher voltages, so again, this higher charge system may not suit the vehicle, but should not be discounted as a valid means of ensuring full charge. I cannot comment as to whether you can get the same level or depth of charge into an identical battery charged at 14.3V as against one charged at 14.8V with a bulk charge/conditioning charge system - but the science doesn't support it from what I know.
Regarding the regulator, perhaps my wording was poor, and I accept the criticism. I will reword my comment. Solar panels are rated at 1000w/m2 light level at 25 deg C. Under ideal conditions, most 12V panels will certainly produce 16-17V. From my experience I am honestly yet to see anything above 15.5V on my panels. The voltage is less as is the current output to a noticeable degree above 38 degC. I have both digital volt and amp meter on my system so am sure of this over a period covering 10 years of use.
So, since our light intensity levels right the way across Australia don't exceed 650W at any place at any time, according to the latest data, it stands to reason that the panel performance is going to be way down. To put a device in line that limits this voltage to protect high charge makes no sense. Also to put a device that limits current is stupid also.I got caught with this, and ran a Bobier reg for many years in the belief I was doing the right thing. I am now happy it is out of the circuit completely as it cannot limit the voltage/current in any way. Also, bear in mind that the performance of the panels is linked to angle of inclination etc, so I really only get a couple of hours at best at max voltage charge anyway, which is hardly enough to worry about. I don't get 17V out of the panels, and by the specs the canon panels never will give this, except during the initial 'break-in period' as they call it. I think the regulators that are sold as part of solar panel installations are designed more for multi panel large solar installations where many more watts or KW in some cases are being punched into a bank of batteries.I agree they have a use and application, but not in a small 120W system as described. From my experience, save the money on the regulator and put it into your battery selection.
Lastly, keep the depth of discharge shallow and any battery will give sustained life, provided it is charged adequately and maintained.
I don't profess to know everything about charging batteries, but this info is furnished for appraisal based on solid experience. The reader is free to agree or disagree . Challenge it by all means, as you may have something that we can all learn from.
Everybody is entitled to opinions.PBBIZ2 wrote:Scott,
interesting comments and I can see the logic, but to some degree differ in opinion.
A traditional lead-acid storage battery will fully charge at a float voltage of 13.8V. Unfortunately, it takes considerable time, which is where the "70%" comment comes in - a standard alternator system, charging at 14 to 14.5V, can easily charge the battery to 70% in a few hours, but the last 30% takes much longer (as the charge current drops off as the battery charges). So, for somebody in your situation, discharging and recharging every day, a standard alternator system typically doesn't have enough time to fully charge the batteries.PBBIZ2 wrote:You will also note that your standard 240V battery cahrger charges at close to 15V - not 14.3V. This is done for a reason, not by accident. I am sure there is no valid econonical reason to build a transformer to charge at 15V as against 14.3, as its easy to do, so suggest it is for the functional reason of fully charging the battery. The good chargers bulk charge, dwell to let the surface charge die, recharge, reat until the surface cahge sys at circa 12.6-12.8V then go into a lower voltage charge of circa 13.5V. If the surface charge drops, the charge voltage boosts back up to the 15V region. I mention this only in support of the charge theory.(lower charge for the sealed/gel style)
The multi-stage chargers use higher voltage to pump charge in quickly (while still ensuring current is at a safe level), then drop the voltage to a safe float level to avoid damaging the batteries. Float charging above 14V will "boil off" electrolyte, and ultimately shorten the life of the battery.
If you're aware of the implications of a higher charge voltage, and manage the system properly (such as regular replacement of lost water) this is a good solution. For people less technically savvy, such a solution is more likely to be mis-managed, and ultimately shorten the life of the batteries.
I think modern "calcium" batteries use a higher charge voltage than traditional lead-acid batteries - but I've had little to do with them, so I'll leave that subject alone.PBBIZ2 wrote:I am told also that some of the very modern vehicles on the road are particularly intolerent of these higher voltages, so again, this higher charge system may not suit the vehicle, but should not be discounted as a valid means of ensuring full charge.
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