Why are ZD30 engines (in Patrols) so inherently bad?

[TheOtherLeft]

I know ZD30's get a very bad rap in the Patrols, having been named the Grenade, but just why are they so bad?

I understand one of the big reasons is due to the MAF sensor being coated in oil and hence the ECU thinking it's running lean and hence leads to overfueling which leads to the turbo overspooling. This then leads to a holed piston and kaboom.

I think people have installed Provents to stop oil being drawn back past the MAF via the EGR but is it really that simple?

The Navara's run ZD30's and haven't had this problem due to a different turbo setup???

I'm not knocking Nissans but just looking at it from a technical perspective. Granted a lot of people have examined this issue but am curious what other causes could lead to them grenadeing (not all of them but enough to be a problem).

Thanks,

[crankycruiser]

Wait for it .............

[NCpaj]

Why are ZD30 engines (in Patrols) so inherently bad?






Becasue no one taught them how to use the search function

[-Scott-]

I think you've nailed the question; they're not inherently bad, they have a bad reputation (arguably deserved) due to a string of failures that can (reportedly) be prevented.

Although I thought the overboosting problem was resolved with a blow-off valve?

[TheOtherLeft]

Have already searched and other then adding gauges to see when it's about going to go bang or the oil issue I can't find any reference as to WHY it's such a bad engine.

[-Scott-]

Have already searched and other then adding gauges to see when it's about going to go bang or the oil issue I can't find any reference as to WHY it's such a bad engine.

It's probably not. It's probably only the over-boosting problem that causes them to fail (that would cause any engine to fail), so there's nothing inherently wrong with the engine mechanically. As I understand it, the only issue is with the engine management system (the electronic brain and/or the sensors that feed it), not the fundamental engine design. This is why it doesn't appear to have problems in the Navara, but was disastrous in the Patrol.

[bru21]

They just are.....

I have mates running massive -35+ psi boost for many years in dailys, driven hard - in pretty much standard cruiser 6's so its not the boost,

Ask Bingham how many he has killed, turbo failure 12k damage, gearbox failure, etc he is a rep though

What I think is that they are overloaded in the car they are in.
The similar motor seems to last in th Navara.

That said there are plenty of trucks with 3L motors these days - buy they have low top speeds and suitable gearing.

cheers bru

[Guy]

from what I have read part is to do with the oil being overheated and thinning out and basically crapping itself. As the turbo is also hydrauically controlled via the engine oil it casuses all sorts of issues keeping the turbo vane geometry correct creating a bit of a run away scenario .. the harder its worked the hotter the oil gets the more it fuels and boosts etc.
A few simple guages would resolve alot of the issues along with a decent oil cooler.
I would run a boost gauge, and pyro as a minimum on ANY turbo diesal motor I owned ZD30 or otherwise.

[Skegbudley]

from what I have read part is to do with the oil being overheated and thinning out and basically crapping itself. As the turbo is also hydrauically controlled via the engine oil it casuses all sorts of issues keeping the turbo vane geometry correct creating a bit of a run away scenario .. the harder its worked the hotter the oil gets the more it fuels and boosts etc.
A few simple guages would resolve alot of the issues along with a decent oil cooler.
I would run a boost gauge, and pyro as a minimum on ANY turbo diesal motor I owned ZD30 or otherwise.

Sorry mate but apart from the adding gauges bit. You are totally wrong.
Not even close actually.

The engine actually runs pretty cool. It does not have an issue with overheating oil. If you pit shit oil in you will have issues.
Boost is controlled by a vacuum oscillator that is attached to the air filter box. It is a VNT turbo so the vanes are vacuum opperated.

[Skegbudley]

To start with. Most of the rumors and inuendo about the ZD30s issue are the result of disgruntled 4.2 owners.
Early ZD30s had oil feed issues. This was fixed by ading a longer dipstick so people put 2l more oil in.
The bulk of the issues with holes getting burnt in the tops of #3 & 4 pistons was the result of being overfueled whilst the EGR is in operation causing a massive increase in EGTs. The overfuling is normally caused by a oil & dirt contaminated MAF sensor. The reason for the extra spike in temps is because the ECU drops boost pressure when the EGR is on operation. Boost is what normally keeps the EGTs in check.

All of this is easily resolved by adding NADS and results in the engine preforming better as a added benefit.

NADS = Nissan Anti Detonation System
This system has been developed with the combined knoledge of the patrol4x4 forum.
1. Add a catch can to separate the oil vapor from the crankcase gasses before it re-enters the intake system near the MAF sensor.
2. Block the EGR. This stops soot and crap building up in the intake manifold.
3. Fit a Dawes valve by itself to limit maximum boost or fit a Dawes valve & needle valve to manually control boost. The Dawes valve will limit maximum boost and the needle valve sets the spoolup rate of the turbo. Together you end up wit a flat boost curve and power from just above idle. 6psi @ 1500rpm, 10psi @ 2000rpm, 16psi @ 2500rpm.
So much for the 4.2 owners theroy that the ZD30 has nothing below 2k. With nads fitted you will dust most worked 4.2s off the line and into the distance.
4. Fit boost & EGT gauges to monitor what is happining with the engine.

[TheOtherLeft]

All of this is easily resolved by adding NADS and results in the engine preforming better as a added benefit.

NADS = Nissan Anti Detonation System
This system has been developed with the combined knoledge of the patrol4x4 forum.
1. Add a catch can to separate the oil vapor from the crankcase gasses before it re-enters the intake system near the MAF sensor.
2. Block the EGR. This stops soot and crap building up in the intake manifold.
3. Fit a Dawes valve by itself to limit maximum boost or fit a Dawes valve & needle valve to manually control boost. The Dawes valve will limit maximum boost and the needle valve sets the spoolup rate of the turbo. Together you end up wit a flat boost curve and power from just above idle. 6psi @ 1500rpm, 10psi @ 2000rpm, 16psi @ 2500rpm.
So much for the 4.2 owners theroy that the ZD30 has nothing below 2k. With nads fitted you will dust most worked 4.2s off the line and into the distance.
4. Fit boost & EGT gauges to monitor what is happining with the engine.

As these fixes are relatively simple why wouldn't Nissan enact these changes considering it's been happening sfor the past 10 years or so? Granted blocking the EGR would affect the emissions regulations the other changes wouldn't be a problem.

[Skegbudley]

Thats easy.
Nissan do not to this day admit that there is a problem. No problem = no fix required.

As a result uf us in the patrol4x4 forum. 3 Bar racing (Manufactures of the Dawes valve) have even renamed the dawes valve to be the Nissan Patrol & TDI boost controler.
Best $35usd you will ever spend on your Patrol.
http://www.3barracing.com/product_8.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tweak'e]

ditto what Skegbudley has said.

just to add tho, early zd30 including the navara version blew holes in pistons. after 2003 (?) there is a lot less failures. the lengthened dipstick was a bandaid to make engine last til out of warranty !
no official reason for pistons going but rumored (well best reason i've heard of) to be poor pistons.

the MAF/turbo/egr related issues still remain.

[awill4x4]

And what Skegbudley likes to gloss over is that even with "Nads" fitted there are still some posters on the Patrol forum that have suffered the dreaded grenade syndrome.
Also there are currently 109 (perhaps even more) members of just the Patrol forum that have suffered from the grenade and that's just engine failures nothing else.
Regards Andrew.

[Skegbudley]

And what Skegbudley likes to gloss over is that even with "Nads" fitted there are still some posters on the Patrol forum that have suffered the dreaded grenade syndrome.
Also there are currently 109 (perhaps even more) members of just the Patrol forum that have suffered from the grenade and that's just engine failures nothing else.
Regards Andrew.

I havn't glossed over anything.
History is history.
Your outdated list is is primaraly made up of pre 2003 Patrols. We all know that these had issues.
You have also included minor issues like blown gaskets and bolt on items not made by nissan that have failed. The list includes engines that had been seriously abused & engines that had gone without oil changes for more thn 20,000km. Alot of the serious issues were caused by people continuing to drive after a minor gasket failure. Its their fault not the manufacturer. Ontop of this we have people winging that their engine has expired 6+ years after their Patrols warrenty has ended. How long do you think the factory should provide warrenty for?
Plenty of other manufacturers like Toyota have had multiple engine failures. Early 80 series ones spinning main bearings for example. Hell. Iv'e even seen 2 200 series diesels blow in the last year just driving down the M1.
Yes there have been too many failures.
Thanks to people other than you. The number of failures has decreased tenfold. How about using your skils to improve the reliability of one of the best 4wds that have ever been built instead of bagging them all the time.

[popeyehj60]

another cause to the zd30 blowing up is the intercoolers cracking and leacking.
very common even into the later models.

but the other fact is its a small motor in a heavy car. u work a motor hard it's going to retire sooner

[awill4x4]

I havn't glossed over anything.
History is history.
Your outdated list is is primaraly made up of pre 2003 Patrols. We all know that these had issues.
You have also included minor issues like blown gaskets and bolt on items not made by nissan that have failed. The list includes engines that had been seriously abused & engines that had gone without oil changes for more thn 20,000km. Alot of the serious issues were caused by people continuing to drive after a minor gasket failure. Its their fault not the manufacturer. Ontop of this we have people winging that their engine has expired 6+ years after their Patrols warrenty has ended. How long do you think the factory should provide warrenty for?
Plenty of other manufacturers like Toyota have had multiple engine failures. Early 80 series ones spinning main bearings for example. Hell. Iv'e even seen 2 200 series diesels blow in the last year just driving down the M1.
Yes there have been too many failures.
Thanks to people other than you. The number of failures has decreased tenfold. How about using your skils to improve the reliability of one of the best 4wds that have ever been built instead of bagging them all the time.

Absolute bullshit Skegbudley.
You have been a constant apologist for Nissans dismal record with the ZD30 and refuse to acknowledge the many (most) failures from regularly serviced and maintained vehicles.
The list isn't outdated, in fact it's constantly updated as more ZD30 failures are reported on the forums I frequent and is currently at around 190ish.
No minor issues on the list these are engine failures usually requiring head removal and replacement due to cracking and piston failures or both at the same time.
The vast majority of reported failures are of vehicles that have done less the 200,000 Kms this should see a diesel engine in it's prime condition but it's certainly not the case with ZD30's and anyone who buys one really must be nervously thinking is it time that this one goes as well.
Even the motoring press know of the issues and although the skate it around it diplomatically, reading between the lines it's common knowledge the engines are tainted goods.
Funnily enough the bottom ends are usually bullet proof It's always the top end that's the problem.
The failures reported on the net would be the tip of the iceberg.
As for telling everybody that they have to fit NADS to save their ZD30, what a crock of shit. No other manufacturer of diesel 4x4 engines needs these devices to prevent it's head cracking or blowing holes in pistons.
It's not my job to improve the ZD30 reliabilty how about asking Nissan?
Oh, that's right, they don't give a flying phuck and will completely ignore the issue unless dragged to Fair Trading or VCAT that's if the poor customer has the stamina and stubbornness to outlast them.
Luckily we have someone like Leroy who is pursuing his engine failure with tenacity and thankfully hasn't had to sign a confidentiality agreement like others have had to.
You will notice not once have I attacked the CRD common rail ZD's as it appears "at the moment" not to suffer the typical failures of that of the previous engine and any reported problems are anecdotal and not 1st hand.
I will continue to say the pre common rail ZD's are a pile of cr@p as in my opinion that is all they are.
Regards Andrew.

[DamTriton]

Lets keep this civil, guys.

Make it about the issue, not the person.

[Skegbudley]

Another reason the ZD30s are considdered bad is because of the tendency for people to group every single type of issue the engine has ever had and called it the same thing. Hence the grenade reference.
It astounds me that people concider things like a piston failure to be the same failure as when the Garrett turbo charger fails. Has anybody ever blamed Garrett for these failures? I don't think so.
One of the recently mentioned failures was the one where the guy complained to VCAT about it and won. People call it a grenade when the failure had nothing to do with the normal engine failure issue. Engine failure was a result of a glow plug tip breaking off and bouncing around inside the engine.


Andrew, I apoligise if I have offended you but I can not take that list seriously because of the inaccuracy of it. If things like turbo failures and admitted owner abuse (Roly being a prime example) were removed from the list I would have no issue with it.


I'm a die hard Di owner but would not own a Pre 2003 one due to the fact that I couldn't tell what the previous owner/s had done to it.
Overall I am as pissed as most people about the ZD30s issues. Nissan should have delt with it better and resloved the issues sooner. There is no argument from me about that. The difference being that I am proactive in finding a solution to current issues rather than complaining about things that happened up to 10 years ago.
If doing a few simple cheap and effective modifications to your Patrol can significantly reduce the posibility of failure. Why not do it? If doing these modifications also increases the performance and drivability of the Patrol then that is a bonus as far as I can see.

[tweak'e]

one small point.....

EGT damage is accumulative and a lot of people are only doing the mods later on, after damage has already been done.

[351ciofgrunt]

Another small point...

A longer dispstick will mean less oil volume, not more as incorrectly stated in earlier posts

[tweak'e]

my bad, should have been shortened dipstick.

[Bingham]

so basically 3L's have the backbone of a jelly fish

they being said they are great.....while under warranty (get a pen, anyone looking at one of these Write it down!) Extended warranty if you have to! and when it pays for itself, which it will, you owe me a 6pack

And by the sounds of it after spending 50+k on a new one in feb i should go straight to workshop and fit all the bits nissan refuses to to Nissan. I'll just sell when warranty is up.

I could only laugh at the girl at nissan head office who said mine blowing (06) was the first she had heard of -ever and supprising when my auto blew on another one (04) mine was the first box to....

New one (2010) did start making a funny noise from back of motor region other day (and periodically since) but can not be found by mechanics... Hopefully just somehting loose in cat or something exhaust wise.

I'll leave the maf waf and egrs to the experts..... but i'll keep driving them till cruisers fall in price... that eving said theextra fuel mine chews would prob pay for the cruiser in 3 years

[bru21]

Yep you have killed a few.

The fuel you use is 25l/100
Mine 13.5/100 (on 33's)

so assuming 10k difference in price and diesel at $1.40 - you would need to save:
25-13.5=11.5l/100 difference,
10,000/$1.40 = 7143L,

7143/11.5= 621 x 100k
or 62,111 klms to break even.

Seeing as you would not fit in a 76 and would cry with a manual you would need a 200........and at 85k is 30k difference or 3x 62,000 = 186,000klms

So its never going to pay off if you flog them way before then!

Cheers bru

[Skegbudley]

WTF - ZD30 using 25L/100km?

[raptorthumper]

Yep you have killed a few.

The fuel you use is 25l/100
Mine 13.5/100 (on 33's)

so assuming 10k difference in price and diesel at $1.40 - you would need to save:
25-13.5=11.5l/100 difference,
10,000/$1.40 = 7143L,

7143/11.5= 621 x 100k
or 62,111 klms to break even.

Seeing as you would not fit in a 76 and would cry with a manual you would need a 200........and at 85k is 30k difference or 3x 62,000 = 186,000klms

So its never going to pay off if you flog them way before then!

Cheers bru

Hey Bru that's pretty good. Do you regularly get 13.5 L/100 out of the 70 series V8 diesel.?? My two brothers, Dean and Brett both have 76 series GXL wagons and both of them say that about the best they get is 550 kms on 90 litres, which is 16.3 L/100. Most of the time they average 500 k's to 90 litres. They do sit on 110 kmhr + though.

_

[GBC]

Don't believe for a second that the navaras (d22) are any better, they just last a little longer. Plenty of cracked heads and holed pistons there too. And the 2003 upgrade was to cut an inch off the dipstick - the 2007/2008 models are getting around the magical 170 000 k.m. mark now and are crapping themselves just like the rest. If there was nothing inherently wrong with a zd30 there wouldn't be a class action won against nissan in europe and being mounted against themin oz at the moment.

[chunks]

I agree with awill4x4 300%. I have also seen an 05 model with a grenaded motor. I have one customer with a 3L Patrol, he has spent over $10k with us in less than 18 months.

Reliability issues aside, I don't know why anyone would want a 3L Patrol?! They are absolutely horrible to drive, totally mismatched engine for a large 4wd, the noise they emit is like nails on a chalk board, when you wind them over you're never entirely sure if and when they will fire into life...and then when you turn them off they rattle to a standstill. Horrible, horrible motor and up there with Nissan's worst. CRDs seem to be a lot better but time will tell how they last.

[Bingham]

WTF - ZD30 using 25L/100km?

These rates fully loaded driving semi hard up cape gulf. they are a thirsty machine at times.... Last one pulled 29L/100 once down hiway towing a quad, granted was in a rush for 800kms ..... as mentioned currently at best pulling 17 hiway running. They dont like any mods particullarly gear on roof when it comes to fuel usage. The extra drag and they get thristier than others it seems particularly the auto as it starts to skip around...

If it was standard and driven by a retiree you might be lucky enough to get 13. 200 serious be nice but when we turn them over at around 100 000km it wouldnt pay for it it seems.

I continue to buy them as they are the cheapest full size real 4wd with good resale.

Bru drives like a grandad hence his fuel consumption

Am intrigued to hear of possible class action. Long overdew i guess.....

[hulsty]

Hey Bru that's pretty good. Do you regularly get 13.5 L/100 out of the 70 series V8 diesel.?? My two brothers, Dean and Brett both have 76 series GXL wagons and both of them say that about the best they get is 550 kms on 90 litres, which is 16.3 L/100. Most of the time they average 500 k's to 90 litres. They do sit on 110 kmhr + though.

_

My dad recently returned from a 9000km return trip to the cape with his VDJ79 and a mates HDJ79, both loaded right up and towing, averaged ~16L/100km